Nei Gung - What is it? to Starjumper, Buddy, et al.

[VCraigP]

Question for Starjumper, Buddy and anyone else who would care to answer from experience.

 

I'm afraid I need to toot my own horn to provide some backing for my opinion here, but I spent six years of intensive training learning a real Nei Kung system from a very advanced and powerful master I realize that many of you don't have have access to a real master,

 

The Various types of holding the ball meditations (sitting or standing) are on of the hallmarks of Taoist meditations.

 

If you want to learn the real thing you'll need to plan on living in Seattle for four years, at least.

 

 

Hi Starjumper

 

With all respect due. I don't know you, you don't know me.

 

Can you define for me what is a REAL NEI GUNG system?

What are the goals of Real Nei Gung practice?

What is the difference between Qi gong practice and Nei gong?

What are the results of having achieved the "mountaintop"

 

People have bandied about the term Nei Gung quite frequently of late. I think I have an idea of what it means although I always assume my knowledge is incomplete, but perhaps you can tell me what it means to you.

I also get the idea that many folks who use the term could not answer my questions.

 

Anyone else care to answer the above?

 

Definitions gleaned from searching the internet are not sought here. Answers from Experience are sought.

 

Thank you.

 

Humbly.

 

Craig

[Buddy]

I have no idea what "starjumper" is bragging about. Let's start with the literal definition of neigong. It simply means internal work. It was the term used before the term qigong became popular. The system of neigong I teach (from BK Frantzis) is about learning how to feel and then manipulate the inner body.

[VCraigP]

I have no idea what "starjumper" is bragging about. Let's start with the literal definition of neigong. It simply means internal work. It was the term used before the term qigong became popular. The system of neigong I teach (from BK Frantzis) is about learning how to feel and then manipulate the inner body.

 

Umm, OK. Care to expand upon that at all?

 

Nourishing Life exercise also preceded the term Qigong (sorry forgot the Chinese translation of that term).

 

By "inner body" do you mean what others term the energy body?

 

Also, maybe expand upon the four questions I posed if you care to.

 

How does Neigong differ from Qigong - you seem to be saying it is the same.

 

What is the goal of Neigong. What characteristics does it have which differ from Qigong or Internal Martial Arts trainng.

 

Someone said

"Neigong" is the operating system of my training.

 

What does this mean to you?

 

I am trying to explore this from the perspective of a beginner and make no assumptions. Your input is appreciated.

 

Craig

[Cameron]

From my limited understanding Nei Kung implies Alchemy and inner work. More inner meditations and practices. Like Red Phoenix that Max teaches, Kan and Li that Winn teaches etc seem to be what Nei Kung is about.

 

Qigong is more like excercise. Movements and practices that build qi or stretch the body but don't necissarily work with the deep channels(like Red Phoenix, Kan and Li etc)

 

Am always open to learn more about this though for sure.

[Starjumper]

Chi Kung usually consist of smaller subsets of very extensive Nei kung systems and most chi kung systems leave out the higher power techniques because they don't know about them or aren't oriented in that way. A couple of exercises taken out of context out of a Nei Kung system is not Nei Kung. It's a couple of chi kung exercises taken out of context is all.

 

Chi Kung is frequently for healing the sick while Nei Kung is more oriented towards developing supermen and women starting with people who are already, ideally, very healthy. Chi Kung is oftenmore along the lines of medical chi kung. Nei Kung is spiritually oriented at it's higher levels while chi kung may be but is frequenlty either not or it's weak.

 

Chi Kung may be either internal or external but Nei Kung is always internal.

 

Concerning moving to Seattle for four years I was going to address this more fully in the Pillars thread, but trust me, I REALLY do not want a bunch of students coming to Seattle. At this time I only want one or two more and they should be living in North Seattle already. The point I was aiming at is that if you want to really learn a real Nei kung system the way it is taught by a very advanced master (not me, I'm his student) that you need to spend at least four years in close proximity with the master or the adept that knows the high power system and not going to seminars. Not going to seminars. Since the only people that I know for sure that are teaching this high level Nei Kung live in Seattle then that explains my comment. I was going to say in the other thread that I think Frantzis also knows high level chi kung but I don't know how much of his extensive knowledge he shares with non inner door students. In any case you would need to live in the city where he or one of his adept student teachers is living for several years to get a good start in it.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Starjumper7

[thaddeus]

My thoughts..first, Starjumper..would be interested in knowing who that teacher is.

 

Second, neigung is just a word and it means different things to different people. I read that qigong is a relatively new term popularized in the mid 1900s and before that it was simply referred to as neigung. As buddy pointed out, it's just a word that means internal work. To assign definitions to it and contrast it with qigong is probably not going to be very productive. I would question any system that is bent on drawing distinctions between qigong and neigung.

 

What I look for is results. If I'm practicing a system and it's not helping me feel more youthful, vibrant and successful and the teacher and other practicioners don't seem to be improving in any way, then it's not a good system for me. Faith gets you started, but results are what count.

 

I like a neigung/qigong system that makes sense and leads to results. There should also be an underlying principle that can be articulated simply without alot of mumbo jumbo nonsense.

T

[VCraigP]

Chi Kung usually consist of smaller subsets of very extensive Nei kung systems and most chi kung systems leave out the higher power techniques because they don't know about them or aren't oriented in that way. A couple of exercises taken out of context out of a Nei Kung system is not Nei Kung. It's a couple of chi kung exercises taken out of context is all.

 

Chi Kung is frequently for healing the sick while Nei Kung is more oriented towards developing supermen and women starting with people who are already, ideally, very healthy. Chi Kung is oftenmore along the lines of medical chi kung. Nei Kung is spiritually oriented at it's higher levels while chi kung may be but is frequenlty either not or it's weak.

 

Chi Kung may be either internal or external but Nei Kung is always internal.

 

Concerning moving to Seattle for four years I was going to address this more fully in the Pillars thread, but trust me, I REALLY do not want a bunch of students coming to Seattle. At this time I only want one or two more and they should be living in North Seattle already. The point I was aiming at is that if you want to really learn a real Nei kung system the way it is taught by a very advanced master (not me, I'm his student) that you need to spend at least four years in close proximity with the master or the adept that knows the high power system and not going to seminars. Not going to seminars. Since the only people that I know for sure that are teaching this high level Nei Kung live in Seattle then that explains my comment. I was going to say in the other thread that I think Frantzis also knows high level chi kung but I don't know how much of his extensive knowledge he shares with non inner door students. In any case you would need to live in the city where he or one of his adept student teachers is living for several years to get a good start in it.

hmmmm

 

OK. I know I didn't say anything about moving to Seattle...

 

 

So does Nei gong = Inner Alchemy?

You seem to have answered one of the questions I posed:

What is the difference between Qi gong practice and Nei gong?

 

What about these-

Can you define for me what is a REAL NEI GUNG system?

What are the goals of Real Nei Gung practice?

 

What are the results of having achieved the "mountaintop"

 

I am not asking you to reveal anything specific about your school, just want to understand better.

Neigong as a System is sort of a new concept to me, especially the way you and others have presented it recently. Also you seem to be saying that in your view Most if not All Qigong being taught is just incomplete or only watered down like Medical Qigong for example.

 

Thanks for taking the time.

 

Craig

[三江源]

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Edited March 9, 2015 by 三江源

[mYTHmAKER]

Chi Kung may be either internal or external but Nei Kung is always internal.

 

If chi gong is eternal doesn't it become exercise and no longer chi gong.

 

Who is your teacher if I may be so bold to ask.

Thanks

[Stigweard]

[mYTHmAKER]

[Stigweard]

Nice avatar

 

Right back at ya

[Starjumper]

hmmmm

 

OK. I know I didn't say anything about moving to Seattle...

 

Your first post included a question about Seattle, so I was forced to respond to it.

 

So does Nei gong = Inner Alchemy?

 

Yes.

 

You seem to have answered one of the questions I posed:

What is the difference between Qi gong practice and Nei gong?

 

What about these-

Can you define for me what is a REAL NEI GUNG system?

What are the goals of Real Nei Gung practice?

 

I did answer what some of the main goals were in my first post

 

What are the results of having achieved the "mountaintop"

 

I might repost the link to my website to explain these things but I need to run along now to teach a class.

 

In answer to some of the other concepts. chi kung and nei kung may have interchangeable meanings but they are different. Nei Kung is often used by martial artists.

 

The term Nei Kung was more commonly used in the past because more people commonly did Nei Kung, these were the hard core martial artists and spiritual seekers, they were dedicated. It was simplified for the masses of people more interested in health, which then made Chi Kung more popular. It was simplifies for the same reason Chen tai chi was simplified and produced Yang tai chi, to make it more acceptable by the masses of people who were more interested in health and more casual exercise.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Starjumper7

[VCraigP]

Your first post included a question about Seattle, so I was forced to respond to it.

Yes.

I did answer what some of the main goals were in my first post

I might repost the link to my website to explain these things but I need to run along now to teach a class.

 

In answer to some of the other concepts. chi kung and nei kung may have interchangeable meanings but they are different. Nei Kung is often used by martial artists.

 

The term Nei Kung was more commonly used in the past because more people commonly did Nei Kung, these were the hard core martial artists and spiritual seekers, they were dedicated. It was simplified for the masses of people more interested in health, which then made Chi Kung more popular. It was simplifies for the same reason Chen tai chi was simplified and produced Yang tai chi, to make it more acceptable by the masses of people who were more interested in health and more casual exercise.

 

Thanks for that, this is the personal perspective I sought. I do not disagree with your perspective.

By your website I presume you mean Empirical Taoism which is on your signature.

 

It seems, from what I have gathered by the correspondence between Buddy and Pietro and your input that Nei gung(gong, kung...whatever) is comprised of a multitude of standing postures done either in a series as one progresses, or assigned by the teacher as the student requires. I assume it also has meditation, both passive and active. I was interested in a description of the process from beginner forward. Sort of an outline of what such training consists of. Not asking for secrets.

 

I respect your position. If you have said all you care to a stranger asking intimate questions I respect that as well.

Just trying to ferret out where you are coming from. I think you could say a lot about real Nei gong from a very traditional perspective. This could shed some light on a subject which could use further illumination and is often misunderstood or not really known at all.

 

I have studied Martial Arts for a long time 25-30 years depending upon where you put the starting point.

I have practiced and explored meditation for longer than that. Explored various styles of Qigong and internal MA since the mid 80's. I know I have learned only a little. Enough to seek out what I consider a Real teacher and plunge wholeheartedly into everything he can teach me however limited that might be from your perspective, which I have done since 2006.

I have a pretty good idea of how much I do not know. This is why I ask with a beginners mind about Nei gong. Although I have an idea of my own what Internal Alchemy - Nei gong is, I was not sure what your idea is, or what a traditional approach to this subject is. Pop Taoism doesn't really cover it in my opinion. I think you know what I mean by Pop Taoism.

 

By the way. I have to point out that No where did I mention Seattle. I live near Portland, but I never said anything about coming to Seattle in this thread or elsewhere. Married with kids, not available for long term comittment to a teacher and moving to a new city.

 

I hope you had a good class. As for myself, I was off coaching my Son's Basketball team.

How's that for a slice of ordinary Americana.

 

With respect Sifu Starjumper

 

Craig

Edited January 11, 2008 by VCraigP

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Ive missed the website for starjumper can someone please post it?

[Buddy]

"Buddy, hi. Could you give an example of how you learn to feel and manipulate the inner body? That would be very useful, since I am puzzled about what you mean when you say that."

 

 

I could (maybe) and I might but you seem to just dismiss my ideas on the outset...so what's the point. Come see me and I could show you quite readily.

 

"What aspect of the inner body are you feeling? What aspect are you manipulating?"

 

 

See, heres' the thing. I'm a martial art guy. I KNOW what I feel and I manipulate. Clearly you don't.

 

"How do you know you are succeeding?"

 

And it's this sort of question that makes me feel you're just trolling. Come see me I'll show you. Come see me and I will SHOW you.

 

I don't know that you could understand it if you can't duplicate it in your body. And that's the real issue for me. I don't think you have the capacity to understand it if you can't do it. I know I didn't.

 

 

If I told you I can open and close the vertebrae of my spine...or my skull...or lengthen at will the soft tissue of my body...or open and close my internal cavities...or my individual joints...or....or why would believe me?

 

These are real skills that I can readily demonstrate. Not some bullshit idea of defending ones self by some mysterious "neigong" power.

This...is neigong.

[WhiteTiger]

I only read the first post. I personally got into a big discussion of how important Nei Gong is to Tai Chi. I am linking the topic.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/different-teachi...aiji-t4404.html

 

My only point i was trying to make is for all the Tai Chi practitioners that thought they were learning tai chi couldn't be learning Tai Chi unless they learned Nei Gong, maybe not full blown Nei Gong but began the beginning of it. I also am not affiliated with the tai chi association i mention in the forum but that is a good example of a place that openly teaches a whole bunch of things from the start, this includes Nei Gong!

 

I shall clearly state that I do not have enough experience to clearly define what the difference between QiGong and Nei Gong is i will also clearly state i know enough to honestly through some experience, to tell weather people know what there talking about or not. If i practice something, and only feel a few sensations here and there I'm waiting to learn more until i have truly learned all of the Nei Gong!

 

Although i continuously say that I'm a beginner student, its always good to have knowledge about things before you are giving your money away and learning relatively nothing. I spent three years practicing Kung Fu. I felt I learned less then the amount I payed for. By a whole lot! (Yes i felt cheated, and it was supposidly one of the best schools around, better then any other schools in the area at the time, through the three years I of course got to know other schools in the area, (not as if i looked at all of them, but i still thought little of them)

 

 

Here is a bit of special knowledge for everyone that doesn't know.

Nei Gong directly works with longevity, starting with inner first and turning into outer. A good example of how It turns into outer is by giving you vitality.

 

The meaning of Vitality as being an outer or external happening gets into Chinese Philosophy, Thought and structure of Chinese thought comes from their culture. (What some would claim Taoist and or Buddhists practices and philosophy) If you don't agree that Vitality is an external or outer example of Nei Gong practice then you hold issue not with Nei Gong itself but with the Chinese thought and philosophy. Which is why most people only know of it through practice.

Edited January 11, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Mal]

[Starjumper]

I'll comment on some random comments that I can recall here, I'm getting message boarded out.

 

Craig, you are correct, you didn't mention Seattle, but it was mentioned in the quoted part of your first post which is why i felt I needed to explain it.

 

People seem curious about my practice so I have modified my forum. Previously only allowed individuals could read the practices section but I have given in and have made it viewable by all members. Non members can't read it as I don't want search engines in there. My forum is not my website, I unlisted my website because it contained the name of my teacher. I have removed the name and am contemplating reposting the link to my website in my signature.

 

People asked what my teacher's name is. It doesn't matter what his name is. He is 95. He is retired. He never taught in schools, only in his garage, and only to very few. He is a very private individual and doesn't want people bothering him. He has always avoided publicity. No one knows his name except for a few of the top martial artists in Seattle. However news reporters sometimes come from Hong Kong to interview him and he is more well known there than in his own home town. So please understand I do not want to reveal his name, he is one of the hidden masters.

 

Craig, you asked about what our practice is like. It is as follows: We do a few minutes of warm ups and then do an hour to two of usually slow moving exercises that can be quite strenuous. Some of the exercises are so slow that it is basically like standing meditation, at least it derives the same benefits. We also do quite a few different kinds of shaking exercises and at higher levels some chi packing. Most chi packing is very dangerous but our version is relatively safe. Our practice focus ses on cultivating high energy and high levels of hand power.

 

After the standing we do various sitting exercises which includes some kicking, self flagellation, and self massage. Then we do meditations which consist of many different postures, the posture changes almost every week for years. After meditation we do a few cooling down/calming exercises.

 

The exercises change steadily over the years so that thousands of techniques are learned. The practice is a Taoist sorcerer's practice, the full 100% deal.

 

Now I need to take a break from message boards.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Starjumper7

[AugustLeo]

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[Starjumper]

I'm glad you liked it =)

 

I just came back on here to add a piece about my practice which I neglected to mention for Craig and that is that during the sitting exercises we do plenty of leg shaking and we also do some leg shaking during meditations.

[三江源]

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Edited March 9, 2015 by 三江源

[宁]

jeez Starjumper, there's enough craze with kunlun neigong, so why not adding a bit to it kiddin

i am just curious though, if, during... say... 12 or 24 months, a couple of guys will show up, each with a bad-ass system that blows it all, will the trooper party move on from one to the other... i think so, it's silly, amusing, and i also behave like a fart sometimes... cant help it but i prefer you instead of Mantra, that's for sure

[Pietro]

but i prefer you instead of Mantra, that's for sure

Yeah, we should vote for what the next craze should be, after K.

Starjump seem fun, even if he confuses neigung with internal alchemy which ARE NOT the same.

 

At least his system is positively hard to study, at least logistically, that we are not going to be surrounded by experts all at once wanting to teach around.

 

Regarding how internal alchemy and neigung are not the same, they are not in the system I am studying, and if there is even one system in which the two are different, evidently the two terms cannot be interchanged.

 

As for giving example of Nei Gung from Buddy system, maybe the best is to recall the 16 nei gung system from Bruce:

 

 

 

1. Breathing methods, in increasing complexity.

2. Feeling, moving, transforming and transmuting internal energies along the Energy channels of the body.

3. Precise body alignments.

4. Dissolving physical, emotional and spiritual blockages.

5. Moving energy through the body's meridian channels and energy gates.

6. Bending and stretching the body, inside out and outside in.

7. Opening and closing all parts of the body's tissues, joints and subtle energy anatomy.

8. Manipulating the energy of the external Aura.

9. Making circles and spirals of energy inside the body, controlling the body's spiraling energy currents, and moving chi in the body at will.

10. Absorbing and projecting energy to and from the body.

11. Controlling energies of the spine.

12. Controlling the body's left and right energy channels.

13. Controlling the body's central energy channel.

14. Learn capabilities and uses of the body's Lower tantien.

15. Learn capabilities and uses of the body's upper and Middle tantien.

16. Connecting every part of the physical body into one unified energy.

 

But of course those are hard for someone who does not recognises the existance of energy.

[thaddeus]

I don't know that you could understand it if you can't duplicate it in your body. And that's the real issue for me. I don't think you have the capacity to understand it if you can't do it. I know I didn't.

If I told you I can open and close the vertebrae of my spine...or my skull...or lengthen at will the soft tissue of my body...or open and close my internal cavities...or my individual joints...or....or why would believe me?

When you said 'inner body' most of us probably didn't know what you meant. Now I see you are referring mainly to soft tissue etc., which is an area of interest to me. Can you at least say if you are using the breath as a control mechanism or only the intention?

Thanks,

T