Levels of conscious mind residing...

[C T]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I am saying something different.  The best you can do with it is a cool "astral" trip. False lights, not the true/clear one.

This is the thing that i find odd with some of your statements, Jeff... that there is much effort put into attempting to put yourself as an authority on things which (I am pretty sure) you haven't had much exposure to, for example: "Specifically, it is not possible to use drugs to access higher levels of realization." And how did you come to this steadfast conclusion?

 

Im not saying its possible either, but am not denying the probability because its a vast world out there, with remote tribes and shamanic practices in the Amazon, Andes, Sulawesi, Borneo, Indonesia (Bali), the Andaman islands, India, China, Africa, Australia... who likely have such vast experiences with psychedelics that it would be impossible and even silly for me to emphatically deny at least a genuine possibility that our knowledge and applications of 'drugs' to this point pales by comparison, and comparatively appear like child's play compared to what is effectively a (pun intended) mind-bending plethora of fungi, herbs, roots, bark, leaves and saps, even certain bugs for that matter. 

 

For the sake of emphasis, I reckon that if i were to return a number of lifetimes in a similar existence, in all likelihood I will gain perhaps only a fractional improvement on present knowledge of the natural wisdom and innate skills appropriated to these tribespeople. Therefore, i'd be very slow to utter 'not possible' in this regard (to the unfathomable efficacy of psychedelics in mind expansion exercises).  

 

Those who have travelled any of those places mentioned on spiritual journeys may concur, at least a little even, that psychedelics do indeed speed up the opening of proper dormant forces when used under guidance. Although personally not a user and supporter, I have met some Indian, Nepali and Bengali holy men (sadhus) and also local Malaysian natives, who have pacified my curiosity on more than one occasion where i was highly suspicious of their self-professed connection with transcendental realms. 

 

 

[dawei]

2 hours ago, C T said:

What exactly are you trying to imply with the top statement? That your interpretation of what's positive and negative is the only measure? 

 

As far as i am concerned, the OP's boldish declaration is conjecture - a subjective interpretation from Jeff, and because it was posted in GD, its an open topic where comments/rebuttals seeking clarifications and substantiations are the norm, though none has been forthcoming, but thats already been expected. If this is interpreted to have been negative and ill-motived, then I will question the validity of the premise even more. 

 

Wouldn't it be easier to find out if the person in question would be willing to talk in chat or something and explain things?

 

Jeff has worked with him for many years, and myself a few years.  Anyone who can 'see' him during that period can attest to his state/level. But maybe coming from him it would be less conjecture ?

[C T]

9 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Wouldn't it be easier to find out if the person in question would be willing to talk in chat or something and explain things?

 

Jeff has worked with him for many years, and myself a few years.  Anyone who can 'see' him during that period can attest to his state/level. But maybe coming from him it would be less conjecture ?

Thank you, Dawei. I know your suggestion was made with a sincere heart. 

 

I have no curiosities to satisfy, nor the need to seek super guru stuff like some others. Although a mediocre practitioner of low stature, my affinity with spiritual practice really did begin when i was a wobbly toddler whose favourite seat in my grandfather's house was on his tiger rug in his private shrine room, which he shares with no one but not once was i deterred and not once was he able to deny me entrance. You know how soft grandparents can be.... im now 57, but still have lots to learn - what to, is best left to my own intuitive self to tell me.

 

I only ask for appropriate, sensible and properly explained answers from Jeff from time to time in relation to some (not all) posts of his that sets off my doubtmeter with much excitement. 

[Fa Xin]

8 minutes ago, C T said:

Thank you, Dawei. I know your suggestion was made with a sincere heart. 

 

I have no curiosities to satisfy, nor the need to seek super guru stuff like some others. Although a mediocre practitioner of low stature, my affinity with spiritual practice really did begin when i was a wobbly toddler whose favourite seat in my grandfather's house was on his tiger rug in his private shrine room, which he shares with no one but not once was i deterred and not once was he able to deny me entrance. You know how soft grandparents can be.... im now 57, but still have lots to learn - what to, is best left to my own intuitive self to tell me.

 

I only ask for appropriate, sensible and properly explained answers from Jeff from time to time in relation to some (not all) posts of his that sets off my doubtmeter with much excitement. 

Loved your story about your grandfather. 

Gave me goose bumps

thanks for sharing. 😊

[C T]

20 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Loved your story about your grandfather. 

Gave me goose bumps

thanks for sharing. 😊

simple, honest and truthful words can have that effect on me too. 

 

As my Buddhist friend once said, "While others may have their mystical prophets and immortal sages, as Buddhists, our only prophets and immortal wisdom teachers take the form of ageing, sickness, and death." This realistic, completely ordinary call to awakening has been consistent and unbroken from the time Gautama first turned the wheel of Dharma and began teaching. 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, C T said:

This is the thing that i find odd with some of your statements, Jeff... that there is much effort put into attempting to put yourself as an authority on things which (I am pretty sure) you haven't had much exposure to, for example: "Specifically, it is not possible to use drugs to access higher levels of realization." And how did you come to this steadfast conclusion?

 

Im not saying its possible either, but am not denying the probability because its a vast world out there, with remote tribes and shamanic practices in the Amazon, Andes, Sulawesi, Borneo, Indonesia (Bali), the Andaman islands, India, China, Africa, Australia... who likely have such vast experiences with psychedelics that it would be impossible and even silly for me to emphatically deny at least a genuine possibility that our knowledge and applications of 'drugs' to this point pales by comparison, and comparatively appear like child's play compared to what is effectively a (pun intended) mind-bending plethora of fungi, herbs, roots, bark, leaves and saps, even certain bugs for that matter. 

 

For the sake of emphasis, I reckon that if i were to return a number of lifetimes in a similar existence, in all likelihood I will gain perhaps only a fractional improvement on present knowledge of the natural wisdom and innate skills appropriated to these tribespeople. Therefore, i'd be very slow to utter 'not possible' in this regard (to the unfathomable efficacy of psychedelics in mind expansion exercises).  

 

Those who have travelled any of those places mentioned on spiritual journeys may concur, at least a little even, that psychedelics do indeed speed up the opening of proper dormant forces when used under guidance. Although personally not a user and supporter, I have met some Indian, Nepali and Bengali holy men (sadhus) and also local Malaysian natives, who have pacified my curiosity on more than one occasion where i was highly suspicious of their self-professed connection with transcendental realms. 

 

 

I state very clearly on all of my posts..."No worries... I am only speaking on my own authority." That being said, yes I am definitively stating my position that it doesn't work, that it is only a not very deep/astral experience.  Additionally, even the belief itself that one is "in a body" and that can be affected by "drugs" in the first place shows a trapped/limiting belief.

 

While not experienced with things like LSD, I have tried Ayahuasaca, knowledgeable of the effects and what it does related to the mind and energy body. Also, as I have repeatedly stated, I am not doubting that the people you have met have had some really cool astral trips. The trips are so fun/interesting, that most such users continuing taking/addicted to those drugs for their entire lives.

 

But, maybe the issue is simply definition. I do not really consider astral realms a big deal, maybe that is the difference. But, astral realms are not even in the neighborhood of Dao or being one with God.

 

On proof of my position, this is an easy one. Drug based astral trips are so unstable, they unwind with any meaningful outside energy impact and all of the self delusion comes crashing down. So CT, feel free to find yourself someone that you consider totally legit that uses psychedelics, and I will remotely change his perceived experience.

 

Once again definitively my position... It is not possible to realize anything near clear light/Dao/God with using drugs.

 

So says Jeff...  

[C T]

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

 

 So CT, feel free to find yourself someone that you consider totally legit that uses psychedelics, and I will remotely change his perceived experience.

 

So says Jeff...  

No big deal to have developed such an ability. In my world, its no different than vast numbers of Aussies now having chopstick skills on par with any Asian. Practice is all... with consistence, patience, and most of all guard against any temptation to mock one's own developed skill by tempting other unknowns to test one's ability. The need to do this is a potentially dangerous one. 

 

I have made it clear before how we must exercise extreme caution to permit such interactions with internet personas, especially those with no credentials other than self-proclaimed mastery over base-level siddhis. I still maintain this cautionary advice, both to self and others. 

[Jeff]

58 minutes ago, C T said:

No big deal to have developed such an ability. In my world, its no different than vast numbers of Aussies now having chopstick skills on par with any Asian. Practice is all... with consistence, patience, and most of all guard against any temptation to mock one's own developed skill by tempting other unknowns to test one's ability. The need to do this is a potentially dangerous one. 

 

I have made it clear before how we must exercise extreme caution to permit such interactions with internet personas, especially those with no credentials other than self-proclaimed mastery over base-level siddhis. I still maintain this cautionary advice, both to self and others. 

 

My point had nothing to do with abilities (or not). We were talking about drug usage (or at least I was) and whether it leads to higher levels of realization or not. Whether a drug induced astral trip is stable or not. You seem to want to disagree, but will provide no support for your position. 

 

Please just once, discuss the actual topic, rather than make constant comments that could be negatively interpreted like “aussies having chopstick skills” or your repeated comments around “no credentials”.

 

Thanks.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Jeff

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

My point had nothing to do with abilities (or not). We were talking about drug usage (or at least I was) and whether it leads to higher levels of realization or not. Whether a drug induced astral trip is stable or not. You seem to want to disagree, but will provide no support for your position. 

 

Please just once, discuss the actual topic, rather than make constant passive aggressive comments like “aussies having chopstick skills” or your repeated comments around “no credentials”.

 

Jeff,

 

The last part of this post is borderline reportable - you posted your OP in General Discussion - a point I have made to you before - and thus you must expect discussion and contrary points of view.  It is a rule here on DBs that you may attack the other posters point of view or ideas but not them personally (i.e. ad hominem) - to call anything CT has said 'passive aggressive' is both incorrect and demeaning to him since he has only stated his opinion (and actually backed it up with coherent argument) whether you agree with him or not is irrelevant - there is no authority position here on DBs as it is a 'level playing field' and trust that it will remain so.

 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Jeff,

 

The last part of this post is borderline reportable - you posted your OP in General Discussion - a point I have made to you before - and thus you must expect discussion and contrary points of view.  It is a rule here on DBs that you may attack the other posters point of view or ideas but not them personally (i.e. ad hominem) - to call anything CT has said 'passive aggressive' is both incorrect and demeaning to him since he has only stated his opinion (and actually backed it up with coherent argument) whether you agree with him or not is irrelevant - there is no authority position here on DBs as it is a 'level playing field' and trust that it will remain so.

 

 

Ok, then please explain to me how statements like the above referenced post contains a coherent argument? Or maybe better what that argument is pertaining to?

 

It was not my goal to offend anyone, it was more like... come on, stay on topic... But, since you are offended by it, I will change the post.

 

[Wizz]

I agree with Jeff on the drug thing, they aren't as powerful to give a full astral experience. Astral is pretty much like having a conversation with your soul which is different then being the soul which is more powerful since it directly tackles the core of our being. Real progress for me is advancement on all levels which is what impeccability is and when this is done then one is capable of making a final decision, this is what true freedom is. Saying something is higher then the other just because you are good at one thing and too lazy to work on another level just tells me how much you are based on mind classifications which are fueled with self importance. What are the measures of real progress here? Who is the authority on the progress, is it the mind or something real because the first one we can easily all do?!

 

Just as drugs make you dependent so do gurus make you and in the end both fail you as they go away and you are left to your own resources. If this person you speak of has achieved real progress I congratulate that's really big!

 

But if you may allow me to throw a little challenge and dare this person to throw away all physical and cyber contacts with you Jeff for a whole month and then to come here on the chat so all the members can feel the "moon high" energy of this member and if its still present as high as you state then we could open a whole new topic on gossiping our favorite gurus kidding a bit but I do believe this type of experimentation could only benefit this person.

Otherwise you could drive someone to mexico, finding him a house and a job there while his only task is to keep it and stay there and we might call this a big achievement for this person. Really?

 

Lastly I apologize if I misunderstood something here and this person has achieved a higher level on his own without your help.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Baloony
spell check

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

 

Ok, then please explain to me how statements like the above referenced post contains a coherent argument? Or maybe better what that argument is pertaining to?

 

It was not my goal to offend anyone, it was more like... come on, stay on topic... But, since you are offended by it, I will change the post.

 

 

 

I didn't say I was offended!  I said its ad hominem and thus against the rules of DBs.  I don't do offended.

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Baloony said:

I agree with Jeff on the drug thing, they aren't as powerful to give a full astral experience. Astral is pretty much like having a conversation with your soul which is different then being the soul which is more powerful since it directly tackles the core of our being. Real progress for me is advancement on all levels which is what impeccability is and when this is done then one is capable of making a final decision, this is what true freedom is. Saying something is higher then the other just because you are good at one thing and too lazy to work on another level just tells me how much you are based on mind classifications which are fueled with self importance. What are the measures of real progress here? Who is the authority on the progress, is it the mind or something real because the first one we can easily all do?!

 

Just as drugs make you dependent so do gurus make you and in the end both fail you as they go away and you are left to your own resources. If this person you speak of has achieved real progress I congratulate that's really big!

 

But if you may allow me to throw a little challenge and dare this person to throw away all physical and cyber contacts with you Jeff for a whole month and then to come here on the chat so all the members can feel the "moon high" energy of this member and if its still present as high as you state then we could open a whole new topic on gossiping our favorite gurus kidding a bit but I do believe this type of experimentation could only benefit this person.

Otherwise you could drive someone to mexico, finding him a house and a job there while his only task is to keep it and stay there and we might call this a big achievement for this person. Really?

 

Lastly I apologize if I misunderstood something here and this person has achieved a higher level on his own without your help.

 

Now I am confused...

 

Is your point here, that yes, this person has probably realized what Jeff has said... But, that level of realization may be dependent on Jeff, so that if that person cuts off all contact they may not be able to support it on their own?

 

Is that really what you are saying or did I misunderstand?

[Jetsun]

Coming back on topic.. say some guy is way above "super guru" level then so what, why is that a good thing? What's the use? 

 

 

[Wizz]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Now I am confused...

 

Is your point here, that yes, this person has probably realized what Jeff has said... But, that level of realization may be dependent on Jeff, so that if that person cuts off all contact they may not be able to support it on their own?

 

Is that really what you are saying or did I misunderstand?

 

Yes I believe this realization is dependent on your energy Jeff and if you cut this supply of energy by cutting of contacts for over a month and still being able to do it as a permanent realization I'll personally consider this achievement be it this person or me or someone else. I might be wrong..

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Jetsun said:

Coming back on topic.. say some guy is way above "super guru" level then so what, why is that a good thing? What's the use? 

 

 

 

Because when residing at those levels and still living in the world, the light radiates purely/directly. Being at formless levels, means that there is no construct or attachment with it.

 

Something even the “gods” would find beautiful.  

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Baloony said:

 

Yes I believe this realization is dependent on your energy Jeff and if you cut this supply of energy by cutting of contacts for over a month and still being able to do it as a permanent realization I'll personally consider this achievement be it this person or me or someone else. I might be wrong..

 

So on one side I have people saying I am an internet Aussie chopstick using fraud, and on the other I now have someone saying I am the all powerful energy controlling dude... Only at the bums...

 

But, to your specific question, the person is completely stable in their own right. Additionally, the person naturally resides in “higher” (and more formless) realms than I do. I can visit, but do not live there. 

[Wizz]

I never said that please don't twist my words. The challenge was meant for the person you mentioned in the OP not you just to keep that in mind. Also since your speaking in the behalf of the person's achievements you might as well say who this member is. Anyway cool on the formless realms wish I knew whats all the fuss about.

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Baloony said:

I never said that please don't twist my words. The challenge was meant for the person you mentioned in the OP not you just to keep that in mind. Also since your speaking in the behalf of the person's achievements you might as well say who this member is. Anyway cool on the formless realms wish I knew whats all the fuss about.

 

Sorry, didn’t say what? Or what did I misunderstand?

[C T]

13 minutes ago, Baloony said:

I never said that please don't twist my words. The challenge was meant for the person you mentioned in the OP not you just to keep that in mind. Also since your speaking in the behalf of the person's achievements you might as well say who this member is. Anyway cool on the formless realms wish I knew whats all the fuss about.

Ditto for me, too. Thanks

 

Jeff.. you need to sharpen your comprehension skills, mate

[Wizz]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Sorry, didn’t say what? Or what did I misunderstand?

 

30 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I now have someone saying I am the all powerful energy controlling dude...

 

22 minutes ago, Baloony said:

I never said that please don't twist my words. The challenge was meant for the person you mentioned in the OP not you just to keep that in mind. Also since your speaking in the behalf of the person's achievements you might as well say who this member is. Anyway cool on the formless realms wish I knew whats all the fuss about.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Baloony
adding a quote for better understanding

[Jeff]

You said...

 

1 hour ago, Baloony said:

 

Yes I believe this realization is dependent on your energy Jeff and if you cut this supply of energy by cutting of contacts for over a month and still being able to do it as a permanent realization I'll personally consider this achievement be it this person or me or someone else. I might be wrong..

 

How would you paraphrase that statement (and maybe attempt to add a little humor to the thread)?

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Apech said:

 

OK Jeff I don't wish to be pedantic - even though the term super-guru does appear in the OP in brackets and not parenthesis - so I assumed it was some kind of defined concept in your system.

 

I think you have to accept you are making an enormous claim for a fellow DB - that he (or she!) has spent a year at some enormously 'high' level and still resides beyond the level of what any of our 'favourite gurus' might be at.  I can't answer for everyone else but I know that many DBs have no teacher while others , like myself, do have a teacher, but I don't have anything like a 'favourite guru' which sounds like something from the New Age Spiritual supermarket to me.   And it might surprise you to learn that I genuinely have no interest in how high he has climbed up the proverbial mountain - I am only interested to receive authentic teachings which avoid subjective self judgements.

 

Thank you for your offer of giving me a comparison - but I assume you mean directly and not through words and as usual I will reject your offer as I am only interested in understanding what you were communicating in the OP.  You presumably thought this whole issue was important enough to let us all know about it - so to respect your wish I am trying to grasp what exactly you are saying.

 

For instance:

 

"What people often call consciousness has a zero level, then many levels/layers of relative form and astral stuff, and then beyond that are the various formless realms."

 

Am I right in assuming that by 'zero level' you mean something like base-consciousness or underlying sentience or similar?  Also I am not sure what 'astral stuff' means and how that is different to the other levels and layers of relative form.  And sorry to be thick but how can there be various formless realms - if there are different realms then they must have defining characteristics surely - so I'm a bit puzzled by this.

 

Lastly when you say this member lived at a very high level for a year - do you mean internally? or in a cave somewhere or were they carrying on their daily life as well?  Just trying to get a clearer picture.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Yes .   English is such a bad language for understanding levels of consciousness and awareness   - perfect example;

 

"What people often call consciousness has a zero level, then many levels/layers of relative form and astral stuff, and then beyond that are the various formless realms."

 

Which is why I suppose many writers on the subject have to borrow terms and maps from other systems  eg;  Buddhist terms for levels of consciousness or trances .  Many Sanskrit terms have also been incorporated into English to try and explain some wider concepts a well.    Even in the realm of psychology we borrow terms from  the German .

 

The western system has long depended on symbolic representations ; Tarot cards ,  'emblems',  schemata ,  etc .

 

           

 

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, allinone said:

i think it is New age thing of shifting to 5D. What 5D is your imagination manifest reality. Now just look it up what Jhana realm have same quality and you get a correlation. So is that wrong thing to do?

Or i should find a teacher, what usually is meant that the person saying things out doesn't want to take the responsibilities what said on him/herself so its easier to tell find a teacher. It is like a internet meme.

Jhana realms from second one have no sexual unions, in higher realm mere smile can satisfy. If you look Buddha statues they smile. Monks aim to reach is at least Akanistha realm.

--------

its for to realize truths about reality, if want to know even better truths need make a resolutions, take vows.

So a commoner can do whatever it likes i assume, but they won't get to know the truths and other knowledge.

 

Other words it is bigger world with different classes of beings etc but if want to get most out of human life then there is some pointers to fulfill so can enter to certain places.

 

 

Great example here ^  .  Even in posts like these  at least a level of consciousness is more clearly defined  by a borrowed word  (yet still contains some ambiguity )

 

    

Akanishtha (Skt. Akaniṣṭha; Tib. འོག་མིན་, Omin; Wyl. 'og min) —The word "Akanishtha" means 'not below', or 'above all'. It refers to the pure abodes whose characteristic is, according to the Omniscient Longchenpa, that there is nothing above them, and there are no features from elsewhere that surpass them.^[1] So, the name 'Akanishtha' is used throughout the teachings to refer to different abodes, which all share the common characteristic of being the highest, in relation to specific criteria. The great Indian master Buddhaguhya distinguishes six different ways of using the name Akanishtha. Longchenpa speaks of three types of Akanishtha in relation to the three kayas.

1. The highest heaven of the form realm. According to Mahayana, buddhas first reach full enlightenment in Akanishtha, and then manifest enlightenment through a nirmanakaya body in the human realm.
2. Akanishtha (Tib. འོག་མིན་སྟུག་པོ་བཀོད་པའི་ཞིང་ཁམས་, Wyl. 'og min stug po bkod pa'i zhing khams) or Omin Chenpo (Tib. འོག་མིན་ཆེན་པོ་, Wyl. 'og min chen po), in Vajrayana, also refers to the pure sambhogakaya field from which emanate all pure nirmanakaya fields. In the three kaya mandala offering of the Longchen Nyingtik Ngöndro, Akanishtha is also referred to as 'the highest heaven of great bliss, the realm of Ghanavyūha' (Tib. སྟུག་པོ་བཀོད་པ་, Wyl. stug po bkod pa).
3. Akanishtha is also the name of Vairochana's buddha field.

- Wiki .

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

 

So .... it's not you

 

No ... some other member of the secret internal Daobums society