Nei Gung - What is it? to Starjumper, Buddy, et al.

[thaddeus]

I was just pointing out that the techniques you referred to are not absent in other styles simply because the forms don't express fajin and altered tempo.

ahh, gotcha..nice exchange..

T

[Buddy]

While Pietro and I disagreed, we are in concurrence with BKF's neigong, although I don't think a belief in qi is necessary to practice it. I have had odd things happen but I don't think they were out of the realm of a physical nature. I also think Kumar's using the number 16 is somewhat arbitrary.

I am not discounting qi, just being agnostic.

Someone had a link here (starjumper?) to some neigong site that said their neigong is used for martial arts, that no martial training was necessary...sorry that's silly.

 

Like this:

[三江源]

.

Edited March 9, 2015 by 三江源

[VCraigP]

While Pietro and I disagreed, we are in concurrence with BKF's neigong, although I don't think a belief in qi is necessary to practice it. I have had odd things happen but I don't think they were out of the realm of a physical nature. I also think Kumar's using the number 16 is somewhat arbitrary.

I am not discounting qi, just being agnostic.

Someone had a link here (starjumper?) to some neigong site that said their neigong is used for martial arts, that no martial training was necessary...sorry that's silly.

 

Like this:

 

OK Buddy. I think I get where you are coming from now. You don't believe in Qi.

I interpret that what you mean is you don't believe in people being tossed around by Qi in a martial application.

 

But not believing in Qi at all. As in all theory about Qi, energy and how in moves in the body, Traditional Oriental Medicine...none of that either? Really I can accept that you don't believe in martial super powers related to non touch Qi emission. But you have no experience or belief in Qi as it functions in more ordinary aspects of Medicine and Qigong? ...really?

 

IF so, that's your perogative of course, but you must realize that it is not in accordance with dare I say most teachers of traditional martial arts, not to mention 99.5% of all Traditional Oriental Medical practitioners, etc.

 

Not that I am trying to convince you of anything. Just kind of boggles my mind a bit since the experience of Qi and theory and practice around this have been deeply integrated.

 

Maybe we have a definition miscommunication again? You tell me if you care to.

 

Maybe what you consider "not outside the realm of ordinary physical nature" crosses over into what others would experience as Qi?

 

Craig

Edited January 13, 2008 by VCraigP

[Starjumper]

I am not discounting qi, just being agnostic.

Someone had a link here (starjumper?) to some neigong site that said their neigong is used for martial arts, that no martial training was necessary...sorry that's silly.

 

Yes, it's silly, and it's a misinterpretation of what my website says. I will post my website again soon and also answer more of Craigs questions.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by discounting chi, but my system specializes in generating high levels so I'll explain some of the aspects of that .... soon ..... but I'm busy with some business work for a little while.

[WhiteTiger]

While Pietro and I disagreed, we are in concurrence with BKF's neigong, although I don't think a belief in qi is necessary to practice it. I have had odd things happen but I don't think they were out of the realm of a physical nature. I also think Kumar's using the number 16 is somewhat arbitrary.

I am not discounting qi, just being agnostic.

Someone had a link here (starjumper?) to some neigong site that said their neigong is used for martial arts, that no martial training was necessary...sorry that's silly.

 

Like this:

 

I've been attacked before where it through me, i don't know if you must know how to utilize your chi, but it was a spiraling motion taught (what i was told) Ba Gua. Where the practioner through me and i went back about 4 or 5 feet. I wasn't trying to resist it at all... infact it felt uncomfortable as if he was attacking my energy... my cultivated ability. So i was also trying to stay as far away from the whatever the hell i felt he projecting in a destructive way. Even talking about it makes me kinda relive what heppened. I naturally just laughed while my throat opened up completely in and vibrating from the laughter. I did feel a slight but did not stay consistent after i was attacked that as inside my belly area things were not working. I think from the little i've studied this is was in a destructive manner of lowering my functions (elements in my body, Taoist organs have elements in each one) After he demonstrated on me the uncomfortable feeling slowly dissipated. He of course asked me in a nice concerned voice if i was ok. another thing he had said was he was a internal martial artist he didn't believe in grabbing my arm using his thumb. He grabbed me and through me with only 4 fingers on my wrist granted a i was allowing myself to move back i didn't feel comfortable or safe. So i tried as best as i could to stay away from that we can call destructive force. From then on I learned from him (He was one of my teachers) that i didn't want to ever question things i didn't see or understand anymore. But hopfully learn these things without getting hurt once again.

 

Another time with a different teacher my arm was grabbed pulling on it i was decently (for my level at the time) hit right slightly higher then the bicep's tendon that connects into where the elbow area is. I felt weakness throughout my hold body time slowed honestly, and my concentration had gone and i felt weakness in my whole body but my muscles of my legs were in a stance and i couldn't sustain myself i dropped straight down. Without ability to control myself. After I immediately got up and really thought I could handle another one that hard and I told him I was not ready for that. Not in full concentration, to resist things happening to me like that so I strained my brain and concentration with my awareness opened as best as i could for the next one. He said sorry he thought i could handle it he didn't really hit me that hard. I already understood his intention wasn't to hurt me. I knew this I felt it. He did also react slightly in some surprise to me falling down. Although i can't be 100% sure of how well my awareness was at the state of it happening to me. Did it again not as hard and I felt the weakness all over me. Starting to realize if he hit me just as hard as the first time maybe i wouldn't be able to continue standing no matter how i strained my concentration my brain to focus and to open my awareness as much as i have cultivated it to. I knew I would still feel the weakness all over and wouldn't really be able to do something or counter it if i was already hit.

 

I'm still extremely skeptic about this stuff... but I've felt some things in the past. I am a testimonial of things like this happening... then again I'm not in any way trying to profit from it, nor am i trying to give money to my teachers by telling whom did this and so forth. Also want to say I know there are ways to strengthen this functions or elements within the body that are connected to an organ (two actually, you could call one solid organs and the other hallow organs.) As to what activities or ways to strengthen them no teacher has clearily stated.

Edited January 13, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Buddy]

Please read what I wrote and not what you interpret. I said I do not discount qi. I certainly don't believe in this no touch nonsense nor any of the silliness from the video. Qi is a particular paradigm that has yet to be proven. But what are we talking about? Wei Qi? Zhong Qi? Yuan Qi? My point is you don't need a belief in qi to make neigong work.

Wang Xiangzhai didn't seem to bother with it overmuch and he was a fairly successful martial artists. Does qi exist? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it doesn't matter.

[VCraigP]

Please read what I wrote and not what you interpret. I said I do not discount qi. I certainly don't believe in this no touch nonsense nor any of the silliness from the video. Qi is a particular paradigm that has yet to be proven. But what are we talking about? Wei Qi? Zhong Qi? Yuan Qi? My point is you don't need a belief in qi to make neigong work.

Wang Xiangzhai didn't seem to bother with it overmuch and he was a fairly successful martial artists. Does qi exist? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it doesn't matter.

 

No disrespect Buddy. With few words to read one naturally has to try to figure out what is being said and not written.

I respect your agnostic position. I am not talking about a specific type of Qi, more exploring the fact that you said you don't believe in it. Now you are naming different flavors of Qi which seems strange since you don't believe in them. You are right on some level it doesn't matter. Great power and accomplishment is possible in Martial Arts without the necessity to consciously explore Qi. In fact many schools frown upon actually moving Qi or doing anything with the mind as it relates to the flow of Qi.

 

"you don't need a belief in Qi to make Neigong work" This could be true. It seems strange to me that you could go very far into such practice without some experience of the movement of Qi. However as I said before I think it is very possible that what one person might experience as "ordinary physical phenomenon" could very well be interpreted as Qi and its effects by another.

 

Hey, I am just an ordinary practitioner of Qigong, not Neigong and not advanced in IMA.

 

Maybe I am missing out, but I am getting benefit from what I practice.

 

Off to Sunday morning practice...

 

Craig

[Buddy]

"I am not talking about a specific type of Qi, more exploring the fact that you said you don't believe in it. Now you are naming different flavors of Qi which seems strange since you don't believe in them."

 

Craig,

I didn't say I didn't believe in it. I said I was agnostic. If qi exists I don't think it's necessary to pay much attention to it. I am more concerned about yi. If we do meridian work, we can say we are working with qi. But really it is yi. In the Taiji Classics there is a saying, "The qi is the banner and the mind is the commander." Where the commander commands the banner to go, it goes. All the inner physical manipulation that goes on inside the body is done by using the mind to control. If I want to teach you how to...expand the lower back by use of your breath, I might say, "Bring your breath to your lower back." Well, the breath can only ever be in the lungs, not the lower back. But the mind uses the feeling of the breath to manipulate your inner body. Qigong is a newer term. For me it means breath work. Qigong is a part of neigong. Then, as Pietro pointed out, there is internal alchemy and meditation. Make sense?

What kind of qigong do you do?

 

Buddy

[VCraigP]

"I am not talking about a specific type of Qi, more exploring the fact that you said you don't believe in it. Now you are naming different flavors of Qi which seems strange since you don't believe in them."

 

Craig,

I didn't say I didn't believe in it. I said I was agnostic. If qi exists I don't think it's necessary to pay much attention to it. I am more concerned about yi. If we do meridian work, we can say we are working with qi. But really it is yi. In the Taiji Classics there is a saying, "The qi is the banner and the mind is the commander." Where the commander commands the banner to go, it goes. All the inner physical manipulation that goes on inside the body is done by using the mind to control. If I want to teach you how to...expand the lower back by use of your breath, I might say, "Bring your breath to your lower back." Well, the breath can only ever be in the lungs, not the lower back. But the mind uses the feeling of the breath to manipulate your inner body. Qigong is a newer term. For me it means breath work. Qigong is a part of neigong. Then, as Pietro pointed out, there is internal alchemy and meditation. Make sense?

What kind of qigong do you do?

 

Buddy

 

Currently I am practicing a form called 28 Lunar mansions Qi gong which is from the Ermei Zhengong school.

I study with Master Wu Zhongxian as much as possible. I have learned several Qigong forms from him including the Shamanic Tiger qigong which is in part the subject of his book "Vital Breath of the Tao".

 

I have been working on doing the form daily for 49 days following learning the form in order to get it planted for further cultivation. Master Wu recommends doing new practices daily for 49 days in order to really "get" them. This form has 28 different movements or postures. It is quite rigorous, I would have to say the most physical form I have yet done in some sense because of the nature of several of the moves. Took about an hour to do it this morning with my two practice partners and we were all quite worn out physically at the end.

 

We had intended to practice the 75 move Taiji form also taught by Master Wu ( Wudang He style Taiji, aka Zhaobao village Taiji) but we were all a bit worn out so...

 

So lately this Qigong set and Taiji practice are my practice. Don't have the opportunity to work regularly with a master on my Taiji, but I have enough to practice for now.

 

Thanks for asking.

 

Craig

[doc benway]

Qi is a word - nothing more.

 

The word is never the thing. This particular word is very problematic because of it's wide variety of usage.

It is a useful word if the parties to the discussion can agree to a definition, otherwise we're always comparing apples to oranges. Furthermore, many people rely on the concept to make a living or to feed their ego and exploit the word and gullible consumers. The vast majority of superhuman qi power demonstrations are parlor tricks or examples of a sort of hypnosis as nicely demonstrated by the youtube video above.

(...edited to avoid unnecessary conflict...)

 

On the other hand, I would be comfortable saying that just about everyone who practices internal cultivation methods (esp Chinese but also tantra, kundalini, and so on...) genuinely experiences an ineffable perception within the body at some point that is new to them and can be developed over time with training. I'm not going to try and describe it in words - I can't. I can say that to me it seems to be better described as process or relationship than by stuff or something tangible. Even energy is a suboptimal word as that implies something measurable. The taiji classics, neigong and Dao cultivation (as well as tantra, buddhist, hindu, yoga, kundalini...) writings all refer to it in some fashion and those of us who spend time in these practices know that it is there by direct experience. The "belief" in qi for me was primarily a matter of attaining the right perspective in the beginning of what the word was trying to represent. So maybe I'm just hypnotized too...

 

To me it is nothing at all magical. It is not something that one person has and another doesn't. It is part of absolutely everything and everyone. Cultivation of it to me is much more a process of sensitizing the organism's awareness than it is building up a reservoir of stuff or even energy. That perspective goes against the grain for most but it works better for me in terms of trying to communicate and understand it.

 

I've yet to see or feel a demonstration of the type of magical qi power a lot of people like to fantasize about and mock up on videotape and in demos. I'm not saying it doesn't exist but I haven't experienced that particular manifestation and, until I do, I'll maintain a healthy skepticism. I do feel and use something everyday in my meditaiton, neigong, xingyi and taiji practice (not to mention every other activity in my life) that I currently refer to with the word qi and I understand how it is used for martial as well as spiritual pursuits but I don't try to apply that word to something superhuman that I have no personal experience of.

Edited January 14, 2008 by xuesheng

[doc benway]

ahh, gotcha..nice exchange..

T

Agreed

[WhiteTiger]

I've been attacked before where it through me, i don't know if you must know how to utilize your chi, but it was a spiraling motion taught (what i was told) Ba Gua. Where the practioner through me and i went back about 4 or 5 feet. I wasn't trying to resist it at all... infact it felt uncomfortable as if he was attacking my energy... my cultivated ability. So i was also trying to stay as far away from the whatever the hell i felt he projecting in a destructive way. Even talking about it makes me kinda relive what heppened. I naturally just laughed while my throat opened up completely in and vibrating from the laughter. I did feel a slight but did not stay consistent after i was attacked that as inside my belly area things were not working. I think from the little i've studied this is was in a destructive manner of lowering my functions (elements in my body, Taoist organs have elements in each one) After he demonstrated on me the uncomfortable feeling slowly dissipated. He of course asked me in a nice concerned voice if i was ok. another thing he had said was he was a internal martial artist he didn't believe in grabbing my arm using his thumb. He grabbed me and through me with only 4 fingers on my wrist granted a i was allowing myself to move back i didn't feel comfortable or safe. So i tried as best as i could to stay away from that we can call destructive force. From then on I learned from him (He was one of my teachers) that i didn't want to ever question things i didn't see or understand anymore. But hopfully learn these things without getting hurt once again.

 

Another time with a different teacher my arm was grabbed pulling on it i was decently (for my level at the time) hit right slightly higher then the bicep's tendon that connects into where the elbow area is. I felt weakness throughout my hold body time slowed honestly, and my concentration had gone and i felt weakness in my whole body but my muscles of my legs were in a stance and i couldn't sustain myself i dropped straight down. Without ability to control myself. After I immediately got up and really thought I could handle another one that hard and I told him I was not ready for that. Not in full concentration, to resist things happening to me like that so I strained my brain and concentration with my awareness opened as best as i could for the next one. He said sorry he thought i could handle it he didn't really hit me that hard. I already understood his intention wasn't to hurt me. I knew this I felt it. He did also react slightly in some surprise to me falling down. Although i can't be 100% sure of how well my awareness was at the state of it happening to me. Did it again not as hard and I felt the weakness all over me. Starting to realize if he hit me just as hard as the first time maybe i wouldn't be able to continue standing no matter how i strained my concentration my brain to focus and to open my awareness as much as i have cultivated it to. I knew I would still feel the weakness all over and wouldn't really be able to do something or counter it if i was already hit.

 

I'm still extremely skeptic about this stuff... but I've felt some things in the past. I am a testimonial of things like this happening... then again I'm not in any way trying to profit from it, nor am i trying to give money to my teachers by telling whom did this and so forth. Also want to say I know there are ways to strengthen this functions or elements within the body that are connected to an organ (two actually, you could call one solid organs and the other hallow organs.) As to what activities or ways to strengthen them no teacher has clearily stated.

 

I understand most people haven't or don't respond to what I write. Thats fine. But i want to make it extra specially known that all these experiences are when I'm being touched. I have not had enough experience in learning from a teacher of what I have been exposed to explain it, the way his formal education explains what these things are in words. Yet, it haunts me. I don't want to have these abilities to through people, to hit them and make them weak all over. The reason for me learning these things are learning an art of making my thoughts pure my intent right and clear, with knowing i someday have strong ability. But yet at all the same time. I perfer the art of having Yin and Yang equal or balanced. I personally and deeply want it to come from inside of me, sure i will take the help of someone balancing out my Yin and Yang but as long as i could (once there balanced) could leave that teacher in peace and harmony and always able to sustain myself Yin and Yang, which means i could use the help of a teacher but in the end it must come from inside me. I seek the art of perfecting one self and also taking the path with the least resistance. Honestly my biggest problem is finding a teacher that doesn't hinder my path of least resistance but rather is there to help guide me. I do not ask them to inspire me the way there. But i call upon there guidance, there own wisdom and knowledge to help guide me. I do not in any way want them to take me there or help take me there. Its mine to follow and also mine alone to follow, but guidance doesn't interfere. You choose to follow it or not. You feel resistance you know automatically that some learnt thing you did, some guidance, some practice you learned or got the idea from somewhere is wrong. I personally plan to end that resistance right then and there every time i feel it happening.

Edited January 14, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Mal]

[WhiteTiger]

Edited January 15, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Starjumper]

While Pietro and I disagreed, we are in concurrence with BKF's neigong, although I don't think a belief in qi is necessary to practice it. I have had odd things happen but I don't think they were out of the realm of a physical nature.

 

I agree that absolutely no belief in chi is needed to practice nei kung, it should be entirely experiential. Also, some things which seem extraordinary, like special abilities, might seem to defy physics but most can be explained. I have experienced things with chi that do defy my understanding of physics though, and I'm an ardent student of nuclear, astro, and quantum physics.

[Pietro]

Thank you for posting the above to help define what you understand as Nei gong. Again, I point out it is not necessary to denigrate Buddy who freely expressed his perspective. It would be more constructive for the purpose of this thread at least to just take peoples comments as they are. Your contention with Buddy has been very evident to anyone paying attention. I am more interested in hearing where people are coming from, i.e. what is their understanding, than in trying to show who is right and who is wrong.

 

So you have shown a very detailed description of the practice and goals of K.F.'s method of Nei gong.

 

Thank you for that it is instructive.

 

Perhaps you to demonstrate the difference between Nei gong as you understand it and "internal alchemy" you could post a similar description of what it is.

 

Thanks

 

Craig

 

Hello Craig,

sorry for not answering you before. We had connections issues here in the office. And I have no internet at home at the moment.

 

I personally see/understand internal alchemy as being transformation and transmutation of energy.

If you are going from qi to shen by balancing different polarities, that would be internal alchemy. Similarly if you transform energy from one organ to another that also I see it as internal alchemy. As you can see from the 16 nei gung system this is just a couple of points.

 

You can expand the term to include others, but you can hardly get all 16 under the banner of internal alchemy.

 

And yes, Buddy, the number 16 is somehow arbitrary. But is this is not me and Buddy agreeing, but Buddy agreeing with Bruce. He said so (Ulm, 2001 -about-, weekend workshop on the 16 nei gung system).

 

Of course the assumption that I take (and that Buddy probably does not accept, or flat out denigrates) is that Bruce has taken the 16 nei gung system from a previous system. As such he did not came out with the number 16.

 

But then again in our school you first dissolve all the blockages, until you have reached unity. Which is called the body of individuality.

 

Only at that point the work progresses with internal alchemy. This because at that point you just can't dissolve any longer. The blockages are gone. As such in the water way, the internal alchemy is used only as a very advanced form. I am not there yet, and as such I can't comment on that. Nor can I give a better description of it.

 

Hope that helped.

Pietro

[Buddy]

Of course the assumption that I take (and that Buddy probably does not accept, or flat out denigrates) is that Bruce has taken the 16 nei gung system from a previous system. As such he did not came out with the number 16."

 

I've already mentioned where Bruce got a large part of his stuff...the Cheng Ming crowd. 16 is arbitrary because the skills overlap. That they are a convenient mnemonic for Bruce and his students is fine, no problem from me. It doesn't matter enough to me to dispute overmuch, the goodness of the work stands.

I'd been around the block before meeting Bruce...(1987 or so?), and when I first was convinced to shell out $175 bucks (so much cheaper back then) for a weekend and saw him, I thought Oh my God, who's this fat Greek American guy?

 

But I learned more in 15 hours than I had in 15 years. And that was the first time I did Energy Gates.

[rain]

.......................

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[Mal]

And I guess my body didn't get numb. I'm trying to describe a feeling that is complex in understanding of what exactly was felt.

 

Yes I do Southern Tong Long. Shame we can't touch hands as it much easier to just show stuff then talk about it. Good description though, as you said the low stance could have been the reason, high stances in Tong Long.

 

Have fun.

[WhiteTiger]

Yes I do Southern Tong Long. Shame we can't touch hands as it much easier to just show stuff then talk about it. Good description though, as you said the low stance could have been the reason, high stances in Tong Long.

 

Have fun.

 

I would love to touch hands. Although I'm not much of a fighter... even though we would be doing things that aren't fighting... But me saying I'm not a fighter already hits at the fact that I'm nothing specially conditioned. To be honest I think I'm total crap. My school taught me forms. Taught me some great techniques but never expanded or practiced that much on conditioning the body other then body mind focus on performing forms. Once again I would love to touch hands. But honestly I'm telling already your gunna woop my a$$!

 

Yeah, I practiced pretty low stance... I am and was supposed to be able to put a staff along my thighs with the staff not rolling down while in mabu. (between the wedge of the thighs and the lower abbs is where the staff should lie). So my schools standards were respectable, but on the more fit to be a real looking martial artist and to show dedication. As for me... some would say in my school that my stances where high. But from what I've seen good martial artists doing low stance I'm really not all that bad... just not the best or reach the highest standards of my school standards :/.

 

In fact i don't think our school taught us how to fight. Supposedly, all the teachers were fighters in the school. There understanding if wanting to learn how to fight was start a fight at the school. Fair play there "JUST PRACTICING" When i often asked the teachers at my school, I wanted to learn how to fight the only acceptable answer for a reason to actually practice was to do as the that story or similar ones hinting at just swing at the teacher. Honestly the thought process was you will learn how to block my hit if you attack me after you have attacked me enough times. Of course the untold understanding of it, depended if you and the teacher had held a very good relationship thats how kind he would be when he attacked you for hitting him. (I called it a block even though the word, is inadequate).

 

So yeah I never had the nerve, also I don't believe in that sort of disrespect of someone... no matter how angry or mad you are or however uncontrolled of yourself you feel You are not a reason to physically hurt someone. It is another story if you have a fist flying at you.

 

P.S. No, that doesn't mean i'm gunna give you money to whooped me

Edited January 16, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Mal]

To be honest I think I'm total crap

haha What makes you think that I'm not crap too, my Mabu looks more like goat riding There are some great martial artists out there but I'm not one of them.

 

My Sifu's students are older adults, some of us are fat and most of us have old injuries from past arts. You would not want to make us run around a football oval! But the body conditioning is pretty good from doing jongs (paired up contact practice) and conditioning drills all the time.

 

Sifu teaches more along the lines of working with what you've got, rather than making us super fit. Although he does say we can do that in out own time if we want, he does not like to waste class time doing fitness drills etc.

[Starjumper]

To add a little more perspective to my practice and to learn what nei kung can be, here is a partial list of energy abilities I've developed as a result of the practice.

 

Special abilities thread at ET

 

 

Keep in mind that before I started I never felt energy and doubted that it existed.

 

OK, boys and girls, here's the link to my website: Tien Shan Chi Kung

 

Here's a detailed description of my nei kung versus chi kung: Detailed description

 

This page describes some details of how we do it: Chi Kung vs. Yoga

 

All you wowie zowie junkies will want to read the pages in the Deep End

 

This page explains how my practice is represented in Star Wars; The Star Wars connection

 

This one is for the bliss junkies:Seeking?

 

And this one is for craig, who asked what it means to go to the mountain top: The Taoist path of the immortal

 

This page explains achieving mastery in chi kung, it's for all you quick'n'easy junkies: Mastery

 

There are also pages on radar hands and the physics of it.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

In the heart of Asia lies the enormous, mysterious massif of the Tian Shan Mountains, from which rivers flow East from the timbered ridges of the Sayan to sink and die in the hot sands of Western Khayan, it stretches over a huge portion of Central Asia.

 

The cradle of peoples, histories and legends; the native land of bloody conquerors, who have left nearby their capitals covered by the sand of the Gobi, their mysterious rings and their ancient nomad laws; the states of monks and evil devils, the country of wandering tribes administered by the descendants of Genghiz Khan and Kublai Khan, the Khans and Princes of the Junior lines: that is Tien Shan.

 

Tien Shan, the land of mysterious doctors, prophets, sorcerers, fortune-tellers and witches; the land which has not forgotten the thoughts of the long deceased great potentates of Asia and of half of Europe: that is Tien Shan.

 

Tien Shan, the land of nude mountains, of plains burned by the sun and killed by the cold; the land of boiling hot springs and of mountain passes inhabited by demons; of sacred lakes swarming with fish; of wolves, rare species of deer and mountain goats, marmots in millions, wild horses, wild donkeys and wild camels that have never known the bridle, ferocious dogs and rapacious birds of prey which devour the dead bodies cast out on the plains by the people: that is Tien Shan.

 

Tien Shan, the land whose disappearing primitive people gaze upon the bones of their forefathers whitening in the sands and dust of their plains; where are dying out the people who formerly conquered China, Siam, Northern India and Russia.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Buddy]

"It is a Martial Chi Kung because it is the type of Chi Kung that enhances speed of movement, it trains and enhances striking power at a fundamental level, and it increases sensitivity, agility, and certain psychic benefits which are a benefit to self defense. It teaches self defense abilities on a subconcious level, similar to the way Tai Chi does, but in a more subtle way."

 

Pffft.