Levels of conscious mind residing...

[C T]

In MM's example there is ample tangibility and openness. In this instance both are lacking, so the legitimacy is open to questioning. 

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

OK Jeff I don't wish to be pedantic - even though the term super-guru does appear in the OP in brackets and not parenthesis - so I assumed it was some kind of defined concept in your system.

 

No defined term. No specific system. As, I have repeatedly (and repeatedly) stated, it was only an attempt to give some context.

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think you have to accept you are making an enormous claim for a fellow DB - that he (or she!) has spent a year at some enormously 'high' level and still resides beyond the level of what any of our 'favourite gurus' might be at.  I can't answer for everyone else but I know that many DBs have no teacher while others , like myself, do have a teacher, but I don't have anything like a 'favourite guru' which sounds like something from the New Age Spiritual supermarket to me.   And it might surprise you to learn that I genuinely have no interest in how high he has climbed up the proverbial mountain - I am only interested to receive authentic teachings which avoid subjective self judgements.

 

Yes, I realize that I was making a claim for a fellow DB. Again, as stated multiple times, the purpose was a “shout out”.

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Thank you for your offer of giving me a comparison - but I assume you mean directly and not through words and as usual I will reject your offer as I am only interested in understanding what you were communicating in the OP.  You presumably thought this whole issue was important enough to let us all know about it - so to respect your wish I am trying to grasp what exactly you are saying.

 

No, I did not at all mean showing you directly, as I know your feelings on the topic. Additionally, such a showing would not work in such a way to give the true context of what I am trying to describe.

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

For instance:

 

"What people often call consciousness has a zero level, then many levels/layers of relative form and astral stuff, and then beyond that are the various formless realms."

 

Am I right in assuming that by 'zero level' you mean something like base-consciousness or underlying sentience or similar?  Also I am not sure what 'astral stuff' means and how that is different to the other levels and layers of relative form.  And sorry to be thick but how can there be various formless realms - if there are different realms then they must have defining characteristics surely - so I'm a bit puzzled by this.

 

No, you are not correct. Zero level would mean zero. Not some base consciousness or concept of “One”. Formless realms, would be “potential realms” before they have been defined in form. If they had defining characteristics, they would be form realms.

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Lastly when you say this member lived at a very high level for a year - do you mean internally? or in a cave somewhere or were they carrying on their daily life as well?  Just trying to get a clearer picture.

 

Thanks.

 

 

I think you are completely misunderstanding what I am saying with such a question. The perceptional concept of living in a cave (or even believing you are simiply a human living on this planet) is a local (or low level form) view.

[Jeff]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

Oh dang !  I thought this was going to be about levels of conscious mind .  Maybe some comparative mapping between  different systems and schemata        . 

 

 

 

 

Our group worked on one in 6 divisions of  yoga/magick as qualities of 'mind'  and their ability (for each) to lead either to enlightenment or ignorance .  In magick they are often referred to as  'trances'   (not the ordinary meaning , the meaning that we are nearly always in some form of 'trance' . )   Our group artist used a geometric design and appropriate colour divisions, and it was painted up as 'tracing board' for the group .

 

I also have my ' astro/psychological tree' model     (an adaption of the schemata on top left  above ) .

 

...  I am sure there are some great  Vedic and Buddhist models as well .

 

Thanks, I think such a discussion would be very interesting, but may be cleaner in a new thread of its own.

[Jeff]

38 minutes ago, C T said:

In MM's example there is ample tangibility and openness. In this instance both are lacking, so the legitimacy is open to questioning. 

 

The mother Meera example is also totally different than what I am describing. 

 

And yes, you have been very clear on your questioning of legitimacy point. In the future, to address such concerns, I will happily offer to prove or directly “show” what I am saying is possible/correct.

 

(and no worries Apech - I know you will never take me up on it...  )

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, Jetsun said:

She could probably hang out in the divine formless realm if she wanted, but it wouldn't be much use to anyone else, actually her doing that took a toll on her nervous system for many years so there is something noble and an element of sacrifice in her work, fortunately she now appears to be getting stronger. 

 

could you point me to a place were I can read about that?

[Jonesboy]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 9:32 AM, Jeff said:

The purpose of this thread is really just to highlight the accomplishment (or reality) of what one of our members has done for an extended period. What people often call consciousness has a zero level, then many levels/layers of relative form and astral stuff, and then beyond that are the various formless realms. While this member is now back to residing more at the higher end of form layers (super guru stuff), the member spent over a year residing at what can only be described astronomically high (or fine) levels of formless realms. It is hard to describe, but this is way beyond what some traditions call “god realms”. And if you think of your favorite guru of maybe residing in comparison of a mountain top in height, this is like living on the moon in comparison.

 

Just thought you might be interested. 

 

 

I figured at least one positive comment should show up in this thread.

 

Congrats to my very bad ass (inside joke) friend and thank you.

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I figured at least one positive comment should show up in this thread.

 

Congrats to my very bad ass (inside joke) friend and thank you.

 

So .... it's not you

[Apech]

53 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

No defined term. No specific system. As, I have repeatedly (and repeatedly) stated, it was only an attempt to give some context.

 

 

Yes, I realize that I was making a claim for a fellow DB. Again, as stated multiple times, the purpose was a “shout out”.

 

 

No, I did not at all mean showing you directly, as I know your feelings on the topic. Additionally, such a showing would not work in such a way to give the true context of what I am trying to describe.

 

 

No, you are not correct. Zero level would mean zero. Not some base consciousness or concept of “One”. Formless realms, would be “potential realms” before they have been defined in form. If they had defining characteristics, they would be form realms.

 

 

I think you are completely misunderstanding what I am saying with such a question. The perceptional concept of living in a cave (or even believing you are simiply a human living on this planet) is a local (or low level form) view.

 

Apech - end of term result 0/10 - must try harder.

[Jonesboy]

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

So .... it's not you

 

 

Way, way beyond me.

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

 

Way, way beyond me.

 

 

So glad I don't have to call you Mr. S. Guru.

 

 

[Jonesboy]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

So glad I don't have to call you Mr. S. Guru.

 

 

 

No ego here.

 

Mr. Guru is fine.

[Jetsun]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

could you point me to a place were I can read about that?

 

Not sure it's written about anywhere, its more from talking to people who have been following her over the decades and who have observed her state over time. 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Jetsun said:

I heard this story about a guy who took a really high dose of acid who during his trip started going through all the realms, so went through hell realms and heaven realms and all sorts of different places getting higher and higher until he finally broke through the highest realm.. to realise he was back exactly where he started, right here, now, this is it. 

 

The hardest and most challenging thing I think is to bring back whereever you go into your humanity, into now, otherwise whats the point , otherwise isn't it just another form of avoidance? Avoiding being here. 

 

There is a really interesting book about Mother Meera I read who was tutored as a child by Sri Aurobindo, and as a child they would visit all these different realms together , but she would go higher and higher until she broke through to a divine realm, but rather than stay there she found a way to bring down the Paranatman light from the divine realm into our humanity. So if you now go to see her in person she becomes a channel and brings down this divine light first through her hands into your head and then through her eyes into your body, the result of which dissolves people's most difficult karmic knots. She could probably hang out in the divine formless realm if she wanted, but it wouldn't be much use to anyone else, actually her doing that took a toll on her nervous system for many years so there is something noble and an element of sacrifice in her work, fortunately she now appears to be getting stronger. 

 

So if somebody is hanging out some place else so what?  Must be nice for them to take a holiday or extended break from being in the messiness that is our humanity, but at some point they have to come back. 

 

 

If someone is on an acid trip, they are not accessing any higher or formless realms. They are simply playing around in their own mind/subconscious. 

 

Also, if it is taking a toll on the nervous system, then the person is not residing at those levels. Believing that you are person, that is somehow pulling the light through your head and out your eyes is local mind duality, and is not at all the same as being the light itself.

[Jetsun]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

If someone is on an acid trip, they are not accessing any higher or formless realms. They are simply playing around in their own mind/subconscious. 

 

Maybe, maybe not, where do you think all these levels exist except not within mind? There is a story about when Ram Dass went to India and would go around giving LSD to Guru's and Saints to see how they react, then he met Neem Karoli Baba and he gave him enough LSD to knock out a horse and nothing happened, Baba then went on to tell him that LSD can bring you do God but ultimately its no use as you can't stay there with that method

 

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Also, if it is taking a toll on the nervous system, then the person is not residing at those levels. Believing that you are person, that is somehow pulling the light through your head and out your eyes is local mind duality, and is not at all the same as being the light itself.

 

It took toll because she was bringing that level down to this human level, bringing grace down to where people most need it in their bodies and in their lives, which has outstanding results for human transformation, she wasn't just hanging out in some transcendent realm for fun or for a holiday. You gain mastery over it by both being the light,being beyond the light and being nothing.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Jetsun said:

 

Maybe, maybe not, where do you think all these levels exist except not within mind? There is a story about when Ram Dass went to India and would go around giving LSD to Guru's and Saints to see how they react, then he met Neem Karoli Baba and he gave him enough LSD to knock out a horse and nothing happened, Baba then went on to tell him that LSD can bring you do God but ultimately its no use as you can't stay there with that method

 

Hopefully, that was a simple misquote or lack of understanding.  LSD or any form of drugs cannot bring you to God. But, drugs can definitely give you some fun experiences and trips.

 

1 minute ago, Jetsun said:

 

 

It took toll because she was bringing that level down to this human level, bringing grace down to where people most need it in their bodies and in their lives, which has outstanding results for human transformation, she wasn't just hanging out in some transcendent realm for fun or for a holiday. You gain mastery over it by both being the light,being beyond the light and being nothing.

 

Again, I think you are misunderstanding what I was previously saying. Also, one does not "bring down" grace. Grace is not something beyond or above you.  Grace is also not something that you can take drugs and suddenly receive.

[Jetsun]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

 

Hopefully, that was a simple misquote or lack of understanding.  LSD or any form of drugs cannot bring you to God. But, drugs can definitely give you some fun experiences and trips.

 

That is what Ram Dass says happened, no misquote

 

 

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

 

 

Again, I think you are misunderstanding what I was previously saying. Also, one does not "bring down" grace. Grace is not something beyond or above you.  Grace is also not something that you can take drugs and suddenly receive.

 

Grace is always available it is just a matter of opening to it, so a drug could help open you up to grace by lowering your defences and opening you to what is already there trying to move you. Not that i'm massively into drugs though or recommend them, my original mention of them was more to highlight that what really matters is being here not in some other realm.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Mother Meera brings down grace to help people in their most difficult suffering and karmic issues though, there are thousands of people she has helped and have stories about it. I know someone personally who received her Darshan just once and it completely changed his life, he transformed his life from one dedicated to selfish egotism to one of service almost overnight after seeing her.

 

[C T]

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

I figured at least one positive comment should show up in this thread.

 

Congrats to my very bad ass (inside joke) friend and thank you.

What exactly are you trying to imply with the top statement? That your interpretation of what's positive and negative is the only measure? 

 

As far as i am concerned, the OP's boldish declaration is conjecture - a subjective interpretation from Jeff, and because it was posted in GD, its an open topic where comments/rebuttals seeking clarifications and substantiations are the norm, though none has been forthcoming, but thats already been expected. If this is interpreted to have been negative and ill-motived, then I will question the validity of the premise even more. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by C T

[Jonesboy]

4 minutes ago, C T said:

What exactly are you trying to imply with the top statement? That your interpretation of what's positive and negative is the only measure? 

 

As far as i am concerned, the OP's boldish declaration is conjecture - a subjective interpretation from Jeff, and because it was posted in GD, its an open topic where comments/rebuttals seeking clarifications and substantiations are the norm, though none has been forthcoming, but thats already been expected. If this is interpreted to have been negative and ill-motived, then I will question the validity of the premise even more. 

 

My post speaks for itself, if you want to read a whole bunch into it go ahead but in no way am I saying that my interpretation is the only measure of what is positive or negative.

 

I think you are doing a lot of projecting which is fine. Just leave me out of them

[C T]

36 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

That is what Ram Dass says happened, no misquote

 

 

 

Grace is always available it is just a matter of opening to it, so a drug could help open you up to grace by lowering your defences and opening you to what is already there trying to move you. Not that i'm massively into drugs though or recommend them, my original mention of them was more to highlight that what really matters is being here not in some other realm.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Mother Meera brings down grace to help people in their most difficult suffering and karmic issues though, there are thousands of people she has helped and have stories about it. I know someone personally who received her Darshan just once and it completely changed his life, he transformed his life from one dedicated to selfish egotism to one of service almost overnight after seeing her.

 

Im almost sorry now that Mother Meera's good name and status has been brought up and allowed to be incorrectly scrutinized. As mentioned, Her work is tangibly felt by 10s of thousands, whereas here we have an id-less internet personality shouting kudos to another id-less internet personality, and defending the action, moreover, with more convoluted explanations piled one on top of another. Its just a bit hard to swallow, and even sounds bizarre, if i may say so. 

[C T]

9 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

My post speaks for itself, if you want to read a whole bunch into it go ahead but in no way am I saying that my interpretation is the only measure of what is positive or negative.

 

I think you are doing a lot of projecting which is fine. Just leave me out of them

Projecting nothing. Your statement needs no such attempt. 

[Jeff]

46 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

That is what Ram Dass says happened, no misquote

 

Ok. Simply put, all drugs are an inherent limiter.  Can only go so deep when focused on some drug experience, and such a drug induced experience is not being one with God.

 

I am also not saying that there is anything wrong with drugs, just saying the depth is very shallow.

 

46 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

Grace is always available it is just a matter of opening to it, so a drug could help open you up to grace by lowering your defences and opening you to what is already there trying to move you. Not that i'm massively into drugs though or recommend them, my original mention of them was more to highlight that what really matters is being here not in some other realm.

 

Drugs do not lower your defenses, they simply affect your conscious mind.  

 

46 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

There is no doubt in my mind that Mother Meera brings down grace to help people in their most difficult suffering and karmic issues though, there are thousands of people she has helped and have stories about it. I know someone personally who received her Darshan just once and it completely changed his life, he transformed his life from one dedicated to selfish egotism to one of service almost overnight after seeing her.

 

 

Very nice to hear.

[Jeff]

15 minutes ago, C T said:

Im almost sorry now that Mother Meera's good name and status has been brought up and allowed to be incorrectly scrutinized. As mentioned, Her work is tangibly felt by 10s of thousands, whereas here we have an id-less internet personality shouting kudos to another id-less internet personality, and defending the action, moreover, with more convoluted explanations piled one on top of another. Its just a bit hard to swallow, and even sounds bizarre, if i may say so. 

 

I dont think anyone is questioning Mother Meera's good name.  We are simply discussing the way Jetsun was describing what she was doing.  The issue is more in the same post he made a statement about using drugs to realize God.

 

I cannot ever imagine someone like Mother Meera telling people that using things like LSD (and other drugs) would be an effective path.

[Jeff]

41 minutes ago, C T said:

 

As far as i am concerned, the OP's boldish declaration is conjecture - a subjective interpretation from Jeff, and because it was posted in GD, its an open topic where comments/rebuttals seeking clarifications and substantiations are the norm, though none has been forthcoming, but thats already been expected. If this is interpreted to have been negative and ill-motived, then I will question the validity of the premise even more. 

 

What specific clarification are you expecting?  What would you like to be forthcoming that has not already come up?

 

Additionally since the topic seems to have moved on, do you believe like Jetsun does that drugs like LSD lead one to higher states of realization? 

[Jetsun]

21 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I dont think anyone is questioning Mother Meera's good name.  We are simply discussing the way Jetsun was describing what she was doing.  The issue is more in the same post he made a statement about using drugs to realize God.

 

I cannot ever imagine someone like Mother Meera telling people that using things like LSD (and other drugs) would be an effective path.

 

I have clarified that I don't endorse drugs and don't endorse it as a path, as I said it was just an analogy for the importance of being here.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

 

I have clarified that I don't endorse drugs and don't endorse it as a path, as I said it was just an analogy for the importance of being here.

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I am saying something different. Specifically, it is not possible to use drugs to access higher levels of realization.  The best you can do with it is a cool "astral" trip. False lights, not the true/clear one.