Irresponsible, Unrefined, Insulting Post

[C T]

8 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Would you like for me to insult you?  That way you can forget about the old insult and concentrate on mine?  But then, I would have to lie in order to do it.

 

You might want to put that question to the person whom I reported. 

 

Its an odd question anyhow, but thanks for asking. 

[rene]

25 minutes ago, C T said:

Thank you for the refreshing kick up the behind, rene... 

 

Can't believe I actually missed it. wow

 

Please accept my apologies, Admin & co., esp Michael. 

 

 

lol, most welcome!

 

Personally, I like the wuwei approach on the personal battle shit. Whenever I'm thumped on in here - it gives me the opportunity to go re-read my posts...to see where (or if) I left a target in my words. Clear mis-reads happen, easy to fix or move past.

 

But when the representatives of big opposing ideas butt heads, (like old Buddhism & new syncretic LU) and the words move from 'Your ideas are wrong' to 'You are an idiot for believing that' - well - both sides are showing all the rest of us how useful or effective one's beliefs/practices are... if one is so easily drawn into the fray.

 

That's one benefit of having no fixed path (WuDao) to defend :-D

 

Easy enough to wish everyone well on their finding what works for them!

 

warm greetings (-:

[ralis]

21 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, but then, you are looking for idealism.  Such a thing has never existed.  People have their reasons, justifiable or not.

 

The English still don't like the French and the French still don't like the Germans.

 

 

 

I went back an reread the rules, civility is the underlying rule and there is nothing civil about racism, anti-Semitism and so forth.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

On 9/29/2017 at 7:58 PM, ralis said:

 

Join the club. It seems that anything goes here anymore and any abusive speech is acceptable in that all sides must be heard to the point of ad nauseam. Then healing will supposedly take place. Obviously, that never happens.

 

6 hours ago, C T said:

Dear Admin & team... 

 

Can someone please acknowledge what exactly is going on with the report that I made pertaining to whats been highlighted here? Surely by now some movement have occurred. Even if 'no action necessary' was concluded, which won't be too surprising, at least have the courtesy to remain efficiently informative instead of keeping mum. 

 

Like i said, the longer you guys keep quiet, the more speculations will surface. Why must the apparent silence be a contributing factor to such an unhelpful thing? 

 

To respond to the first, I sent this a while back to someone explaining our situation as Mods:

 

Quote

As moderators we actually have severe restrictions on when and for what reasons we can interfere with the free flow of conversation on the Dao Bums. These are outlined in a public post on Forum Rules and Use here:

 

TheDaoBums' Three Foundations: Eclectic, Egalitarian, Civil.

 

To quote from this document:

 

Quote

TDBs' Conversational Context:
1. At TDBs member participation in conversation is non-hierarchical.  Meaning, members have equal ability to talk regardless of level of knowledge, achievement, or status / credentials of any kind.  TDBs has an underlying ethic of valuing the communication of each person.

2. TDBs most basic rules about conversation are around civility (leaving enough flexibility for lively debate).  A moderator's basic role is to moderate members' uncivility toward each other in coversation.  Members support this process by 'reporting' offending posts.

A fictional example of how 1&2 shake out:
If there's a TDBs debate about music between Mozart vs a beginning piano player, and it becomes heated enough that reports are generated for moderator consideration then, still, "level of knowledge, achievement, or status" are not basis for moderation.  Civility is, applied equally to each member.

It's up to each member, not moderators, to sort out the truth (and other questions of quality) for themselves in conversation.  Moderators just keep the conversation civil within reasonable limits.  For issues of staff bias, members can contact the current admin.

 
Since there is bold text in the original, I have underlined the text which I thought needed emphasis. Basically in our official capacity as moderators we cannot take sides in any of the disagreements on the board, no matter what our personal opinions are, and in point of fact members are free to report what they consider bias on our behalf, to the “current admin”, which would get us in trouble. We are only allowed to intervene on matters of “breeches of the Civil peace”, and even then in a board like Dao Bums with an international membership which includes many different social groups with different ideas about what is and is not “civil” and changes in and respect for “common usage”, we are not free to impose our own values and notions of “civility” on the board, but must weigh the actual severity of an “insult” within the context of a multicultural milieu, which is not as easy in practice, as it is to describe in print.  Strange as it may seem, we can only intervene in cases of racism, sexism, religious bigotry and other such matters, when the situation becomes so egregious and flagrant as to cross the often hard to determine line, into defacto insult.
(Underline added to the above paragraph, ZYD)

 

I hope that the above makes clear our own duties and position within the Dao Bums . . .

 

After the debacle of the U.S. election, which was a very stressful period for us, we created the "Off Grid" sub Forum to deal with controversial issues with directly or indirectly involve matters as "racism, sexism, religious bigotry" and for those that go over a certain line, there is always "the Pit".  The reason for this was to prevent The Dao Bums from becoming a public platform for such things, and to avoid attracting people to The Dao Bums to promote such ideas, while providing a private space for Dao Bums to discuss such things.  I personally don't expect "healing", but that doesn't matter, healing is not our job, furthering free discussion is.

 

As for promoting civility, regrettably this is not a Confucian forum, but a "Taoist" one, so people feel free to spontaneously express themselves, because that's what "Taoism" is all about.

 

As far as communicating with people about their complaints, to my knowledge there is no set policy on this, but we do spend a lot of time discussing these complaints, debating actions and then filing the reports with an account of what action was taken and why, all on our own volunteered time.  At this time there are only three mods and one admin, and we are about to lose one mod, as was announced here:

 

On 9/16/2017 at 4:12 PM, dawei said:

STAFF REQUEST

 

THelerner has been on his second tour of duty as Staff and I purposely asked him to do this second around.  He has contributed in the way I had hoped; an old school guy of TDB who has kept step with the evolution of the forum and exemplifies to other staff how he balances that.  

 

Staffing is not for everyone.  It takes a certain amount of suppression and detachment with an understanding of what matters for the board and its members.   Rarely does someone come on as a perfect candidate, and why I say to staff that being a moderator is a form of cultivation; you learn a lot about yourself

 

In that vein, which is not meant to scare anyone off but I hope it would also serve as a useful challenge to request for someone to volunteer their time as staff. 

 

I still would really like a TDB lady or two to consider, but will take any volunteers and I will be in touch if we think that would work out.

 

Thanks in advance for any consideration

 

and so far there is no throng lining up to fill that position.

 

Everyone wants to complain to the Mods.  No one wants to assume responsibility for receiving such complaints, much less acting upon them and then defending their actions or lack of action to Dao Bums members.

 

Zhongyongdaoist

 

 

 

 

Edit: This was accidentally posted prematurely, and I hid it to finish editing it, in the meantime several posts have appeared after this.

[rene]

9 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

I went back an reread the rules, civility is the underlying rule and there is nothing civil about racism, anti-Semitism and so forth.

 

Agree. All the more reason for everyone to put extra effort in choosing words.

 

With open and genuine heart - the possibility to find peaceful resolutions, or meaningful dialogue, is more likely. Without it - one just as well stay in Off-grid and spew.

[thelerner]

2 hours ago, C T said:

Thank you for the refreshing kick up the behind, rene... 

..

Please accept my apologies, Admin & co., esp Michael. 

 

Nothing to apologize for. 

At times, we all howl at the moon.

giving various parties and the universe

the finger.  It's good for the soul.

 

We're not saints and internet does not make for the clearest and polite setting for discussion.  Far from it, without inflection and faces we lose all kinds of meaning.  I get the feeling, most of the time, if the two parties were together at a coffee shop or over a beer, the conversations would be much more civil and some common ground and respected disagreement reached sooner but the anonymity of the net, and the habit of focusing arguments, sometimes unaware on vastly different aspects, means misunderstandings and heat and anger where it shouldn't exist.

 

Worse, we're also playing to an unseen crowd, so the ego steps in, demanding a win, so we get personal way to fast. 

 

Lastly, like Ralis, there are times I am outraged at the racism, subtle and overt that goes on here.  It's mostly in the Hundun and the political threads, both are given more leeway.  Yet that's my 'perception', to others its their honest uncensored opinion.  There's a murky ground between and there times people get away with it, times I'm too sensitive, and others when they've gotten suspensions and even bans.    The mods strive for a balance, which inevitably leaves people on either side unhappy. 

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, ralis said:

 

I went back an reread the rules, civility is the underlying rule and there is nothing civil about racism, anti-Semitism and so forth.

That depends a lot on one's perspective, doesn't it?

 

And defining "civility" would be another question.  Are we talking or just shooting arrows at each other?

 

[Nungali]

On ‎30‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 8:35 AM, thelerner said:

I've reported myself. 

Though now that I'm a moderator I realize reports are a pain.  Particularly 'he said, she said' types where both parties end up insulting each other. 

 

The mods have discussed it, the thread being referred to has gotten more then one report.  To me its a case of good intentions on both sides being argued, then getting ugly.  Not an unusual case when someone presents a practice another finds dangerous.  Yet, after a warning and explanation, it's probably best to let it go.  Assume people will be responsible, and not get into circuitous arguments. 

 

In the end we've been mostly wu wei on this, hoping the responsible parties, who have earned our respect for there views and writings in the past, will sort it out themselves, even if its just stating one's truth and walking away. 

 

 

Hey ref !  The other guy just poked me in the eye  !

 

Ref :   'Ohh  best to klet it go and just get on with things . "

 

And Mods ask us NOT to escalate and report instead .   One reading this might think ;  " Well, what's the use of that then ? "

 

-  also one needs to take that post in context of the ongoing conversation it was used in .

[ralis]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Hey ref !  The other guy just poked me in the eye  !

 

Ref :   'Ohh  best to klet it go and just get on with things . "

 

And Mods ask us NOT to escalate and report instead .   One reading this might think ;  " Well, what's the use of that then ? "

 

-  also one needs to take that post in context of the ongoing conversation it was used in .

 

Exactly! Actually, I know what is happening here. I will not further elaborate on that.

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, C T said:

Dear Admin & team... 

 

Can someone please acknowledge what exactly is going on with the report that I made pertaining to whats been highlighted here? Surely by now some movement have occurred. Even if 'no action necessary' was concluded, which won't be too surprising, at least have the courtesy to remain efficiently informative instead of keeping mum. 

 

Like i said, the longer you guys keep quiet, the more speculations will surface. Why must the apparent silence be a contributing factor to such an unhelpful thing?  

 

 

You report  complaining  about the Police Internal Integrity Commission has been received by the Police Internal Integrity Commission and will be processed as soon as we have available time and staff . .....

 

 

 

[rene]

6 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

As for promoting civility, regrettably this is not a Confucian forum, but a "Taoist" one, so people feel free to spontaneously express themselves, because that's what "Taoism" is all about.

 

Regrettably ???

Grrrrrrr....👹

LOL 🦋

[Nungali]

On ‎30‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 8:11 AM, Marblehead said:

I once reported myself for being an ass.

 

You wouldn't believe how many "Thank You"s I got.

 

 

Hey , wait a minute  .....       how do you get 'likes'  for   making a report , on yourself or others ?   Who would know ?

 

Or are you saying people liked you for boasting about reporting yourself   later   ?       

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Hey , wait a minute  .....       how do you get 'likes'  for   making a report , on yourself or others ?   Who would know ?

 

Or are you saying people liked you for boasting about reporting yourself   later   ?       

It's complicated.  Believe me.

 

But I wasn't boasting.  Making an ass of myself was public so I had to make sure the apology was public as well.

 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, ralis said:

 

I have reported racism, anti-Semitism, misogyny and personal attacks to the mods. Was any action taken? No. I was told that all must have their say. If I remember correctly, the rules forbid such talk.

 

Yep I copped that  ... no modding whatsoever ... so I gave some back  ... then I got modded     and they tried their new 'points system ' out on me .

 

Really guys  .... really ?   

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Would you like for me to insult you?  That way you can forget about the old insult and concentrate on mine?  But then, I would have to lie in order to do it.

 

 

 

Its about a lot more than a petty insult .... it was the whole undercurrent going on in that thread  and who was concerned and how they responded,  and how it was  'diffused'     .... not   ....     but let's pretend it was diffused  and just move ahead , eh ?

 

Things like that carry over if not diffused properly , take Ralis' comments for example .

 

Such issues are usually more than what is on the surface .

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, but then, you are looking for idealism.  Such a thing has never existed.  People have their reasons, justifiable or not.

 

The English still don't like the French and the French still don't like the Germans.

 

 

 

That's nationalism not racism .

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Its about a lot more than a petty insult .... it was the whole undercurrent going on in that thread  and who was concerned and how they responded,  and how it was  'diffused'     .... not   ....     but let's pretend it was diffused  and just move ahead , eh ?

 

Things like that carry over if not diffused properly , take Ralis' comments for example .

 

Such issues are usually more than what is on the surface .

Did you notice that I was very careful to not take side or place blame?

 

 

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

That's nationalism not racism .

Don't get me started.

 

[Nungali]

38 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Exactly! Actually, I know what is happening here. I will not further elaborate on that.

 

Ditto  .... agreed .

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Don't get me started.

 

 

 

< wind  up  ....     wind   wind   wind    and   ......   >

 

 

[Marblehead]

I like the bunny better.  She has a pretty tail.

 

[thelerner]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

Hey ref !  The other guy just poked me in the eye  !

 

Ref :   'Ohh  best to klet it go and just get on with things . "

 

And Mods ask us NOT to escalate and report instead .   One reading this might think ;  " Well, what's the use of that then ? "

 

-  also one needs to take that post in context of the ongoing conversation it was used in .

Ah, the old 'he poked me' gambit.  No he didn't, he disagreed with you and it got emotional and angry.  Well listen up- We're not your mother.  Here's the solution.  Suck it up.  Gain a little maturity.  Maybe walk away, maybe de-escalate by taking the high road and remaining calm, maybe ignore the whole stupid thread for a while. 

 

In general those who are really crazy and angry get banned.  The rest of you, Mature.  Be polite or state your peace and walk away.  Or engage in debate, civilly.  Don't get personal or takes things personally.  No one wins internet battles because most often the other side isn't even reading your long researched well thought out posts.  They just want to piss you off.  Realize that and win by leaving the table.  

[Apech]

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

Ah, the old 'he poked me' gambit.  No he didn't, he disagreed with you and it got emotional and angry.  Well listen up- We're not your mother.  Here's the solution.  Suck it up.  Gain a little maturity.  Maybe walk away, maybe de-escalate by taking the high road and remaining calm, maybe ignore the whole stupid thread for a while. 

 

In general those who are really crazy and angry get banned.  The rest of you, Mature.  Be polite or state your peace and walk away.  Or engage in debate, civilly.  Don't get personal or takes things personally.  No one wins internet battles because most often the other side isn't even reading your long researched well thought out posts.  They just want to piss you off.  Realize that and win by leaving the table.  

 

 

Perfect!  if I may say so.

 

But does not apply to OP.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Apech

[C T]

It'd have been a non-issue if the root topic which caused the problem was redirected out of General Discussion when it first appeared, for example, the ppd section would have been the ideal spot to hang the buntings and pop the crackers. Mods would not have to mother anything then.

 

Even as the course of the thread began to show signs of conflict, it was permitted to stay where it was, and some quarter might want to share some of the responsibility for the seeming escalation instead of the mere highlighting of how members ought to conduct themselves better in such situations. 

 

Where grounds are appropriately tended, the question of weeds does not arise. 

[Marblehead]

7 hours ago, thelerner said:

Ah, the old 'he poked me' gambit.  No he didn't, he disagreed with you and it got emotional and angry.  Well listen up- We're not your mother.  Here's the solution.  Suck it up.  Gain a little maturity.  Maybe walk away, maybe de-escalate by taking the high road and remaining calm, maybe ignore the whole stupid thread for a while. 

 

In general those who are really crazy and angry get banned.  The rest of you, Mature.  Be polite or state your peace and walk away.  Or engage in debate, civilly.  Don't get personal or takes things personally.  No one wins internet battles because most often the other side isn't even reading your long researched well thought out posts.  They just want to piss you off.  Realize that and win by leaving the table.  

You are such a pacifist!