Pleasure seems to be an obstruction just like discomfort or pain

[s1va]

I had some obstructions with the energy flow and I felt it as discomfort for a period --sometimes intense discomfort.  Obstructions also result in physical pain sometimes.  This period of discomfort increased my awareness.  I started noticing, what is generally felt as pleasure is also nothing but an obstruction getting hit by energy.  I am not talking about the state of pure happiness here.  This is the pleasurable sensation that is triggered with respect to some outer events that the mind translates as conducive or positive.  When someone is praised, or something else that the mind labels as positive.

 

Going by this logic, when there are less obstructions the energy encounters, there should be lesser feelings of pleasure and discomfort.  In essence, both the nice and not so nice, seem to be obstructions that need to be cleared.  Once they clear to a large extend, that should open the way for inquiry with a calmer mind.  Anyway, I would like to get the opinion of others and see what they think on seeing pleasure as an obstruction that needs to be cleared. 

[Kar3n]

Anything can become an obstruction if we attach ourselves to it or grasp at it long enough.

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

9 hours ago, s1va said:

I started noticing, what is generally felt as pleasure is also nothing but an obstruction getting hit by energy.

 

My wife is a massage therapist. Deep tissue hurts so good! There is truly a fine line between pleasure and pain. 😏

 

[silent thunder]

My experiences with intense pleasure during meditation are more distracting than pain.

 

Deep pain is something I can tune out in many instances from familiarity with lasting states of pain.

My unfamiliarity with intense, abiding states of pleasure cause this to be more distracting.

But they both pass, so the point is moot in the end for me.

 

Interestingly, both states seem to depend on the evaluation of the mind taking a position that "this is a level of sensation I deem unacceptable."

[Spotless]

Looking at pleasure and pain as "other" - labelable sensations - and the use of "clearing" has a nice antiseptic ring to it but treating our bodies and energy systems as such is a very western approach.

 

Clearing assumes one knows what needs to be cleared. That is actually an enormous assumption.

 

we are typically addicted to pleasures and pains and various frequencies of resonance that are often the complete opposite for another. The pleasures and pains are not the obstruction - it is the addiction or simply the habit or habituation or DNA proclivity that continues to amplify itself again and again increasingly. It becomes our story - it is our various identities.

 

The notion of clearing is a never ending story - the wonderful and never ending search for healing.

 

We can approach all of this from the business end of "doing" and become quite adept at all of it - but in the end this was never a format for success it was meant to bring.

 

We will continue always to experience pleasures and pains as long as we have a body - even when we have attained the end of suffering. Prior to this attainment pleasures are associated with a longing and pains associated with an aversion or resistance.

Pasts and Futures. The cessation of suffering is the cessation of pasts and futures as other than Present.

 

Intentionally embracing pleasures and pains - resistance and longings and moving from indulgence while embracing patience and breath - mountains are moved.

 

Know your body is pure gold light and it will be - your thoughts and intention are far more real than anything "other" you are vested in. And every "other" is imbued with your light or darkness. 

 

Bless your food and you will eat blessed food.

 

Thank your body and be in gratitude and your thoughts will bear fruit that will astound you.

 

Set aside the mind and gratitude will become you.

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

Pleasure and pain are related. Too much pleasure can be interpreted as pain, and some pain can be considered pleasurable. 

 

They can be a result of obstructions. Energetically, The more clear our channels are, the less we feel in terms of sensations. Blockages will manifest as sensations -- which can be embodied pains etc, imho. 

 

As these sensations are triggered associated mind stuff always pop up. It is good to know a way clear these up. 

 

@s1va, how do you clear these up? Do you think you can share?

 

[C T]

Confusion tends to subside when the need to label sensations is diminished. 

 

Some meditation practices encourage noting sensations without giving in to the habitual tendency of assigning labels to these sensations. For example, the metaphorical box we have that contains all the associate terms for pain/pleasure becomes the focus for increasing awareness, rather than allowing the possibility for distractions caused by the habitual need to make sense of the contents within. 

 

Imo, as always. 

[Spotless]

We tend to look at clearing a channel or meridian as clearing a stone from a stream. On some level this analogy works and certainly it can be helpful - it also has it's lacking:

 

A stone does not re-appear time after time. The stone does not re-appear in another form here and there in one stream one day and in another the next. In the metaphorical body streams it does.

 

a clear meridian is not clear - it is full of vitality and light - but more so - it is most often charged with the general frequencies of mind: if the mind is focused on worry and in anguish and apprehension it effects the whole of the body - the wholesomeness of the body. And as spirit we retreat from such a body - consistently we retreat and consistently we reinforce the retreat mechanisms.

 

Often a pleasure addiction is an attempt to regain embodiment- a grasping - however subtle and tame it may be. Food addictions are a good example of simple pleasure addictions that can for a short time treat us to a bit of pleasurable embodiment and often they help us pass out soon thereafter - this is often referred to as self medication - it is not medication for Self - it is a junkies way to circumvent ones patterned addictive behaviors (and resistance to them) with another.

 

Obviously what is referred to as a "clear" channel is generally an unobstructed free flowing channel. It is the re-assemblage of the obstructions that is the issue. In the original post the discussion is with regard to how similar "pleasures" can be to "pains".

We are addicted to our pains - our victimhood - we are addicted to our anger filled sanctimonious righteousness - we are addicted to our "correct" judgements - all of these create pain and bestow pain and subjugation to our surroundings. The body is radically influenced by these as they resonate and chemically energetically distort and upend what can be otherwise a beautiful interlacing and wonderous potential. We are likewise addicted to our pleasures - and in this sense there is no difference.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Spotless

[dwai]

50 minutes ago, C T said:

Confusion tends to subside when the need to label sensations is diminished. 

 

Some meditation practices encourage noting sensations without giving in to the habitual tendency of assigning labels to these sensations. For example, the metaphorical box we have that contains all the associate terms for pain/pleasure becomes the focus for increasing awareness, rather than allowing the possibility for distractions caused by the habitual need to make sense of the contents within. 

 

Imo, as always. 

It's key to know what the source of the issue is.  If you know that, you can resolve the issue more rapidly. Some problems manifest as pains etc. Some others as behavioral issues. Some really deeper ones manifest as hurdles in one's life itself...related to work, how we interact with other people etc. 

 

Imho, how we deal with each one (many are interrrelated at various dimensions) depends on the intensity and depth of the "affliction". 

[s1va]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Pleasure and pain are related. Too much pleasure can be interpreted as pain, and some pain can be considered pleasurable. 

 

They can be a result of obstructions. Energetically, The more clear our channels are, the less we feel in terms of sensations. Blockages will manifest as sensations -- which can be embodied pains etc, imho. 

 

As these sensations are triggered associated mind stuff always pop up. It is good to know a way clear these up. 

 

@s1va, how do you clear these up? Do you think you can share?

 

 

What I meant by clearing is, when I am aware of them, just truly aware without labeling the sensations,  being with the sensation or being the sensation without any inhibitions.  Then, I see the sensation come fully into the surface and then start to slowly subside.  It just becomes a flow after that.   Sometimes, I have noticed energetic blocks around certain places or channels clearing when this happens.  I observe this also.   I do not practice any special meditation to clear or any method to note sensation without labeling.  

 

Edit:  Initially there is noticing of the sensations and the mind calls it something, pleasure or discomfort etc.  Further awareness of the sensation dropping other things, help as stated above.

Edited September 27, 2017 by s1va

[dwai]

Just now, s1va said:

 

What I meant by clearing is, when I am aware of them, just truly aware without labeling the sensations,  being with the sensation or being the sensation without any inhibitions.  Then, I see the sensation come fully into the surface and then start to slowly subside.  It just becomes a flow after that.   Sometimes, I have noticed energetic blocks around certain places or channels clearing when this happens.  I observe this also.   I do not practice any special meditation to clear or any method to note sensation without labeling.  

Thanks for sharing. Is there something you have to do, in order to let these sensations rise without getting caught up in the emotions or feelings attached with them? 

[Kar3n]

9 minutes ago, dwai said:

Thanks for sharing. Is there something you have to do, in order to let these sensations rise without getting caught up in the emotions or feelings attached with them? 

I like this simple practice when I get caught up.

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40548-neutral-witness-preliminary-foundation-practice/

 

[Spotless]

9 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

What I meant by clearing is, when I am aware of them, just truly aware without labeling the sensations,  being with the sensation or being the sensation without any inhibitions.  Then, I see the sensation come fully into the surface and then start to slowly subside.  It just becomes a flow after that.   Sometimes, I have noticed energetic blocks around certain places or channels clearing when this happens.  I observe this also.   I do not practice any special meditation to clear or any method to note sensation without labeling.  

Witnessing this is much like seeing your fingers in a Chinese finger prison - upon noticing is a bit of relaxation and the moment one has receded from the pulling and grasping the prison ceases to be.

[s1va]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

Thanks for sharing. Is there something you have to do, in order to let these sensations rise without getting caught up in the emotions or feelings attached with them? 

 

A lot of things help me to watch the sensations without getting caught up with the emotions.  Sometimes, just watching the breath is very helpful.  Meditating in groups has been extremely helpful for me.  It has given me that extra space that I needed so many times, not to get caught up with the emotions or mind stories around the sensation.

[s1va]

25 minutes ago, dwai said:

It's key to know what the source of the issue is.  If you know that, you can resolve the issue more rapidly. Some problems manifest as pains etc. Some others as behavioral issues. Some really deeper ones manifest as hurdles in one's life itself...related to work, how we interact with other people etc. 

 

Imho, how we deal with each one (many are interrrelated at various dimensions) depends on the intensity and depth of the "affliction". 

 

I think you have brought up something very important.  Sometimes, knowing the source is the key to solving the issue.  Perhaps, not always.  Where is the source?  This leads to an inquiry sometimes which I feel is just as important as the witnessing process.    This inquiry leads me sometimes all the way to question the source of who I am, rather than question the sensation, at some point, the question turns to,  'who is feeling the discomfort or the sensation'.  I see this as going to the root that causes or wherefrom the issue starts.

[C T]

In our tradition, we were taught to consider why its not very helpful to strengthen the habit of wanting to analyse perceived blockages, obstacles, etc, those things that we deem to be preventing us from progress. Main reasons being, that by fuelling that habit, it may happen that small obstacles, instead of exhausting their own volitional thrust and burn themselves off eventually, may actually gather more fuel and become more energetic with sustained focus, and secondly, because cause and effect is such a complex web, it is said that heads can sometimes explode from frustration and exasperation at failing to locate the root. And really, finding said roots may seem logical and vital, but again, in my tradition, we are reminded to instead invest the energy in cultivating a deeper understanding of what the mind really is, and how, when its empty, cognizant nature is finally understood, all the roots will naturally sever with no traces left behind. 

[C T]

Patience is a very useful tool for mastery over the fleeting nature of sensate realities. 

[Spotless]

31 minutes ago, C T said:

In our tradition, we were taught to consider why its not very helpful to strengthen the habit of wanting to analyse perceived blockages, obstacles, etc, those things that we deem to be preventing us from progress. Main reasons being, that by fuelling that habit, it may happen that small obstacles, instead of exhausting their own volitional thrust and burn themselves off eventually, may actually gather more fuel and become more energetic with sustained focus, and secondly, because cause and effect is such a complex web, it is said that heads can sometimes explode from frustration and exasperation at failing to locate the root. And really, finding said roots may seem logical and vital, but again, in my tradition, we are reminded to instead invest the energy in cultivating a deeper understanding of what the mind really is, and how, when its empty, cognizant nature is finally understood, all the roots will naturally sever with no traces left behind. 

This is an enormously valuable insight/teaching/tradition.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Spotless

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, C T said:

In our tradition, we were taught to consider why its not very helpful to strengthen the habit of wanting to analyse perceived blockages, obstacles, etc, those things that we deem to be preventing us from progress. Main reasons being, that by fuelling that habit, it may happen that small obstacles, instead of exhausting their own volitional thrust and burn themselves off eventually, may actually gather more fuel and become more energetic with sustained focus, and secondly, because cause and effect is such a complex web, it is said that heads can sometimes explode from frustration and exasperation at failing to locate the root. And really, finding said roots may seem logical and vital, but again, in my tradition, we are reminded to instead invest the energy in cultivating a deeper understanding of what the mind really is, and how, when its empty, cognizant nature is finally understood, all the roots will naturally sever with no traces left behind. 

This.

 

Such a gem!  This is reflected as gold truth in my experience.

Thanks for sharing!

[dwai]

2 hours ago, C T said:

In our tradition, we were taught to consider why its not very helpful to strengthen the habit of wanting to analyse perceived blockages, obstacles, etc, those things that we deem to be preventing us from progress. Main reasons being, that by fuelling that habit, it may happen that small obstacles, instead of exhausting their own volitional thrust and burn themselves off eventually, may actually gather more fuel and become more energetic with sustained focus, and secondly, because cause and effect is such a complex web, it is said that heads can sometimes explode from frustration and exasperation at failing to locate the root. And really, finding said roots may seem logical and vital, but again, in my tradition, we are reminded to instead invest the energy in cultivating a deeper understanding of what the mind really is, and how, when its empty, cognizant nature is finally understood, all the roots will naturally sever with no traces left behind. 

Quite often, before the cognizance of the nature of the mind is possible, it is needed to clear extraneous noise that clouds the mind. Without experiencing stillness, one cannot know the nature of the mind  

 

Certain traumas need to be cleared first, before the stillness can become apparent. 

[C T]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

Quite often, before the cognizance of the nature of the mind is possible, it is needed to clear extraneous noise that clouds the mind. Without experiencing stillness, one cannot know the nature of the mind  

 

Certain traumas need to be cleared first, before the stillness can become apparent. 

This might be one approach which brings a desired result, but essentially we were taught that the mind is not made up of two aspects, ie an empty aspect, and a cognizant aspect. It is both at once. And these two aspects are always in harmonious union. Hence our practice (or training) is to gradually become stable in the periodic glimpses of this harmonious union rather than attend to the contents that emanate from it, like for example, noise, labels, and basically all kinds of sensate perceptions arising out of this self-perfected nature (meaning, primordially pure -- whatever we add to it cannot make it more pure, and whatever we remove cannot make it less perfect).

 

Im not saying to disregard relative issues pertaining to one's well-beingness, but to actually develop a new mode or habit of seeing how noise and clouds, traumas and contractions are not separate from us, but because their innate nature is one of constant flux (meditation helps to realize this), we try to connect and conduct the self with/from that aspect of Mind that is ever stable and unchanging. There are many names for this aspect of Mind... but names are good only for the expressed purpose of understanding the expedient nature of relative existence. On the ultimate side of this same existence, the space is already constantly in brightness, so when we have matured the practice enough to peep in and see this natural brightness (which im sure many here have already got glimpses of it before), as not something separate, or existing apart from us, then we can relax and cease attempting to find torches to shine the way in our quest for stillness. Then we will gradually come to understand the immanent truth that any movement at all towards stillness arise from nowhere but from the very stillness we are attempting to access. As a result, what may happen is that eventually we will realize that the quest, the path, the journey, the pauses, the heartaches, the elations, the highs and the lows, these are all mind-made (or rather, ego-made) stories that keeps us suspended in a sense of separation and perpetually distracts us from recognising our true nature.

 

When we eventually see through the illusion of disjointedness of these various illusory segments that we think constitutes the evolution of spirit, what takes place then? 

[dwai]

1 minute ago, C T said:

This might be one approach which brings a desired result, but essentially we were taught that the mind is not made up of two aspects, ie an empty aspect, and a cognizant aspect. It is both at once. And these two aspects are always in harmonious union. Hence our practice (or training) is to gradually become stable in the periodic glimpses of this harmonious union rather than attend to the contents that emanate from it, like for example, noise, labels, and basically all kinds of sensate perceptions arising out of this self-perfected nature (meaning, primordially pure -- whatever we add to it cannot make it more pure, and whatever we remove cannot make it less perfect).

 

Im not saying to disregard relative issues pertaining to one's well-beingness, but to actually develop a new mode or habit of seeing how noise and clouds, traumas and contractions are not separate from us, but because their innate nature is one of constant flux (meditation helps to realize this), we try to connect and conduct the self with/from that aspect of Mind that is ever stable and unchanging. There are many names for this aspect of Mind... but names are good only for the expressed purpose of understanding the expedient nature of relative existence. On the ultimate side of this same existence, the space is already constantly in brightness, so when we have matured the practice enough to peep in and see this natural brightness (which im sure many here have already got glimpses of it before), as not something separate, or existing apart from us, then we can relax and cease attempting to find torches to shine the way in our quest for stillness. Then we will gradually come to understand the immanent truth that any movement at all towards stillness arise from nowhere but from the very stillness we are attempting to access. As a result, what may happen is that eventually we will realize that the quest, the path, the journey, the pauses, the heartaches, the elations, the highs and the lows, these are all mind-made (or rather, ego-made) stories that keeps us suspended in a sense of separation and perpetually distracts us from recognising our true nature.

 

When we eventually see through the illusion of disjointedness of these various illusory segments that we think constitutes the evolution of spirit, what takes place then? 

Agreed. Yet, to be able to see requires different things for different people. Not everyone is born equal in the relative form (karma determines) unfortunately.  

 

What (spiritual clearing) takes someone just a touch of a hand or a sound or a sight can take another years to ignite. That's why there are different strokes for different folks

 

[allinone]

On ‎26‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 10:55 PM, Kar3n said:

Anything can become an obstruction if we attach ourselves to it or grasp at it long enough.

 

 

 

Obstruction is there, exhausting all fun then activity doesn't seem interesting anymore and there is no alternative activity, mind comes dull, obscured, but yet we can't give up yet more suffering, finally we can and then mind will come alive by seeing what can be done differently, better or some other interesting thing so we can start with advantage by seeing ahead what matters more and can avoid wasting time on useless activities.

 

Pick any activity what you love to do, and do only that and you become disinterested on it and there is no other activity left and you slowly die. Then come alive and see things interesting from different angles, but again you will repeat the process you exhaust these and die.

Anyways there is repeated circle of dark period and after that things are fine and stupid evangelical period before down again.

I just end one bad part of circle, there is going to come more much more dark periods, so that's why i afraid making mistakes and fear all sorts of things etc, because the suffering periods are bad.

 

This repeated circle reminds the birth and death circle. Buddism teaches that it is possible to end. So i have faith that i eventually can get away from suffering.

[allinone]

pleasure itself not, but the fabric of thoughts other people try to connect is made of water what start gather into organs, the substance is demanded out from the sexual organ. And the participants even not aware of that their thoughts stimulate that kind of water. There is also other states what are related to it but not directly but are same kind of fight against loss of substance and going towards evil path.