Nei Gung - What is it? to Starjumper, Buddy, et al.

[tumoessence]

I think nei gong is a very inclusive term and I not sure what all the broo ha ha is about when there is room for nei gong to include many meanings.

In the taiji school that I play in and I am deep in the mud, nei gong is similar to what Buddy is posting, moving from the inner body as he defines it and like him of the inner body. Our nei gong is integrated into the form practice. Then I think that depending on the practice and dedication the practice itself unfolds deeper possibilities to my body mind. I think there are various steps leading up to that of Nei dan gong.

My second Yang style teacher an unknown from hong kong said there was no such term as qi gong before the forties and that it was invented as a watered down version of family style nei gong martial or taoist practice. But I don't agree that Yang style itself is watered down taiji quan.

[sheng zhen]

Thanks for all the good explenations of nei gong! For us newbie taoists this has been a great thread.

 

But Im still a little unshure what nei gong practically looks like.

 

The cultivation of the belly embryo is classical nei gong, right?

 

Is breathing through your belly nei gong? Or tracing the meridians with your mind? Or working visually with the organ energies, or the chakras, and things like that? Or cleancing visualisations like the kunlun lotus-visualisation? Is all this kind of inner work nei gong?

 

 

Or is there somthing, a definition or something else we can use to use to recognize the difference between western energywork and visualisations from taoist nei gong?

[thaddeus]

But I don't agree that Yang style itself is watered down taiji quan.

why do you believe this? have you been able to study chen style? even the yang family admits yang came from chen.

Yang style is missing the fajin, varying tempo, jumps, reverse breath and the twisting of the limbs.

T

[tumoessence]

why do you believe this? have you been able to study chen style? even the yang family admits yang came from chen.

Yang style is missing the fajin, varying tempo, jumps, reverse breath and the twisting of the limbs.

T

Thaddeus,

 

Yang and Wu styles do have fajin held latently, and they do have twisting of the limbs. They have nei gong. These are mostly in the medium and small frame forms.

I know that the Yang style origins have some alternative versions of the story which elicit very emotional reactions in some places, and I m not qualified to debate, but I do recognize the existence of another story. Very controversial stuff as you can imagine. See the discussions at empty flower forum on Wu tunans research on tai chi history which is extensive. Wu tunan lived to be 105 and his wife to 111. Both yang style practitioners. Also at his websites you can see Earle Montigues' demonstrations of the Yang Luchan forms with jumps and expressed fajin.

I have not studied Chen style and probably won't at this stage of my life, but it looks like great training.

[VCraigP]

Starjump seem fun, even if he confuses neigung with internal alchemy which ARE NOT the same.

 

Pietro

Thanks for your input. Your statement about confusing terms is EXACTLY why I started this thread.

It's about language. I wanted to know what Starjumpers definition of Nei gong was. It is apparent that he has a very specific idea. I do not think he is confused. Again it seems clear to me to be a matter of language. If he says Neigong IS Internal Alchemy then I believe that is his understanding. This understanding seems to be backed up by a lot of experience.

 

If you say Neigung is Not Internal Alchemy this is likely true for you as well. different schools have different ways of talking about these things. The lines of demarcation are not very clear. It is not necessary to denigrate someone because their definitions do not fit yours. I am seeking to make the communication more clear for my own understanding as well as for those who know less than I do.

 

Regarding how internal alchemy and neigung are not the same, they are not in the system I am studying, and if there is even one system in which the two are different, evidently the two terms cannot be interchanged.

 

...huh??? If there is one system is which the two are different this only shows that this is the language used in that one system. It gives no general evidence about how the terms may be used in any other school. It only demonstrates that they are not interchangeable in your school. Anyway I am satisfied with Starjumpers answer to me and have received a fairly clear idea of what he means by Neigung. I would suggest that perhaps it is more of a continuum. His Neigong system is seamlessly connected to and part of waht you would deem a seperate practice called "Internal Alchemy". But I shouldn't put words in his mouth.

As for giving example of Nei Gung from Buddy system, maybe the best is to recall the 16 nei gung system from Bruce:

1. Breathing methods, in increasing complexity.

2. Feeling, moving, transforming and transmuting internal energies along the Energy channels of the body.

3. Precise body alignments.

4. Dissolving physical, emotional and spiritual blockages.

5. Moving energy through the body's meridian channels and energy gates.

6. Bending and stretching the body, inside out and outside in.

7. Opening and closing all parts of the body's tissues, joints and subtle energy anatomy.

8. Manipulating the energy of the external Aura.

9. Making circles and spirals of energy inside the body, controlling the body's spiraling energy currents, and moving chi in the body at will.

10. Absorbing and projecting energy to and from the body.

11. Controlling energies of the spine.

12. Controlling the body's left and right energy channels.

13. Controlling the body's central energy channel.

14. Learn capabilities and uses of the body's Lower tantien.

15. Learn capabilities and uses of the body's upper and Middle tantien.

16. Connecting every part of the physical body into one unified energy.

 

But of course those are hard for someone who does not recognises the existance of energy.

 

Thank you for posting the above to help define what you understand as Nei gong. Again, I point out it is not necessary to denigrate Buddy who freely expressed his perspective. It would be more constructive for the purpose of this thread at least to just take peoples comments as they are. Your contention with Buddy has been very evident to anyone paying attention. I am more interested in hearing where people are coming from, i.e. what is their understanding, than in trying to show who is right and who is wrong.

 

So you have shown a very detailed description of the practice and goals of K.F.'s method of Nei gong.

 

Thank you for that it is instructive.

 

Perhaps you to demonstrate the difference between Nei gong as you understand it and "internal alchemy" you could post a similar description of what it is.

 

Thanks

 

Craig

[thaddeus]

Very controversial stuff as you can imagine.

yes im aware of that controversy

i recommend taking a workshop from an acknowledged chen stylist, someone neutral like say Zhu Tian Cai. Then compare that with what you see Earl or anyone else doing..

It was a real eye opener for me..you don't have to leave your yang practice. some can see Yang style not as watered down but as a refinement or abstraction of Chen. If practiced in that light, it's a decent practice, but I think you need to know the root first. just my opinion.

T

[VCraigP]

 

Craig, you asked about what our practice is like. It is as follows: We do a few minutes of warm ups and then do an hour to two of usually slow moving exercises that can be quite strenuous. Some of the exercises are so slow that it is basically like standing meditation, at least it derives the same benefits. We also do quite a few different kinds of shaking exercises and at higher levels some chi packing. Most chi packing is very dangerous but our version is relatively safe. Our practice focus ses on cultivating high energy and high levels of hand power.

 

After the standing we do various sitting exercises which includes some kicking, self flagellation, and self massage. Then we do meditations which consist of many different postures, the posture changes almost every week for years. After meditation we do a few cooling down/calming exercises.

 

The exercises change steadily over the years so that thousands of techniques are learned. The practice is a Taoist sorcerer's practice, the full 100% deal.

 

 

Thank you Starjumper

Your answer is sufficient and seems thorough considering that you must hold back from revealing too much.

 

With Gratitude.

 

Craig

[doc benway]

Yang style is missing the fajin, varying tempo, jumps, reverse breath and the twisting of the limbs.

T

With all due respect, that is an inaccurate statement. Everything you describe above is an inherent part of Yang, Wu, and Sun training. It's simply not explicit in the forms. Also, a much higher percentage of Yang teachers don't know anything about the martial side of training compared to Chen teachers, in my experience, which helps propagate that mistaken impression. Interestingly, I've read at least one article, written by a Chen stylist, that claims that the expression of fajin in the Chen forms and formalized chan su jin drills are both a relatively new modification that occured well after the Yang and Wu styles developed. Not that fajin and chan su jin training weren't present before, just not as formalized or explicit in drills and forms. I don't know it to be an accurate statement but I will try to dig up the reference.

 

Furthermore, when we practice fajin, it is very repetetive (500-1000 reps), or on a heavy bag (at least 100 lbs), or using straps and ropes, or with a partner. I wonder how important it is to show some fajin in the form 2 or 3 times without a partner or anything to give resistence - to me that doesn't mean all that much in terms of actually developing fajin power. It is something that makes the form look more impressive, but does it really do much for the practitioner? Similar with tempo changes, chan su jin training, and so on - all trained with repetetive drills, mostly with an opponent but not explicit in the form. I have been exposed to Chen training and compete and periodically train with Chen folks, but my primary practice is currently Yang and Chen Pan Ling (who incorporated elements of Yang, Wu, and Chen). Perhaps there is something substantial in the Chen style that the others simply don't have, but nothing I've seen yet. The major difference I see is one of emphasis, forms, and drills. At some point I would definitely like to spend more time training in Chen methods - all are certainly valuable, but my current teacher is too good to go looking for anyone else just now. In my experience, the teacher and student are far more important than the style...

 

PS Since this is a neigong thread, i'll add a few comments. My teacher incorporates a neigong system into our training for both external and internal arts students. It includes a variety of sitting, standing, and some moving postures and "exercises". I doubt that it's as extensive as SJ's system but it yields some impressive results for those who devote enough time to the practice. My best shot at describing the hallmark characteristic of neigong would be that it develops the use of the yi to work with qi in a wide variety of ways that are valuable to the martial artist in one way or another. In that way, neigong certainly is a critical piece of martial taijiquan training. Much of the neigong practice, however, is closely related to awareness, consciousness, and similar concepts that are tough to verbalize and more involved with "spiritual" cultivation, for lack of a better word. I'm sure there is a lot more that I haven't learned yet as I haven't learned the entire neigong system yet. My teacher thinks very highly of the neigong component and guards it well. I suspect there are aspects that he'll only pass on to his successor.

Edited January 11, 2008 by xuesheng

[thaddeus]

Furthermore, when we practice fajin, it is very repetetive (500-1000 reps), or on a heavy bag (at least 100 lbs), or using straps and ropes, or with a partner. I wonder how important it is to show some fajin in the form 2 or 3 times without a partner or anything to give resistence - to me that doesn't mean all that much in terms of actually developing fajin power. It is something that makes the form look more impressive, but does it really do much for the practitioner? Similar with tempo changes, chan su jin training, and so on - all trained with repetetive drills, mostly with an opponent but not explicit in the form. I have been exposed to Chen training and compete and periodically train with Chen folks, but my primary practice is currently Yang and Chen Pan Ling (who incorporated elements of Yang, Wu, and Chen). Perhaps there is something substantial in the Chen style that the others simply don't have, but nothing I've seen yet. The major difference I see is one of emphasis, forms, and drills. At some point I would definitely like to spend more time training in Chen methods - all are certainly valuable, but my current teacher is too good to go looking for anyone else just now. In my experience, the teacher and student are far more important than the style...

I see where you're coming from. I did practice Yang intensely, different lineages, for a while. I don't think you've been exposed to good chen style based on your observations of chen style. All I'm saying is take a workshop with an established master of chen to see for yourself..i suggested zhu tian cai because he is the most accessible of the top chen stylists.

From what I know about Chen Pan Ling, he incorporated alot of chinese boxing in his teaching, so he doesn't count for this..

So, based on your comments, of what value is the form in your training? is it just a choreography or ritual to follow in addition to the solo training? why bother with it?

T

[Guest sykkelpump]

Ive missed the website for starjumper can someone please post it?

http://www.skymountain.net/forum/

[Stigweard]

I see where you're coming from. I did practice Yang intensely, different lineages, for a while. I don't think you've been exposed to good chen style based on your observations of chen style. All I'm saying is take a workshop with an established master of chen to see for yourself..i suggested zhu tian cai because he is the most accessible of the top chen stylists.

From what I know about Chen Pan Ling, he incorporated alot of chinese boxing in his teaching, so he doesn't count for this..

So, based on your comments, of what value is the form in your training? is it just a choreography or ritual to follow in addition to the solo training? why bother with it?

T

Hi Thaddeus,

 

It's great that you feel so strongly about the virtues of your style, everyone is due their own perspective.

 

And I appreciate that many schools of taiji have been 'watered down' so to speak.

 

What we have to remember is that there is virtue to be found in every person's path, and if we close our minds to the treasures around us we may miss out on the ultimate prize ... Tao.

 

Just a thought...

[宁]

its good discussions like this take place, because sometimes some guys just get to carried away with the spectacular insights they have, and start making judgement like masters

 

 

listen, i think there is little room for moderate claimings here... if you want to impress people, your stuff must be THE stuff, must be IT, or bust

 

 

there is a great amount of immature testosteron flying around here, sometimes is just amusing and you can feel compassionate and understanding about it; but for some of the guys that take these thing at their proper value, with added mature thinking... sometimes it just is too much

 

a rambling forum is a rambling forum, and we cannot make rules and decide universal values for all of the free thinkers here. but i guess a little slap on the neck from time to time is more precious than gold and bliss too

 

 

now, for my two cents, or kroners, or whatever...

it was said here that qigong is part of neigong, there are people that think qigong, or yang sheng, is designed to sustain heavy achemy processes. i indeed approve on that. without solid qigong formation, neigong and bliss is just... not it.

now for the system busters... there is no such thing as a system buster with good effects, only if it has the role of trying to reorganize the olden knowledge in a new format. there is no short path also. no direct experience of enlightenment and bliss, this is only fairy tale. without proper preparation and understanding, these are only beautiful but fleeting experiences that wont last, it will be much like a quick fire that ends as quickly... we will see what happens with this kunlun in the next fiew years.

listen, thing are to be done in a specific order, and in a specific way, unless you get what those are, you are just happily feeding your egos with energy-inflated illusions, thats it. any system that brags to be the short way and the system buster, is not worth the time studying.

 

if you take the energy practice out of a person, just as you take out a layer, what is there that remains underneath, if anything...

chinese people are really pragmatic and survivor-like. we turned their stuff into something it barely resembles its root.

stop being so obtuse, and try to see the fine difference between the inner self and ego, what feed which, and you will be far better off, than wasting your time looking for the wonderlands of alice.

 

sorry for the harsh tone, but this issue really got on my toes, i dont know how much i can bear it any longer...

Edited January 11, 2008 by Little1

[thaddeus]

What we have to remember is that there is virtue to be found in every person's path, and if we close our minds to the treasures around us we may miss out on the ultimate prize ... Tao.

 

Just a thought...

that's cool, but i don't think you actually read anything I wrote..what am i being closed to?

T

[Stigweard]

that's cool, but i don't think you actually read anything I wrote..what am i being closed to?

T

 

Hi T,

 

Please be assured I meant no disrespect. I was just implying that every style has something of benefit to offer.

 

Warm regards

Edited January 11, 2008 by Sifu Stigweard

[thaddeus]

Hi T,

 

Please be assured I meant no disrespect. I was just implying that every style has something of benefit to offer.

 

Warm regards

oh, no problem..i did give props to yang style saying it could be looked at as a refinement of chen.

T

[Stigweard]

oh, no problem..i did give props to yang style saying it could be looked at as a refinement of chen.

T

 

 

All good

[Mal]

Seeing that this has turned into a Tai Chi discussion for a bit.

 

I once read an interview with a Tai Chi "master" (sorry can't remember which one and I didn't buy that book) and he was asked if he had his life over again what would he do different, his reply.

 

"Learn only one form"

 

My Sifu knows Chen as well as Yang. It's an old Yang style, same one as shown in Yang Chenfu's book "Essence and applications of Taijiquan" from 1934, not Erle's old style yang with the fajing.

 

So in light of the "masters" comment I asked my Sifu if there was any "use" in us learning Chen style. He answered

 

"I will teach you after you know Tong Long"

 

so I've got 5~forever years before I have a look at learning Chen

 

Also hidden in Yang Chenfu's book "Essence and applications of Taijiquan" or Fu Zhongwen's "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan" is a quote.

 

"This is the most that you can change my fathers form (The old style yang with fajing that Erle talks about) without loosing it's essence."

 

So people have been poking fun at "watered down styles" for a while. Personally I don't believe the quote as my Sigung teaches the Beijing 24 and I'm sure he wouldn't do that if he though it was without essence

[Starjumper]

Starjump seem fun, even if he confuses neigung with internal alchemy which ARE NOT the same.

 

I think maybe the confusion lies in my not having gone into enough detail. My system of Nei Kung incorporates alchemy, it is a holistic practice. I feel pretty certain that the majority of real nei kung systems also include alchemy but there are systems of alchemy which do not use nei kung. It's kind of like one is a subset of the other but they aren't always the same.

 

-----------------------------

 

The fact that Yang is a system derived from Chen is history. The idea that Yang was devised to be simpler to learn is well supported as well. This does not mean that Yang is not an awesome and effective martial art, because it can be very effective.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Mal,

 

What Tong Long forms you learnt, Saam Bo Gin? Who is your Sifu?

 

cheers

WYG

[Mal]

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Im good friends with a Tong Long Sifu here in Sydney, we meet up regulary. He teaches Chow Gar Tong Long but also studies some Jook Lum from Hong kong lines he says its completely different power to Chow Gar.

 

I teach Bak Mei it has similar hands of the Hakka Tong long kuen!

 

I agree with the taiji to balance out the hard Yang of Chow Gar but i think they also have meditation and chi kung? Swimming dragon, 18 dark palms/hands etc?

 

regards

WYG

[Mal]

Sigung has schools in Sydney, could be our lineage. Would not know of me but would know of my Sifu in Townsville. Small world

 

Yes there is meditation. I was responsible for making my brothers spending a class sitting down and learning it My Sifu personally does not do that, he prefers moving meditation (Tai Chi), but feeling like I needed to be doing seated meditation is the reason I ended up doing kunlun, to get the good 20 min stillness meditation at the end.

 

(I have not shared kunlun with my brothers, not sure that it won't send people nuts yet )

 

We were also taught our Chi Gungs right from the start, usually in our school they are only taught at the green belt level (usually that's 2~3 years) There are 10 of them, don't know any "official names" they have numbers Sifu is very much "less talk more practice". There are golden bell practices in there too apparently again we just do them.

 

At least we are in Aus so there is a chance I could show you one day. Going to practice now actually, try to pick up some remote viewing with your kunlun

 

(The kunlun jokes are for an Aussie style laugh readers, no attachment to abilities, no flames)

[Wun Yuen Gong]

There is a pic of Ip Siu in full lotus doing meditation and eye training, have you seen it?

 

I think my friend comes from Nats line but not the Sue's i could be wrong, ill get back to you on that!

 

have a good training session....

[doc benway]

All I'm saying is take a workshop with an established master of chen to see for yourself..i suggested zhu tian cai because he is the most accessible of the top chen stylists.

I appreciate the advice. I rarely do seminars anymore because I don't even have enough time to master what my shifu has given me so far. I just might make an exception and take your advice, though... I'm sure I would learn a great deal if I had the time and opportunity to train with a good Chen teacher.

From what I know about Chen Pan Ling, he incorporated alot of chinese boxing in his teaching, so he doesn't count for this..

He was very skilled and renowned in external and internal systems. He didn't really mix the two, to my knowledge - he taught them as individual practices. Remember that he was the vice president of the Central Kuoshu Academy in Chungking and it was their mission to preserve as much traditional Chinese martial knowledge as they could. It's a good thing too, as so much of it was purged. Fortunately, CPL and others saved a lot of martial knowledge when they fled to Taiwan that would otherwise have been lost. As you know, much of what is being taught in China nowadays is suspect due to the destruction of knowledge that occured during the revolution. He had planned to write books on taiji, xingyi, bagua, and external practice. Fortunately, he was convinced to write the taiji book first and sadly died before writing anything else...

So, based on your comments, of what value is the form in your training? is it just a choreography or ritual to follow in addition to the solo training? why bother with it?

T

Come on Thaddeus, you know the answers to those questions - quite as well as I, maybe better from the description of your background. You don't have to be patronizing - I was just pointing out that the techniques you referred to are not absent in other styles simply because the forms don't express fajin and altered tempo.

[WhiteTiger]

Here is a bit of special knowledge for everyone that doesn't know.

Nei Gong directly works with longevity, starting with inner first and turning into outer. A good example of how It turns into outer is by giving you vitality.

 

The meaning of Vitality as being an outer or external happening gets into Chinese Philosophy, Thought and structure of Chinese thought comes from their culture. (What some would claim Taoist and or Buddhists practices and philosophy) If you don't agree that Vitality is an external or outer example of Nei Gong practice then you hold issue not with Nei Gong itself but with the Chinese thought and philosophy. Which is why most people only know of it through practice.

 

Instead of Editing what i said to add, or clarify what i really meant. I decided that i would repost with qouting myself to where i feel i didn't make something clear. It might be a small something but in the end it changes the meaning.

 

I said "which is why most people only know of it through practice." Taking from context of my qoute you see above, i would like to add the following: Which is why most people only have understanding of this Vitality through sheer practice of the Nei Gong arts. The more you learn and the deeper you go into this vitality the more deeper you understanding becomes. The more richer you knowledge is I shall say.