Effects and Signs of successful Jing Replenishment

[ChiForce]

Oh...about the immortality????  I can only comment on it in reference to Buddhism and the idea behind the death bardo.  Why?  To give birth to the Taoist immortality, you have to transform your pearl light into the golden elixir.  Obviously, if you don't see any light during your meditation, you aren't going to give birth to the golden elixir, period.  In the Tibetan Buddhism teaching of the bardo, the deceased also needs to recognize this light in their death consciousness transition.  It is said that if you can follow this light and to hold on to it in the bardo, you would not have to reborn again in the human realm.  Supposedly, if you can see this light during your meditation, your rebirth to the heavenly realm is guaranteed.  So, yes, immortality is possible in the Taoist internal alchemy system but your consciousness would only live and dwell in the heavenly realm or formless realm.  

 

That's how I understood about the Taoist immortality though reading up on the death bardo experience in the Tibetan Buddhism.  

           

Edited September 28, 2017 by ChiForce

[exorcist_1699]

Some keys : 

 

1) A settled , magnificent  Mind  is the guarantee for  the stop of jing leakage  ,it is especially true for nocturnal release ; and ,is  of course important for spiritual achievement ;  most of Buddhist  monks don't talk about it( likely also unable to stop release of it )   doesn't mean that it is a trivial issue ; in Wu-Liu writings, there are a lot argument about it, I will not repeat them here ;  ( See how a monk's face look like you get 90% about how deep his cultivation ..) Wu-Liu argument is clear and definite : capable of stopping the leakage of jing and maintaining it   means very ,very long life...

 

2)   Conversely , having accumulated enough jing and qi lets you grasp and settle the fluctuated minds ( details hidden in Taoist theory of Kan and Li ) much easier ; the emphasize of qi and Shen's intercourse  is always  overlooked by people ...; anyway ,  the key is to  let a mindless Mind  govern the whole process of your cultivation, not relying on  your silly ,narrow-minded  ego .

 

3) Reversing aging, not just stopping it, is a wonderful criterion proposed by Taoists to check about the effectiveness of  our practice. As they are so clear : Turning your whitened hair back  to black or rebirth of fallen teeth .., so it is more reliable  than other criterion , for example,   those silly questions raised by monks in Zen 's Koans  in quest of a final  answer , not to speak of other religions' otherworldly promises..., for Taoism believes that to the utmost of jing's  fullness and purity , Shen will also  form and come ( " 精極成神 "  ) to us .

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[Orion]

5 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Healthy cynicism is good to separate the phonies from the real deal, but there comes a point that it's so contrarian, why believe anything? Most highly-skilled teachers, immortal or not, don't care of we believe in them and their abilities and our potential. 

 

Staying on topic, a teacher I have said to us that "if we cut a man open, we will never see qi, but we know that it exists because we feel it". Applying that to jing and other things, can we see then that it's a little more than using only the current tools to measure the criteria for the potential to do what is hidden in myth and legend? 

 

I prefer to be open with healthy skepticism, but don't want to adopt cynicism to the point of outright dismissal. 

 

I'm not cynical. Jing is real and the benefits are clear, but that's different than the legends about immortals. It's not cynical to point out that people treating immortals as a factual thing are merely engaging in a belief, not anything evidentiary.

 

People get fanatical about every day practices that are meant to enhance our lives and our spiritual cultivation. It goes from a very grounded, practical thing to suddenly we're spinning out into the ether talking about superior beings who have cultivated some kind of transcendent physical reality.

 

There are certainly gifted, high level people on this planet. None of them live forever, not physically anyway. Immortal ghosts, now that I can buy into. Shed this decaying body and then continue your work, that makes a lot of sense. But this notion that there are 300 old men living in secret in China somewhere is just face palm worthy.

[Apech]

11 hours ago, Wells said:

The topic seems to be quite controversal.

The reality is that people who claim that "inverting the course", "replenishing jing", "reversal of aging", "physical immortality", "daytime ascending" and "celestial immortality" are impossible claim that the classic taoist texts are lies and that the classic taoist authors are liars or fools.

50 years ago, most people on earth believed that man would never walk on the moon and that people who claimed different were liars or fools. Even today, some people still claim that man never walked on the moon.

It's seemingly hard for many people to imagine the possibility of something that they have never encountered or experienced themselves.

 

....

 

 

Good thread by the way

 

I don't practice Nei Dan but have gone through in depth both Wang Mu 'Foundations of Internal Alchemy' and Damo Mitchell's 'White Moon on the Mountain Peak' just so I would have some basic understanding.

 

Wang Bi's Yi Jing commentaries also mention briefly the idea that qi condenses into jing at conception and then slowly dissipates through qi - shen sensory activity.

 

With regard to the original question I think actually the first thing that would be experienced as jing is replenished is not the dramatic effects of rejuvenation but more a kind of grounding in your subtle and physical bodies which leads to more vigour generally, mental strength and a kind of more open gentler feeling about things because of a reduction in neurotic activity.  This would be reliant on properly laying the foundations i.e. overcoming obstructions in meridians and restoring organ function to balance and equilibrium.  If you just try to 'retain' that is stop jing leakage then you risk a pressure cooker effect which eventually blows the lid off   After this the first physical result would be I think the clarity of the whites of the eyes - the blue white you see in children - hair growth (including eyebrows), improved endocrine function, joint lubrication and better digestion and excretion  .

 

 

[KuroShiro]

5 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

3) Reversing aging, not just stopping it, is a wonderful criterion proposed by Taoists to check about the effectiveness of  our practice. As they are so clear : Turning your whitened hair back  to black or rebirth of fallen teeth ..,

 

 

Do you know which Classic Taoist Text(s) state that?

[exorcist_1699]

5 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Do you know which Classic Taoist Text(s) state that?

 

A lot . It is a common practice of Taoist classics to tell what physical effects people can attain after talking about certain principles , usually as some kind of proof. For example,  the famous " Preachings of masters Zhong and Lu" (<<鍾吕傳道集>>) .

Edited September 28, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[KuroShiro]

2 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

A lot . It is a common practice of Taoist classics to tell what physical effects people can attain after talking about certain principles , usually as some kind of proof. For example,  the famous " Preachings of masters Zhong and Lu" (<<鍾吕傳道集>>) .

 

Thanks.

Has it been translated to English? If not can you think of another one that has been translated?

[thelerner]

Jing.. there's the belief that masturbating loses jing.  To me the real culprit is too much thinking, worrying, speculating.. planning, hoping and conniving.  That's where the real loss is.  Plugging it won't lead to immortality but probably goes a good way towards enlightenment or something similar.

[Rakiel]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

Jing.. there's the belief that masturbating loses jing.  To me the real culprit is too much thinking, worrying, speculating.. planning, hoping and conniving.  That's where the real loss is.  Plugging it won't lead to immortality but probably goes a good way towards enlightenment or something similar.

 

I agree. after a day of thinking, worrying, speculating.. planning, hoping and conniving, etc. I feel just as bad as after masturbating

[ChiForce]

Well, to answer the original question, my dream states and visions are definitely on the high quality side.  Right now, my jing or my essence is full.  Don't feel the urge to release for a while now.  Haven't had any dreams indicating I want to release.  

 

I guess when my essence is full, my dreams and visions would take a newer dimension.  My dreams would embed with extreme wisdom and finding myself interacting with beings or situations in which I would never be able to achieve in real life situations.  I would have more clarity and concentration in my dream state.  I could see and recognize faces more clearer.  

 

Even if my essence has been depleted, my dream and mind states do not suffer a crash either.  Is not like I would have nightmares and anxiety dreams.  I may have more dreams about annoying subjects.  These dream contents do not affect my mood in my waking state.   

 

However, there was a time when I experienced another Kundalini energy rising in the middle of the night...only few hours after my jing has been leaked.  Like I said earlier, leaking Jing can impede your enlightenment progress and yet not at the same time.....  I personally don't know at what point in which your jing leakage won't affect your cultivation....   

[Wells]

Your jing is not "full".

It was probably "full" when you were born and it is getting less every day since.

 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Wells

[Wells]

Edited September 29, 2017 by Wells

[Wells]

"Spiritual Immortality" guys who can't burn up, excuse me, "refine" their jing fast enough back into emptiness, are like...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Wells

[thelerner]

3 hours ago, Rakiel said:

 

I agree. after a day of thinking, worrying, speculating.. planning, hoping and conniving, etc. I feel just as bad as after masturbating

I can't be the only who feels better after 'losing' liquid jing. 

also

I take it we don't have living examples spiritual immortality and/or actual immortality.  How good are our role models?  Seems to they get pretty spooky once they achieve ie. not really going back to the monastery to teach classes. 

 

[ChiForce]

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

I can't be the only who feels better after 'losing' liquid jing. 

also

I take it we don't have living examples spiritual immortality and/or actual immortality.  How good are our role models?  Seems to they get pretty spooky once they achieve ie. not really going back to the monastery to teach classes. 

 

Frankly, I just let nature to take its course if it should leak jing.  If you fight it, you going to have some strange dreams...hehehehhee.... Well, they do teach you but only in your dreams and consciousness...the most direct transmission...isn't it????    Most people can't learn anything even sitting in a classroom with a teacher.  Judging with numerous beings and figures I have encountered in my dreams, when they appear, they are as real as a real form.  I once dream of myself sleeping in my own room and I saw this blonde hair, blue eyed figure showed up by my bedside.  Not only that, I held his hand and really felt how rough his skin was.....It was so real that when I woke up, I looked to my right of my bed to see if he was still there....real or not real...I don't believe it is that important for an immortal.  What is matter is how your mind perceives them.

 

Then, there are the faces I saw in my meditation...hehehehhee.. 

[Sudhamma]

I remembered a qigong system which I was told was popular in Taiwan, its called Fan Lau Huan Tong Gong, "The Reversal of Aging to be a Child (again)". It was taught and promoted by one Dr Sha. I could not get hold of any videos of this gongfa and perhaps there are practitioners of this system in this forum who can share their insights on this interesting subject.

 

[Taoist Texts]

21 hours ago, Orion said:

 

I'm not cynical. Jing is real and the benefits are clear, ..... But this notion that there are 300 old men living in secret in China somewhere is just face palm worthy.

 

It is. Even more so is the fact that there are  gullible gluttons willing to pay for those secrets.  Fraudulent teachers are not surprising, however.

 

2 observations:

 

Jing based neidan model is ignorance.

 

Any physical rejuvenation occurs not in the beginning or in the course of the alchemical process, but only after its full completion.

 

Those who advocate replenishing jing or ming with immediate benefits simply do not know what they are talking about.

 

 

[Wells]

Becoming young again and transforming the body into light happen through building up and accumulating vitality (jing).

Of couse these effects don't happen immedeately but towards the end of the process when a huge amount of vitality has been cultivated over an extended period of time.

It is logical that the process for cultivating vitality is the same in the beginning as at the end of the alchemic process.

It is also logical that the correct training for increasing vitality produces immedeate effects already in the beginning stages of the training (like the reversal of impotence in older men), otherwise it's not the correct method for cultivating vitality.

I have been told that the correct training method has never been written down in any books or taoist texts, therefore people who only rely on such sources of course have no idea of these critical practices and even deny their existence although taoist books and texts contain hints to them.

In other words: Willful ignorance and denial of that which is out of reach.

 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Wells

[Taoist Texts]

26 minutes ago, Wells said:

Becoming young again ...

I have been told ...

Those tellers must be young again.

Or just young. Yet.

[Wells]

Either vitality (jing) can be cultivated and accumulated or taoist immortals don't exist.

It's as simple as that.

I personally am convinced that taoist immortals exist.

[Wells]

The Taoist Classics: The Collected Translations of Thomas Cleary, part 2:

"Without this energy, even if there are sperm and ovum they cannot make a being. So evidently the true energy of basic harmony is the root of the physical, the place where the body is born. As people receive this energy while yet unborn, it can produce being out of nonbeing, causing the body to grow and develop. So if you cultivate this basic energy today, why couldn't you prolong life, see eternity, escape constriction, and become spiritually transformed?"

 

In other words: It's all about cultivating the basic prenatal energy (jing).

 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Wells

[Chang]

51 minutes ago, Wells said:

Either vitality (jing) can be cultivated and accumulated or taoist immortals don't exist.

It's as simple as that.

I personally am convinced that taoist immortals exist.

 

Internal cultivation will undoubtadly prolong vigour and increase longevity but i am far from convinced that immortality can be achieved.

 

To discuss this is rather like the Kong Jing (Empty Force) debate - it is pleasant to think that such a thing may exist but the evidence is lacking or non existent.

[Wells]

23 minutes ago, Chang said:

To discuss this is rather like the Kong Jing (Empty Force) debate - it is pleasant to think that such a thing may exist but the evidence is lacking or non existent.

 

....at least in the opinion of the willfully ignorant people (-> existing video evidence of John Chang, Jiang Feng, Shi Ming, etc.).

Edited September 29, 2017 by Wells

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I keep thinking this whole immortality thing is a shibbolet... if someone comes to you asking for the secret of immortality, this tells you something about them and what kind of motivations and issues they carry.

Almost a diagnostic tool if you will

 

This is a great thread btw, i'm really enjoying reading it and i'm particularly happy to see we're talking about the natural process of aging in terms of the treasures and the reversal of that in the same terms.

 

Personally i felt Damos books were keen in connecting a lot of symbolisms but i keep feeling like its not saying much because of a semiotic issue: if you dont have the key of understanding the symbols and "codes" (semiotics call matters of endemic knowledge and context codes) it's either going to sound like someone talking GREAT MAGICS or perhaps logorreah. Idk, i was dissappointed because of the hype i think, it wasn't moving me.

 

Regaining youth and reversing age seems like a matter of context.

What do youths do? They grow, learn, discover, develop, investigate, exercise their flexibility and vitality in many different ways, hungry, horny, stubborn and yet easygoing, playful and bright eyed.

what do the aging do? They've seen it all, they know enough, they get stiff and have issues of circulation, spent their lives in toil and hardship and desperately want to rest, perhaps they're fed up and dissappointed or contented. Eyes cloudy, play is tedious, body is not what it once was, sickness, pain etc.

 

So here's a very joking lesson in qigong of the ultimate kind: be rich, quit worrying, go do something fun, eat well, be healthy and enjoy whats there, sharpen your ears and dont believe it when someone tells you you need to nearly kill yourself to survive and be fit and healthy.

 

Btw my hair and beard is turning grey a little more for each year thats passing. I feel younger now though, i notice differences in myself every day and notice changes. I never did before. I like it better now.

 

PS

I keep thinking about that story of the two guys walking a tightrope across a chasm. A nudge here, a little counderbalance there and a few adjustments when needed and presto, the bottomless pit is no longer a danger.

Everything MUST change. Everything has a way, if it no longer changes it has lost all of its life and retains only death...

or am i just missing the point?

 

Happy friday, have a relaxing cool beverage and enjoy something everyday-special.

peace out, 5k

[Mudfoot]

55 minutes ago, Chang said:

To discuss this is rather like the Kong Jing (Empty Force) debate - it is pleasant to think that such a thing may exist but the evidence is lacking or non existent.

We can have a Kong Jing Gong discussion if you like 

But that which is called KJG in my tradition is not about combat.