Political Reconcilliation

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, TheWhiteRabbit said:

 

I willingly concede ...

 

 

Good post.

 

This is all about acknowledging that others may have different opinions than we have.  It isn't defining anyone right or wrong.

 

And we each have the right to hold the opinions we hold as long as we can back them up with reason and logic.

 

But really, after the question has been asked, voices were herd, decisions were made, isn't it time to get back together and work for the betterment of all concerns?

 

This last part is what we are not doing.  No different than what the Palestinians and Israelis.  Demanding concessions before accepting the offer to sit down and talk.  No talks will ever begin if we hold to this mentality.

 

And what's at the root of this?  Respect.  Yes, we must earn respect.  Respect the other's opinions even if we don't agree with them.

 

Where is respect today?  Seems to me we have drifted into a mentality of "all for me and fuck you."

 

 

[TheWhiteRabbit]

20 hours ago, Stosh said:

Yeah, Fat chance of that. 

 

Already done in this post with a detailed explanation why.

 

20 hours ago, Stosh said:

Speaking just for myself, While i condone the founding principles of maximum liberty and maximum primacy of individual rights..and thus support the theme of our government ideally.. .. the execution of governance has sucked. 

 

Our citizenry, collectively speaking, lacks the sophistication in political understanding  of Hamilton or Jefferson.

 

Even the most basic terminooogy of political thought, is so ....massaged, that they are used with entirely opposite meanings in books articles and interviews. 

 

The political left is not the polemic opposite of conservatism. The political right is not a trend toward Authoritarianism ,according to definition. 

Beyond those words, folks have sentiments, and if one wants to find reconcilliation then such terms really need to be obviated. IMO

 

 

 

Each political element has it's own set patterns that it operates within.  To define each element would be such an extra effort, that would make a demand too inexcusable.  But, even to do so, moves the operating flow of the conversation towards groups or people rather than tackling the ideas and patterns that the groups operate with.  Unsuccessful people talk about people.  Successful people talk about ideas.  I am more for getting people to address ideas than allowing people to move the talking points to an unsuccessful state where people are allowed to attack political groups, people or individuals. It is just like making personal attacks.  You do not win, you just look mean.  I have a firm belief that there is enough of that kind of thing out there on the net.  Talking about ideas allows it to remain more neutral and mainstream rather than making any one group out to be bad.

 

Let me clarify.  When talk about bad ideas, I may talk about how they originated and how they are used.  It does make anyone bad, it just shows that in the long term they were ineffective.  Would talking about groups, defining them make it any easier to talk about the ideas?  Or would it harden peoples hearts?  Why would we ask who was being attacked when we are attacking ideas instead?  Its not about people, it is about the ideas people come up with, right?

22 hours ago, Stosh said:

What do the words LEFT and CONSERVATIVE mean here? 

 

Left means people who belong to the left leaning ideologies such as democrats, liberals, marxists, communists and social marxists.  The term exists as a placeholder for where the ideas being attacked came from.

Note: I did not use the term political right, because for all intense purposes the political right is dead through stagnant ideas.

Conservatives... I used this term because it is more of a stringent minority that holds to less risk taking.  In some respects their disadvantage is that they are risk adverse.  Meaning that they are less likely to adopt risky behavior like using Economics to boost green technologies.  There are other downsides, but, just like the left is also just as susceptable to corruption.  They each handle things in different ways.  Left leaning politics likes to use government funds.  Conservatives like to use corporate funds to handle a project if they can.  But, the origination of patterns is sometimes important if you address or attack those ideas.  It was never my intention to allow groups to be attacked themselves but to acknowledge ideas and the effects these ideas had so that they can be evaluated.  That is why my posts are carefully worded as such.  When I use conservatives, it is often used to develop a type of contrast also rather than seeking some erroneous form of absolutism.  When I speak of a group, generally there are hardened patterns of behavior that form the center piece of the use of an idea.  Does not shifting the perspective away from ideas to groups devolve the conservation into attacks from the vantage point of those ideologies themselves? Yes.  It does.  Just remember that I will do everything in my power to show it for what it is -if it happens.  That is not a threat, it is a promise.

 

To bring you up to speed.  I killed name-calling propaganda in this post here:

Lets see what happens next...

[TheWhiteRabbit]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Good post.

 

This is all about acknowledging that others may have different opinions than we have.  It isn't defining anyone right or wrong.

 

And we each have the right to hold the opinions we hold as long as we can back them up with reason and logic.

 

But really, after the question has been asked, voices were herd, decisions were made, isn't it time to get back together and work for the betterment of all concerns?

 

This last part is what we are not doing.  No different than what the Palestinians and Israelis.  Demanding concessions before accepting the offer to sit down and talk.  No talks will ever begin if we hold to this mentality.

 

And what's at the root of this?  Respect.  Yes, we must earn respect.  Respect the other's opinions even if we don't agree with them.

 

Where is respect today?  Seems to me we have drifted into a mentality of "all for me and fuck you."

 

 

 

That is where the impasse is, my friend.  But, we still have ideas.  We come up with new ones... spread them.  But the hate... when I speak of hate it is the mere opposition to open expression and free flow of ideas... It is still there.  Because they are not open, they sometimes adapt.  But, we just create new ideas that go under the radar again.  It was never about any group being wrong for me.  It was always about new ideas.  Some people love them and they spread them.

 

Something that is not lost on me, I do thank the psychic who was able to pull me out of melancholy in Michigan, as well as the words of other teachers I have had.  But one thing she said about respect made a large impression on me.  She said respect is a two-way street.  You have to give respect to get respect.

 

That kind of made me realize some things about love as well.  That we actually listen to people is actually a form of love.  It is also a form of respect.  In a way, if we do not listen to people... In a way we are not showing love or respect.  Naturally, this does not mean that we are going to agree with everything a person says.  But, even in my fermented fish sort of way I do respect what people say.  I respect them enough to tell them that if I see something that may not be helpful, I will challenge what they say.

 

No, it really isn't defining anyone for right or wrong because we each have decisions to make, here and now.  Just because someone came up with a bad idea doesn't mean we have to live with letting it define existence.

 

That is probably also why the discussion has been... Slow going?

Maybe some thoughts are way too deeply entrenched to be evaluated?

 

Neither of these things makes people wholly right or wrong.  It is just that what you say and what they have been saying does not make me question my perspective.  It makes me question whether it is right for me to just start nuking ideas in a thread, on any forum... really.  I mean if ideas like these can not be really addressed... Maybe something else has to happen first.

 

The point you made of foreign political bodies is not lost on me.  But, I suggest that such a thing would only anchor it to a concept that could indelibly harden things.  That I can't agree with, though it may be a mistake.

 

Is the concept of attacking bad ideas lost?  Have we done such irreparable damage that we do not have free-thinking human beings?

 

The concept of working toward the betterment of all beings is not lost on me either.  I would like to speed up the process.  But, that does not happen until people start to look at ideas that are bad, ineffectual and start creating new ideas or start thinking about how some ideas could work in their stead.  It does not work for everyone, sadly.  Perhaps, one day I will finish and publish my findings and writings.  Is there a different way to handle the situation?  I am confident inspired minds will prevail, that these ideas will come to be elucidated.

 

@Stosh You also mentioned some things you would like to see.  Lets talk about them and develop working points.

@rene You mentioned that you felt some of the ideas lent themselves towards miscommunication.  I think your feedback is essential.

@Marblehead Doesn't suppression of ideas do worse harm than not allowing facts to be said?  I say it does.  I also know that doing so, will only incur the wrath of people later... As these same people struggle to claim that they "didn't do it".

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by TheWhiteRabbit
Addendum at the end for Marblehead

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, TheWhiteRabbit said:

 

Hi Rabbit.  We aren't really too far apart concerning this subject.  You are on a mission, I'm not.

3 hours ago, TheWhiteRabbit said:

 

@Marblehead Doesn't suppression of ideas do worse harm than not allowing facts to be said?  I say it does.  I also know that doing so, will only incur the wrath of people later... As these same people struggle to claim that they "didn't do it".

 

Yes, we must speak out truths.  That means no suppression of ideas and opinions.  Sure, the truth sometimes hurts.  But we all can heal.

 

But let's not lie.  What are the real (honest) reasons we are doing or saying such and such?

 

Modern humans are about 40,000 years old and we still have so many problems to solve.  Makes us look rather inefficient.

 

[rene]

10 hours ago, TheWhiteRabbit said:

 

@rene You mentioned that you felt some of the ideas lent themselves towards miscommunication.  I think your feedback is essential.

 

Hello rabbit. I need to respectfully  decline your gracious request for my further input. Watching what is happening in Catalonia these last 24 hours has been a turning point for me - from apolitical to anarchist. I am not sure, yet, in what all ways this shift will manifest in my life; I do sense, however, an event similar to Catalonia will occur here in my lifetime. It's time for me to go politically quiet and just watch as things there, and here, unfold. For now.

 

Best of luck with your endeavors,

Warmest regards, Rene

[Marblehead]

Sad about what is happening in Spain and with the Kurds as well.

 

Gotta keep the sheep in the pasture.

 

[rene]

That works, but only up to a point.

 

[Marblehead]

Or at least evolve into Bighorns.

 

[rene]

[TheWhiteRabbit]

18 hours ago, Marblehead said:

 

Hi Rabbit.  We aren't really too far apart concerning this subject.  You are on a mission, I'm not.

Yes, we must speak out truths.  That means no suppression of ideas and opinions.  Sure, the truth sometimes hurts.  But we all can heal.

 

But let's not lie.  What are the real (honest) reasons we are doing or saying such and such?

 

Modern humans are about 40,000 years old and we still have so many problems to solve.  Makes us look rather inefficient.

 

 

What is there to lie about?  We have seen the theatrics... That was meaningless but to develop how theatrics develop positions. 

 

There real point is that things have become too hardened and that because of deeply entrenched ideas.  I did not really care about destroying the rights of groups or individuals.  I suggest that BECAUSE the sentiment and ideas are way too juvenile that they still think that this is the reason why.  The real reason is that they leave me with no choice regarding the real reason, that being that people SHOULD be allowed free speech for the sake of new ideas and the future.  If that cannot happen, then just like I realized years ago... I actually meditated long and hard on this... The only choice I have is to be a liberal again.  Because, there is one ideology and no one is willing to see different ideas.  So, it is a sad day.  Because people are too wrapped up in their own lies to allow new things to flourish.  Furthermore, family I have uses these same suppressive tactics.  I don't have any more choices anymore.  Without any support I can't continue because it has been years of trying.  I am tired of just going things alone and trying to use theatrics to get people to listen.  I have been alone for just too long.

 

I have no more reasons anymore to post and the mission dies with me.  People want to talk about harm.  Well, it has harmed my life and that is completely it.  Thank you to all who made it possible.  But, I wont allow it to affect the forum, Goodbye forever.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by TheWhiteRabbit

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, TheWhiteRabbit said:

 

What is there to lie about?  We have seen the theatrics... That was meaningless but to develop how theatrics develop positions. 

 

There real point is that things have become too hardened and that because of deeply entrenched ideas.  I did not really care about destroying the rights of groups or individuals.  I suggest that BECAUSE the sentiment and ideas are way too juvenile that they still think that this is the reason why.  The real reason is that they leave me with no choice regarding the real reason, that being that people SHOULD be allowed free speech for the sake of new ideas and the future.  If that cannot happen, then just like I realized years ago... I actually meditated long and hard on this... The only choice I have is to be a liberal again.  Because, there is one ideology and no one is willing to see different ideas.  So, it is a sad day.  Because people are too wrapped up in their own lies to allow new things to flourish.  Furthermore, family I have uses these same suppressive tactics.  I don't have any more choices anymore.  Without any support I can't continue because it has been years of trying.  I am tired of just going things alone and trying to use theatrics to get people to listen.  I have been alone for just too long.

 

I have no more reasons anymore to post and the mission dies with me.  People want to talk about harm.  Well, it has harmed my life and that is completely it.  Thank you to all who made it possible.  But, I wont allow it to affect the forum, Goodbye forever.

 

 

Hi Rabbit.  I hope you aren't leaving us.  I have enjoyed our discussions.

 

You are correct.  We cannot change other people who already have fixed understandings and refuse to consider alternative perspectives.

 

Freedom of speech is fine as long as it is not done in front of a captive audience who gathered, not for what you have to say, but for some other reason.  The listener must also have freedom of speech and the freedom to voice their opinions and understandings.

 

I hope you hang around so that after we get done talking about other people we can talk about how we, the individual, can attain peace and contentment.

 

[TheWhiteRabbit]

On 10/2/2017 at 5:12 AM, Marblehead said:

Hi Rabbit.  I hope you aren't leaving us.  I have enjoyed our discussions.

 

You are correct.  We cannot change other people who already have fixed understandings and refuse to consider alternative perspectives.

 

Freedom of speech is fine as long as it is not done in front of a captive audience who gathered, not for what you have to say, but for some other reason.  The listener must also have freedom of speech and the freedom to voice their opinions and understandings.

 

I hope you hang around so that after we get done talking about other people we can talk about how we, the individual, can attain peace and contentment.

 

 

I am all for people's personal opinions.  Maybe someday when fear doesn't get the best of people they can talk about ideas.  Instead of feeling like they have to take a manipulative position.  But, my attempt to talk about ideas is over because people can not talk about ideas.

 

Peace and contentment exists within,  as ideas go, as long as these are too caught up in talking about people or groups they wont be in the now so that they can talk about ideas.  There in lies the rub.  Higher development always has a specific set of prerequisite patterns of behavior.  It is not that I am here to force things on people, but to show now what is lost by decisions we make that affect others.  The shift has it's own set of implications.  So, we will see now what happens when ideas go unchallenged.

 

I do appreciate our conversations and dialogue much.  After I have meditated on the needed changes I need to make to being about my personal shift, I may look forward to future dialogue on the forum.  But, there is a chance too that I may possibly just give up entirely.  Spending several years working on something to make the world more successful was a large personal undertaking and happened due to great personal cost.

 

The fact that some are only living out their own personal fantasies of Les Miserables on the forum is still not lost on me either.  The world is not some fantasy play from a book.  It does not show a spiritual view, Daoism being a spiritual view, and peace and stillness being a major component.  But, humans have paradoxes and trivialities they each have a part in evaluating themselves.  For me, I cannot shift back to the faulty concept of talking about people because it is ineffective, unsuccessful.  So, any future discussions will most likely still be from the perspective of ideas.  It will take some time to integrate all of it.  But, ideas will go unchallenged instead.  That is the end result of this.  If people feel that they want to challenge ideas... I will remind them at every turn that that is what they wanted.

 

Age and experience dictates how we see things.  So, if I stay you will see me posting.  If you don't see it well, it is a function of the end results of things.  I would like to, but like I have said in another post, the lack of support on all terms has been negligible.  So, if people are undervalued, they have a right to say that they do not need to be treated that way.

 

So, I am a meritocrat... Instead of eschewing a whole group of ideas.  Ill just crystallize them. Whats next?

Edited October 4, 2017 by TheWhiteRabbit
addendum