Levels of conscious mind residing...

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

If someone is on an acid trip, they are not accessing any higher or formless realms. They are simply playing around in their own mind/subconscious. 

 

Also, if it is taking a toll on the nervous system, then the person is not residing at those levels. Believing that you are person, that is somehow pulling the light through your head and out your eyes is local mind duality, and is not at all the same as being the light itself.

 

 

There is a system that has tried to map consciousness using western science 'ideas' , concepts and terms  ;  Exopsychology.

 

Its basis is "Consciousness is chemical " .  In this system LSD is seen as a trigger that can indeed access ' higher and formless realms.   Every level is associated / triggered by  / seeking escape in   various types of drugs -

 

 

( ' Venus ' )

 

EG  Alcohol has two effects ; initially  ( a couple of drinks or a few )   The Socio sexual circuit  ....  then after  'too many ' it triggers the  'anal / territorial circuit

 

 

 

What the fuck you lookin' at ? ! 

 

( ' Mars '  )

 

OR   Circuit 1   -   Bio survival circuit  , centred in the brain stem and hind brain - related to the basic polarity base line ' flight fight syndrome '    related to  opiates ... which , initially, can blunt awareness of everything except a warm glowing 'in the womb' ecstatic feeling / pain relief .  

 

Regardless of any 'forays' into other circuits / states of being / consciousness  one carries their propensities (chemical makeups ) with them . You got ( supposedly ) as much chance of   being wholly in another  state as   some one with clinical depression or a lack of lithium in their brain has . 

 

But according to this theory  LSD is THE KEY   ( neuro-electric circuit )  to be able to reprogram the other controlling circuits . Of course this has to be done the right way ( again according to that system ) ; set, setting,  qualified guide,  etc .

 

Just dropping some  ( supposed )  acid and trying to nut it out yourself  (especially with no background in eclectic consciousness mapping and exploration systems -  Psychonautics ) ....   good  luck with that one !

 

 

( ' Mercury ' )

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks, I think such a discussion would be very interesting, but may be cleaner in a new thread of its own.

 

Agreed, but  my main point is , your descriptions of this persons  level of consciousness  experience could do with some clear terms , as it is a little hard to know what you are trying to describe 

 

Eg;  "  many levels/layers of relative form and astral stuff, and then beyond that are the various formless realms "

 

Sorry ,  but it does sound rather New Age, in that .... errrmmm  .....     well,   it doesn't sound like you know  the subject very well .... to put it simply and bluntly - without meaning to be offensive.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Nungali

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Jetsun said:

 

Maybe, maybe not, where do you think all these levels exist except not within mind? There is a story about when Ram Dass went to India and would go around giving LSD to Guru's and Saints to see how they react, then he met Neem Karoli Baba and he gave him enough LSD to knock out a horse and nothing happened, Baba then went on to tell him that LSD can bring you do God but ultimately its no use as you can't stay there with that method

 

Same with Guru Maharishi   ( I think )   some of his 'hip' followers gave him a high dose of good stuff . He took it, after a bit started meditating  ...... then began smiling ... then after a  while ;   " This is a very interesting drug !  "

 

I believe he had previously encountered that 'realm '  via other methods .

 

(of course there are many methods, not just drugs - even in exo-psychology ; a 'level' or circuit  can have association with a drug , a 'location for consciousness' *  , a stage in individual development, a stage in  the human  race's overall development / evolution ,  etc

 

*  eg . Neuro-genetic consciousness is said to be 'cellular consciousness'   or  'reside in the DNA . With  Circuit 8  - 'The neuro-atomic metaphysiological ' {Leary } ;  the location of consciousness is said to be  'non local'  { The non-local quantum circuit - Wilson }  ) .

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

I state very clearly on all of my posts..."No worries... I am only speaking on my own authority." That being said, yes I am definitively stating my position that it doesn't work, that it is only a not very deep/astral experience.  Additionally, even the belief itself that one is "in a body" and that can be affected by "drugs" in the first place shows a trapped/limiting belief.

 

While not experienced with things like LSD, I have tried Ayahuasaca, knowledgeable of the effects and what it does related to the mind and energy body. Also, as I have repeatedly stated, I am not doubting that the people you have met have had some really cool astral trips. The trips are so fun/interesting, that most such users continuing taking/addicted to those drugs for their entire lives.

 

But, maybe the issue is simply definition. I do not really consider astral realms a big deal, maybe that is the difference. But, astral realms are not even in the neighborhood of Dao or being one with God.

 

On proof of my position, this is an easy one. Drug based astral trips are so unstable, they unwind with any meaningful outside energy impact and all of the self delusion comes crashing down. So CT, feel free to find yourself someone that you consider totally legit that uses psychedelics, and I will remotely change his perceived experience.

 

Once again definitively my position... It is not possible to realize anything near clear light/Dao/God with using drugs.

 

So says Jeff...  

 

The issue with  Ayahuasaca is it is (supposed to be )  a brew of various ingredients . Who knows what you or others took ?

 

" The ingestion of ayahuasca can also cause significant, but temporary, emotional and psychological distress. Excessive use can lead to serotonin syndrome, with symptoms such as tremors, diarrhea, autonomic instability, hyperthermia, sweating, muscle spasms and possible death. Long-term negative effects are not known.^[43][44] A few deaths due to participation in the consumption of ayahuasca have been reported.^[45][46][47] Some of the deaths may have been due to unscreened preexisting heart conditions, interaction with drugs, such as antidepressants, recreational drugs, caffeine, or nicotine, or any of the various additional plants that are frequently added to brews.^[

 

- wiki , my emphasis

 

It could be like taking 'trips' or 'tabs'    , ie,  LSD    +   ?      ie, not pure good quality .  In the past 'acid tabs' used o include  small amounts of strychnine . 

[Jeff]

32 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Agreed, but  my main point is , your descriptions of this persons  level of consciousness  experience could do with some clear terms , as it is a little hard to know what you are trying to describe 

 

Eg;  "  many levels/layers of relative form and astral stuff, and then beyond that are the various formless realms "

 

Sorry ,  but it does sound rather New Age, in that .... errrmmm  .....     well,   it doesn't sound like you know  the subject very well .... to put it simply and bluntly - without meaning to be offensive.

 

Ok, let’s forget about the other person completely. I would be happy to discuss such levels. Would you like to pick a starting point, or should I?

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

The issue with  Ayahuasaca is it is (supposed to be )  a brew of various ingredients . Who knows what you or others took ?

 

" The ingestion of ayahuasca can also cause significant, but temporary, emotional and psychological distress. Excessive use can lead to serotonin syndrome, with symptoms such as tremors, diarrhea, autonomic instability, hyperthermia, sweating, muscle spasms and possible death. Long-term negative effects are not known.^[43][44] A few deaths due to participation in the consumption of ayahuasca have been reported.^[45][46][47] Some of the deaths may have been due to unscreened preexisting heart conditions, interaction with drugs, such as antidepressants, recreational drugs, caffeine, or nicotine, or any of the various additional plants that are frequently added to brews.^[

 

- wiki , my emphasis

 

It could be like taking 'trips' or 'tabs'    , ie,  LSD    +   ?      ie, not pure good quality .  In the past 'acid tabs' used o include  small amounts of strychnine . 

 

And your point is what? That you believe that such drugs are an effective path to higher levels of realization?

[Wizz]

39 minutes ago, Jeff said:

You said...

 

 

How would you paraphrase that statement (and maybe attempt to add a little humor to the thread)?

 

par·a·phrase

ˈperəˌfrāz/

verb

verb: paraphrase; 3rd person present: paraphrases; past tense: paraphrased; past participle: paraphrased; gerund or present participle: paraphrasing

1. express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity.

 

If you twist my words just to make humor out of it with no greater clarity achieved you can't really call that paraphrasing. I believe there is something going on between you and that individual, its an energy transfer and that is what I was referring to but ur trying to divert the attention from this just to prove some of your level points - probably trying to imply that I'm into some kind of duality thinking of you as a dude that shoots energy out of his head as if the rest of us aren't able to make the same conclusions on duality. Also I already told what I think of these types of level classifications in my first post here which are just mind concoctions but u haven't made a comment about it.

 

To continue.. For example when your physical body dies (feel free to paraphrase) and everyone at your funeral see's with their physical eyes your dead body that used to type on dao bums I believe this individual you speak of would loose all his levels and powers within a month or even within days from that moment on, because your SOUL would be so far away with no physical body to channel it and neither astral body present here so this energy transfer that is going on between you on regular basis won't happen in the same manner (you won't be able to talk to this person as before and physical presence DOES have an effect energetically a lot). What then? If that happens it would mean that you who or whatever you are will fail the mysterious apprentice. And to make the matter worse this individual might think that all astral stuff (which most that comment on it have very little experience with it) is "lower" therefore not something to be pursued (since the astral body is in contact with the soul it has its own values but these are undermined with the "lower" stuff) which will just lead to a guaranteed failure and to ordinary death in the end. In a less dramatic scenario you would be like what Jesus stands for today, a religious myth that is told in stories which are not as nearly as powerful when he was present here alive on Earth.

 

But since you say this person is completely stable on is own then there is nothing to be worried about right?

 

When your astral body disintegrates because you left it undeveloped your soul will know that its because it wasn't quite under your power to control it but rather at the very edge of it as if its outside of its range. Then you might as well say that it seemed as if your soul visited different dimensions of being which in turn produced a impression you have a body.

 

Just my take on it.. 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

And your point is what?

 

I just defined clearly a point I was making in the post above this one that you quoted .

 

and yes, I thought I did outline the point that such drugs can lead to higher realisations (  with the qualifications I outlined above )

 

and the point that some  substances have uncontrolled additives  and to beware of sources .

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

 

That you believe that such drugs are an effective path to higher levels of realization?

 

Certainly !    I gave up LSD years and years ago,  after the pure supply got shut down.  I feel no need now to take any type of hallucinogen. Yet, the experiences I had on it , in concert with managing it properly,  and giving it all time to bed in to 'normal consciousness', to me, have been invaluable in certain areas of perception and realizations  ... many realisations !

 

I have seen others have them too, and carry on into their life afterwards.

 

Myfirst real  LSD experience  , it was a real shock to see my false self, that had been previously enmeshed in a total false mind set about  many things  .   The realisation that things were connected in a wholeness or a oneness was a biggie for me back then .  Of course one can theorise and postulate about such things, but to perceive them is another experience.

[Nungali]

... and  that is without even addressing shamanism  (but someone else has )

 

' Westerners ' , Buddhists,  Hindus , etc   no one holds a monopoly in this field,  all methods are valid as long as they give results . corrupted  methods or substances do not count ,  just as a fake Daoist  (or any other type of ) master  and his followers should not  be a condemnation for all of Daoism.

 

But then again I  following an eclectic path and have an anthropological focus ( ie. the experience of people regardless of time , location and culture is seen as equally valid  and contributing parts of the human experience and  consciousness.

[C T]

Thanks for the anecdotal sharings, Nungali. 

 

Good, straightforward accounts of personal experiences is always refreshing to read,

more so when its actually coherently put. 

 

Hopefully the gods will smile on you too.

[allinone]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Great example here ^  .  Even in posts like these  at least a level of consciousness is more clearly defined  by a borrowed word  (yet still contains some ambiguity )

 

    

 

Spoiler

 

Akanishtha (Skt. Akaniṣṭha; Tib. འོག་མིན་, Omin; Wyl. 'og min) —The word "Akanishtha" means 'not below', or 'above all'. It refers to the pure abodes whose characteristic is, according to the Omniscient Longchenpa, that there is nothing above them, and there are no features from elsewhere that surpass them.^[1] So, the name 'Akanishtha' is used throughout the teachings to refer to different abodes, which all share the common characteristic of being the highest, in relation to specific criteria. The great Indian master Buddhaguhya distinguishes six different ways of using the name Akanishtha. Longchenpa speaks of three types of Akanishtha in relation to the three kayas.

1. The highest heaven of the form realm. According to Mahayana, buddhas first reach full enlightenment in Akanishtha, and then manifest enlightenment through a nirmanakaya body in the human realm.
2. Akanishtha (Tib. འོག་མིན་སྟུག་པོ་བཀོད་པའི་ཞིང་ཁམས་, Wyl. 'og min stug po bkod pa'i zhing khams) or Omin Chenpo (Tib. འོག་མིན་ཆེན་པོ་, Wyl. 'og min chen po), in Vajrayana, also refers to the pure sambhogakaya field from which emanate all pure nirmanakaya fields. In the three kaya mandala offering of the Longchen Nyingtik Ngöndro, Akanishtha is also referred to as 'the highest heaven of great bliss, the realm of Ghanavyūha' (Tib. སྟུག་པོ་བཀོད་པ་, Wyl. stug po bkod pa).
3. Akanishtha is also the name of Vairochana's buddha field.

 

1.  

- Wiki .

 

i see i have unitarian/oneness clingance. Now if i cultivate that then i feel sorrow. So it is a good shortcut to that feeling. That doesn't mean i reject that but will abuse that point every time to get that feeling. Basically 1st layer is form, its there as a idea now i can notice that and get a feel. Feeling is a second layer.

---

I think its the same thing where some peeps try to take down ancient forests for quick profit. So basically the treehuggers can't let go and accept that world will be destroyed its the faith.

---

and treehuggers later come and say told ya so. It feels extremly salty.

---

so knowing the both aspects, you get a perception.

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

Moon and crescent > trinity

Edited September 26, 2017 by allinone
*star

[C T]

Allinone.. are you able to write and express yourself in plain language for the benefit of those of us who are not well-able for crypto-spiritual babble? 

 

Just wondering. If you can't, its understandable. No pressure. 

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I just defined clearly a point I was making in the post above this one that you quoted .

 

and yes, I thought I did outline the point that such drugs can lead to higher realisations (  with the qualifications I outlined above )

 

and the point that some  substances have uncontrolled additives  and to beware of sources .

 

Certainly !    I gave up LSD years and years ago,  after the pure supply got shut down.  I feel no need now to take any type of hallucinogen. Yet, the experiences I had on it , in concert with managing it properly,  and giving it all time to bed in to 'normal consciousness', to me, have been invaluable in certain areas of perception and realizations  ... many realisations !

 

I have seen others have them too, and carry on into their life afterwards.

 

Myfirst real  LSD experience  , it was a real shock to see my false self, that had been previously enmeshed in a total false mind set about  many things  .   The realisation that things were connected in a wholeness or a oneness was a biggie for me back then .  Of course one can theorise and postulate about such things, but to perceive them is another experience.

 

Thank you for sharing. Nice to hear that you feel no need to take any type of hallucinogen. Are your spiritual experiences that you have now the same as when you were using the LSD? Or are they deeper in some way now?

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, Baloony said:

 

par·a·phrase

ˈperəˌfrāz/

verb

verb: paraphrase; 3rd person present: paraphrases; past tense: paraphrased; past participle: paraphrased; gerund or present participle: paraphrasing

1. express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity.

 

If you twist my words just to make humor out of it with no greater clarity achieved you can't really call that paraphrasing. I believe there is something going on between you and that individual, its an energy transfer and that is what I was referring to but ur trying to divert the attention from this just to prove some of your level points - probably trying to imply that I'm into some kind of duality thinking of you as a dude that shoots energy out of his head as if the rest of us aren't able to make the same conclusions on duality. Also I already told what I think of these types of level classifications in my first post here which are just mind concoctions but u haven't made a comment about it.

 

To continue.. For example when your physical body dies (feel free to paraphrase) and everyone at your funeral see's with their physical eyes your dead body that used to type on dao bums I believe this individual you speak of would loose all his levels and powers within a month or even within days from that moment on, because your SOUL would be so far away with no physical body to channel it and neither astral body present here so this energy transfer that is going on between you on regular basis won't happen in the same manner (you won't be able to talk to this person as before and physical presence DOES have an effect energetically a lot). What then? If that happens it would mean that you who or whatever you are will fail the mysterious apprentice. And to make the matter worse this individual might think that all astral stuff (which most that comment on it have very little experience with it) is "lower" therefore not something to be pursued (since the astral body is in contact with the soul it has its own values but these are undermined with the "lower" stuff) which will just lead to a guaranteed failure and to ordinary death in the end. In a less dramatic scenario you would be like what Jesus stands for today, a religious myth that is told in stories which are not as nearly as powerful when he was present here alive on Earth.

 

Very interesting concept, and thanks for sharing your views. What you are describing is a very real guru type dynamic. You can see it more often when the guru type dies, and then all of the people who have been sort of drafting off the energy of the guru, feel a massive drop and kind of lose it.

 

But, in this particular case, the example is not relevant for a couple of reasons. First, anyone who becomes stable at what many call “light level”, is stable in their own right. Or in your example case, is a guru in their own right and has their own “source”. Secondly, regarding me specifically, I do not transmit energy in the way you have described, specifically such that the dependencies you describe do not happen. If you read my experiences thread, you will see that I touch on some of the problems that can come up with those kinds of energy dependencies.

 

10 hours ago, Baloony said:

But since you say this person is completely stable on is own then there is nothing to be worried about right?

 

Yes, absolutely nothing to worry about for this person. But, as stated above, there are situations where other people who are not yet stable could be effected. You personally have felt the relative drop effect after things like a dive wear off.

 

10 hours ago, Baloony said:

When your astral body disintegrates because you left it undeveloped your soul will know that its because it wasn't quite under your power to control it but rather at the very edge of it as if its outside of its range. Then you might as well say that it seemed as if your soul visited different dimensions of being which in turn produced a impression you have a body.

 

Just my take on it.. 

 

The astral body is a weak subset of what you call the “soul”, the person we are discussing is well beyond such concepts of the astral body. Or you could say, the person is naturally based in the soul (your terms).

[allinone]

55 minutes ago, C T said:

Allinone.. are you able to write and express yourself in plain language for the benefit of those of us who are not well-able for crypto-spiritual babble? 

 

Just wondering. If you can't, its understandable. No pressure. 

 

i think not. I suck at literature.

Like in a game.

100 bronze gets 1 silver, 100 silver gets you 1 gold, 100 gold gets you one liquid element.

 

so lots of repetitions. 100K reps to get 1 liquid element.

[C T]

7 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

i think not. I suck at literature.

Like in a game.

100 bronze gets 1 silver, 100 silver gets you 1 gold, 100 gold gets you one liquid element.

 

so lots of repetitions. 100K reps to get 1 liquid element.

Lol ok. Carry on then

[wilfred]

well presumably the benefits of posting this thread outweighed any negatives in causing a stir and the heated debate that followed?

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, wilfred said:

well presumably the benefits of posting this thread outweighed any negatives in causing a stir and the heated debate that followed?

Always, in my opinion.  Negatives mean nothing as long as we can let them go.  It are the positives that result from the negatives that matter.

 

[HorizonLight]

On 9/23/2017 at 6:32 PM, Jeff said:

The purpose of this thread is really just to highlight the accomplishment (or reality) of what one of our members has done for an extended period. What people often call consciousness has a zero level, then many levels/layers of relative form and astral stuff, and then beyond that are the various formless realms. While this member is now back to residing more at the higher end of form layers (super guru stuff), the member spent over a year residing at what can only be described astronomically high (or fine) levels of formless realms. It is hard to describe, but this is way beyond what some traditions call “god realms”. And if you think of your favorite guru of maybe residing in comparison of a mountain top in height, this is like living on the moon in comparison.

 

Just thought you might be interested. 

 

Forum is a place where people speak. I mean, you write your opinion on something or your experience and you probably won't be understood by everyone because words are confusing when you're not in the same line with somebody. So, one really has to put effort to be understandable. If there is no effort, you feel some kind of a trick in it, something is hidden and you want it to be revealed. If you're in the same line with the words being said, everything will have sense and you will be affected somehow by them. Best communication is achieved when you know someone's dictionary (meaning words that carry a meaning and which when combined make a concept that you want to share and highlight - with members of this forum), than you understand.

 

The question that I ask myself when talking/writing about something is: with this said, do I expect that everyone understands my dictionary? Am I projecting something I didn't say anything about really? Or I really want to share something so that I can see someone understood what I was TRYING to share. For example in your post, everything you wrote before: "Just thought you might be interested." for me is actually similar to a longer version of a headline in some Hollywood magazine. You know, it attracts my curiosity but it doesn't mean anything actually. So, if it doesn't mean anything and it's just news, it is normal that I want to know one more little thing: a name/nickname/avatar of 'our' member! Because what else do I have to say about it and what else does anyone has to say about it if you expect that everyone understands your concept (are in the line with you). We could all just agree with it and our normal, boring, not in Hollywood life goes on. With that said, I feel your point of this post was achieved. I understood that 'Jeff ' is in state of some PERSONAL good feeling about some member who achieved some not zero level of some consciousness that 'Jeff' metaphorically measured as 'moonlike' in comparison to 'mountaintoplike' and he wanted to share that good news because he thought I might be interested. And it's ok! I see the heart in it. But also (in this personal thing) it seems that 'Jeff' could have some sort of problem with some 'zero levels' and 'relative form layers and astral stuff' and 'super guru stuff' because he used words that project those things as being not good enough as 'living on the moon'. And I could also ask myself (if I choose to go with it as I believe 'Jeff'), why the hell this "member is now back to residing more at the higher end of form layers (super guru stuff)" if 'Jeff' believes that 'formless levels' are qualified as being best, the only and main goal, last and only true conscious residence (because this is news about great achievement)? With this said, it seems that 'Jeff' definitely has to put some effort in all this, there could be some mess in his own belief system.

 

Please, correct me if I'm wrong about your quality measured system of levels of consciousness. All in all is confusing. For me, conscious beings are all in one with every state of consciousness that has it's own qualities. In dreaming, I consciously saw and visited different worlds and levels of existence and there is definitely no measure of better or worse. There is just what it is. I would say it is freedom, personal and at the same time nonpersonal choice, a path that one chooses to go on and achieve. It's about the spirit, the heart, the death, the energy, the will, the intent, the responsibility and impeccability and every other word I could use to touch the heart of it's mysteriousness. If 'moonlike' state of consciousness includes all possible states then that 'member' could know all it's qualities and astral won't be 'stuff' but residence of it's own, simple as that. So 'favorite guru' state has it's own quality state and if you say it like that, you definitely have some personal judgement that I'm not familiar with. Do you want to break my belief in my 'super guru stuff' by making it less worth and show me something better? Please say if it's so.

 

And, who the heck is the man? Is he traveling through different states of consciousness? How is he doing that? Is he the 'super super guru stuff'? If there are no words to describe it, then you can just do it. Ok, I came to an end of my words. Thanks for paying attention.  

Edited September 26, 2017 by HorizonLight

[C T]

Haha well said.

 

I see an invitation for you soon.

[HorizonLight]

1 minute ago, C T said:

Haha well said.

 

I see an invitation for you soon.

What invitation?

[dwai]

I don't understand all the brouhaha over an innocuous post congratulating someone... 

Why does it bother so many that they are driven to argue and react in such a strong manner?

 

I see a bunch of people who are reacting because something about the OP rankles them...why is that so?

 

Isn't it better to just live and let live? 

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

 

Isn't it better to just live and let live? 

Think we should try that?  It would be something special and unique.

 

[C T]

11 minutes ago, dwai said:

I don't understand all the brouhaha over an innocuous post congratulating someone... 

Why does it bother so many that they are driven to argue and react in such a strong manner?

 

I see a bunch of people who are reacting because something about the OP rankles them...why is that so?

 

Isn't it better to just live and let live? 

speaking for myself.. Im not rankled, but concerned because of the implications of posting whats as good as gibberish in the GD forum. It can open up inexperienced readers' gullibility, and there are no shortage of them in DDB. 

 

You might not see the gibberishness of it, but i do. You see.. we all view things differently, reflect, and respond differently. We are allowed that here, no?