Lost in Translation Posted September 30, 2017 THE USELESS Hui Tzu said to Chaung Tzu: “All your teaching is centered on what has no use.” Chang replied: “If you have no appreciation for what has no use You cannot begin to talk about what can be used. The earth, for example, is broad and vast But of all this expanse a man uses only a few inches Upon which he happens to be standing. Now suppose you suddenly take away All that he is not actually using So that, all around his feet a gulf Yawns, and he stands in the Void, With nowhere solid except right under each foot: How long will he be able to use what he is using?” Hui Tzu said: “It would cease to serve any purpose.” Chuan Tzu concluded: “This shows The absolute necessity Of what has ‘no use.’” Thomas Merton The Way of Chuang Tzu, p. 153 1965 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 30, 2017 It took me longer than it should have to appreciate that concept. Since, useful/useless has become an important concept for me. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morning dew Posted September 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, Marblehead said: It took me longer than it should have to appreciate that concept. Since, useful/useless has become an important concept for me. Is useless here talking about space to allow room for change? Or is it talking about a 'Zen' kind of thing where you empty the mind so you can actually grasp the present without overlaying past experience or expectations onto it? Or something else I haven't grasped? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 30, 2017 For me, all the above plus more. What is useless for me may be useful for another. Just because something is useless in the "now" moment doesn't mean that it is always useless. Actually, for me, the concept of useless/useful much of my dualistic thinking I used to do. And remember, in most cases the useless tree is the one that lives the longest. And with people, if we are useless for others to use, our energy will be available for our self. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morning dew Posted September 30, 2017 Ah, yes, I think I got it now. He's saying nothing is objectively useless or useful; it's all relative. I like the other points as well, especially the last one. Good old ZZ. He always seems to pack so much in his little stories. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 30, 2017 Yes, most of the thoughts I have on that concept are from Chuang Tzu with a little push from Rene. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted September 30, 2017 Always glad to help! Let me know when you see the cliff. :-D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 30, 2017 16 minutes ago, rene said: Always glad to help! Let me know when you see the cliff. :-D No warnings from me. But I will grab the strawberry on the way down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted September 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, Marblehead said: No warnings from me. But I will grab the strawberry on the way down. Yeahhhh! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted October 1, 2017 5 hours ago, morning dew said: Ah, yes, I think I got it now. He's saying nothing is objectively useless or useful; it's all relative. I like the other points as well, especially the last one. Good old ZZ. He always seems to pack so much in his little stories. I actually think he's saying that nothing is useless. Useless is a void concept. We create 'useless' so that we may be 'useful'. Of course I may be overthinking this... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted October 1, 2017 I would think the smart thing to do would be to throw the berry to the mice ,and wait out the tigers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 1, 2017 6 hours ago, Stosh said: I would think the smart thing to do would be to throw the berry to the mice ,and wait out the tigers. Wouldn't work. The mice really don't like you and they are out to see your demise. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted October 1, 2017 13 hours ago, Marblehead said: What is useless for me may be useful for another. Hi Dada-da, But of course. However not only that ... With respect to yourself - what is useful today may be useless tomorrow ... Also what is useless to you today may be useful tomorrow ... Why are you like that when it comes to useful/useless? Perhaps this is the answer ... Give you nothing ... And nothing is useful/useless. 13 hours ago, Marblehead said: Just because something is useless in the "now" moment doesn't mean that it is always useless. There you are - hope you realize so in relation to yourself. Don't talk so much - it is useless. Take stock of yourself - is your life 'useful or useless'? Are you useful 'now' and 'then' useless => useless 'now' and 'then' useful => ... Please go back to the quarry - there you are neither useful or useless. 14 hours ago, Marblehead said: Actually, for me, the concept of useless/useful much of my dualistic thinking I used to do. Why 'used to do'? Now what do you do? You are not 'dualistic'? As a stone is a stone, it is not otherwise. Are you now at peace? Or are you waiting to be blasted/blessed to pieces? If that is the case, then you are useless as 'one piece' but useful as 'many pieces'? May peace be with - now and then => then and now => ... 14 hours ago, Marblehead said: And remember, in most cases the useless tree is the one that lives the longest. Who say? All trees have roots - they help in soil erosion. Peoplq have no roots - so when they grow old they ... Kindly complete the sentence. 14 hours ago, Marblehead said: And with people, if we are useless for others to use, our energy will be available for our self You are referring to yourself? Why do you let others use you? Why are you useless to others? ... Is it because you are concretely ...? 'Available for our self' - you are selfishly useless. 13 hours ago, Marblehead said: Most of the thoughts I have on that concept are from Chuang Tzu with a little push from Rene. Chuang Tzu? If you say so. rene? Why do you let him push you? You pull yourself together OK? 12 hours ago, rene said: Always glad to help! Let me know when you see the cliff. :-D Hi rene, By helping Marblehead you are rendering him useless. Is he so useless that he needs to be pushed by you? Why a wheelbarrow? Easy disposal of the useless at the cliff? Your ':-D' is sadistic. No mercy for the useless - frightening. 13 hours ago, Marblehead said: No warnings from me. But I will grab the strawberry on the way down. Enjoy your strawberry down the cliff. Don't ever climb up. 13 hours ago, rene said: Yeahhhh! I have said it - you sadistic. 10 hours ago, Lost in Translation said: I actually think he's saying that nothing is useless. Useless is a void concept. We create 'useless' so that we may be 'useful'. Hi Lost in Translation, morning dew is ephemeral. He disappears when the sun is up. He is yin. So how can you say "he's saying". Come on - you are translating 'yin' when he is 'yang'. 'Nothing is useless' - yes. 'Useless is a Void concept' - yes. "We create 'useless' so that we may be 'useful'" - no. Both are created simultaneously. 11 hours ago, Lost in Translation said: Of course I may be overthinking this... But of course. 10 hours ago, Stosh said: I would think the smart thing to do would be to throw the berry to the mice ,and wait out the tigers. Hi Stosh, When Marblehead is falling down the cliff ... Not so 'smart' of you to ... 4 hours ago, Marblehead said: Wouldn't work. The mice really don't like you and they are out to see your demise. Why are you so (c)rude to Stosh - when you are on the way down? It is rene you should ... Rest in piece(s). - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, Limahong said: Hi Dada-da, Rene is a "her" not a "him". When one pushes gently and appropriately it is just like walking arm in arm with someone. Useless/useful might not be a good concept for you. You think too much. Stick with your dualities. Yes, I am content and therefore at peace with my inner self. Anyhow, always remember, first push then pull. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 1, 2017 Oh, BTW, Stosh and I go way back. We enjoy pestering each other now and then. Keeps us in the realm of reality. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morning dew Posted October 1, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Lost in Translation said: I actually think he's saying that nothing is useless. Useless is a void concept. We create 'useless' so that we may be 'useful'. Of course I may be overthinking this... Maybe there's a way to reconcile our two views? From a (giant) bird's eye perspective nothing is useless, everything can be useful to somebody. However, from a particular individual's perspective not everything is going to be useless as there is no objective standard of 'useless' and 'useful' for any one person – it's all relative to the individual and varies from individual to individual. Either that, or I'm still floundering around in ignorance. Edited October 1, 2017 by morning dew 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted October 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, morning dew said: Maybe there's a way to reconcile our two views? From a (giant) bird's eye perspective nothing is useless, everything can be useful to somebody. AND from a particular individual's perspective not everything is going to be useless as there is no objective standard of 'useless' and 'useful' for any one person – it's all relative to the individual and varies from individual to individual. Either that, or I'm still floundering around in ignorance. Not ignorance! You described 'Both, same time'. See where I changed your post? Easy as that. (-: 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morning dew Posted October 1, 2017 14 minutes ago, rene said: Not ignorance! You described 'Both, same time'. See where I changed your post? Easy as that. (-: Yeah, that's it exactly. I meant both at the same time. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted October 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Limahong said: .... Chuang Tzu? If you say so. rene? Why do you let him push you? You pull yourself together OK? Hi rene, By helping Marblehead you are rendering him useless. Is he so useless that he needs to be pushed by you? Why a wheelbarrow? Easy disposal of the useless at the cliff? Your ':-D' is sadistic. No mercy for the useless - frightening. Enjoy your strawberry down the cliff. Don't ever climb up. I have said it - you sadistic. Marblehead Why are you so (c)rude to Stosh - when you are on the way down? It is rene you should ... Rest in piece(s). - LimA LOLOL LimA you are right! I am sadistic! AND my words are Useless! Just ask anyone! Now, if you will excuse me, I need to hurry off and pull more wings off butterflys as they are even more useless than Marblehead! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted October 1, 2017 1 hour ago, rene said: LOLOL LimA you are right! Hi rene, No. I was wrong. Why? 2 hours ago, Marblehead said: Rene is a "her" not a "him". My apology ... - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted October 1, 2017 1 minute ago, Limahong said: Hi rene, No. I was wrong. Why? My apology ... - LimA Mistaking genders of nicks is trivial; hmmm... maybe better you apologize for thinking a female can't be sadistic, if that is the real basis for your post. If not, my error. No harm, no foul. (-: "Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among her books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to her they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger." ~ Gordon R. Dickson, Tactics of Mistake 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lost in Translation Posted October 1, 2017 3 hours ago, Limahong said: As a stone is a stone, it is not otherwise. Are you now at peace? Or are you waiting to be blasted/blessed to pieces? If that is the case, then you are useless as 'one piece' but useful as 'many pieces'? LOL. I love you, man. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted October 1, 2017 3 hours ago, rene said: Mistaking genders of nicks is trivial Hi rene, Not trivial but critical. Cannot imagine myself kissing a woman and have nicks on my lips. 3 hours ago, rene said: ... maybe better you apologize for thinking a female can't be sadistic, Femininity is love, honey and wisdom. Masculinity is sadism plus masochism. Apology to the fair, sweet and beautiful. Bloody hell to rogues - not at all useful. 3 hours ago, rene said: ... if that is the real basis for your post. The basis of my post is - 'The useless'. Now I realize my mistake. What? How can I get involve with things - Lost in Translation? Next time I will tell him to get lost and go to hell. Bloody hell to ... 3 hours ago, rene said: No harm, no foul. I like harm made of meat from fouwl. You also - my 2nd sweet lady? (1st sweet lady = Kar3n) - LimA 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted October 1, 2017 21 minutes ago, Limahong said: Hi rene, Not trivial but critical. Cannot imagine myself kissing a woman and have nicks on my lips. Femininity is love, honey and wisdom. Masculinity is sadism plus masochism. Apology to the fair, sweet and beautiful. Bloody hell to rogues - not at all useful. The basis of my post is - 'The useless'. Now I realize my mistake. What? How can I get involve with things - Lost in Translation? Next time I will tell him to get lost and go to hell. Bloody hell to ... I like harm made of meat from fouwl. You also - my 2nd sweet lady? (1st sweet lady = Kar3n) - LimA No, LimA, I am not your sweet lady. Please direct your attention elsewhere. Thank you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted October 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, rene said: No, LimA, I am not your sweet lady. 2nd apology ... - LimA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
