"My kingdom is not of this world"

[3bob]

 

The saying, "My kingdom is not of this world" is given in a seemingly straight-forward bible context...yet to me the saying is rife with possible connotations along with both agreement and contradiction to other well known spiritual sayings!

 

For instance the Taoist teachings do not say or imply to me such a separation as Jesus (a golden immortal) is apparently making.   The Tao does not exclude the ten-thousand from itself by saying such is not of what could be termed "the kingdom of Tao",  (if you will or the manifest) which is different from being lost in attachment  to or stuck in identification with some particular part of the "ten thousand". 

Other comments ? 

[rainbowvein]

Some ten thousand creations may exist, but there is a spiritual kingdom beyond the ONE that very few will experience in their lifetime. This is to what Jesus was referring. 

 

Jesus doesn't mean that there is a separation. He's just reporting the truth from his own experience.

[Jeff]

28 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

The saying, "My kingdom is not of this world" is given in a seemingly straight-forward bible context...yet to me the saying is rife with possible connotations along with both agreement and contradiction to other well known spiritual sayings!

 

For instance the Taoist teachings do not say or imply to me such a separation as Jesus (a golden immortal) is apparently making.   The Tao does not exclude the ten-thousand from itself by saying such is not of what could be termed "the kingdom of Tao",  (if you will or the manifest) which is different from being lost in attachment  to or stuck in identification with some particular part of the "ten thousand". 

Other comments ? 

 

I think he is pretty much saying the exact same thing as Lao Zi. Take a look below from the Tao Te Ching, and I think you will see that he is not talking about “this world” either when residing with the Tao...

 

chapter 14

 

Look, it cannot be seen—it is beyond form.

Listen, it cannot be heard—it is beyond sound.

Grasp, it cannot be held—it is intangible.

These three are indefinable; Therefore they are joined in one.

From above it is not bright; From below it is not dark:

An unbroken thread beyond description.

It returns to nothingness. The form of the formless,

The image of the imageless, It is called indefinable and beyond imagination.

Stand before it and there is no beginning.

Follow it and there is no end.

Stay with the ancient Tao, Move with the present.

Knowing the ancient beginning is the essence of Tao.

[Lost in Translation]

Keep in mind that Jesus is talking to the real, flesh and blood, people of that era. He uses words and concepts that they can understand. We, in 2017, may be metaphysically included in his audience, but his actual audience were the semi-literate and highly provincial people in that specific part of Jerusalem and environs circa 27-33 AD.

[rene]

9 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Keep in mind that Jesus is talking to the real, flesh and blood, people of that era. He uses words and concepts that they can understand. We, in 2017, may be metaphysically included in his audience, but his actual audience were the semi-literate and highly provincial people in that specific part of Jerusalem and environs circa 27-33 AD.

Agree, and the same idea can (and should, imo) be applied to translations/interpretations of The Laozi.

 

Kindly excuse the tangent, 3bob 🦋

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

The saying, "My kingdom is not of this world" is given in a seemingly straight-forward bible context...yet to me the saying is rife with possible connotations along with both agreement and contradiction to other well known spiritual sayings!

 

For instance the Taoist teachings do not say or imply to me such a separation as Jesus (a golden immortal) is apparently making.   The Tao does not exclude the ten-thousand from itself by saying such is not of what could be termed "the kingdom of Tao",  (if you will or the manifest) which is different from being lost in attachment  to or stuck in identification with some particular part of the "ten thousand". 

Other comments ? 

 

The saying relates to a gnostic viewpoint that our home and origin is in the 'afterlife' . This life is a fall, a mistake, an illusion,  something low and dirty and material, it isn't our true home .

 

My view is the ' contradiction' ,  the opposite   ..... but then again I have had a good life, and a positive attitude about it .

 

That's why we have two opposing 'spiritual sayings' on the subject - 2 different schools of thought on it ;  the 'black school' which denies life and feels 'trapped' by   it and the 'white school' which embraces life  and celebrates it .

 

On this level Daoism seems more like  native and aboriginal  spirituality , those systems that were or remained unaffected by the arrival of  dualistic Gnosticism .

Edited October 1, 2017 by Nungali

[3bob]

Thanks folks for some reflective considerations...and which I think can and should be continued in several ways!

 

Another quote from the TTC which to me contradicts the op quote in certain ways or has certain implications:

Chap. 25

"...Man follows the ways of the Earth

The Earth follows the ways of Heaven,

Heaven follows the ways of Tao,

Tao follows its own ways."

Thus there is no separation in "the kingdom of Tao" so to speak...as is no cut-off point, dismissal or demeaning parts of that "kingdom".

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by 3bob

[3bob]

2 hours ago, rainbowvein said:

Some ten thousand creations may exist, but there is a spiritual kingdom beyond the ONE that very few will experience in their lifetime. This is to what Jesus was referring. 

 

Jesus doesn't mean that there is a separation. He's just reporting the truth from his own experience.

 

well some of those terms are or could be problematic in definition...for instance, "a spiritual kingdom beyond the one that very few experience".  well if one thinks of energy and so called matter there is no beyond to either since they are the same thing vibrating at different rates and also relative to the observer and their rate of vibration if any difference is going to be held, even if it can't ultimately be held.

[rainbowvein]

We all have differing views and differing experience. This makes it very difficult to discuss spirituality.  

[Jeff]

32 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

well some of those terms are or could be problematic in definition...for instance, "a spiritual kingdom beyond the one that very few experience".  well if one thinks of energy and so called matter there is no beyond to either since they are the same thing vibrating at different rates and also relative to the observer and their rate of vibration if any difference is going to be held, even if it can't ultimately be held.

 

Maybe these words of Jesus will help with the point regarding the Kingdom and where it is found...

 

Luke 17: 20-21

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

[3bob]

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

I think he is pretty much saying the exact same thing as Lao Zi. Take a look below from the Tao Te Ching, and I think you will see that he is not talking about “this world” either when residing with the Tao...

 

chapter 14

 

Look, it cannot be seen—it is beyond form.

Listen, it cannot be heard—it is beyond sound.

Grasp, it cannot be held—it is intangible.

These three are indefinable; Therefore they are joined in one.

From above it is not bright; From below it is not dark:

An unbroken thread beyond description.

It returns to nothingness. The form of the formless,

The image of the imageless, It is called indefinable and beyond imagination.

Stand before it and there is no beginning.

Follow it and there is no end.

Stay with the ancient Tao, Move with the present.

Knowing the ancient beginning is the essence of Tao.

 

such is trying and nicely conveying as much as humanly possible, yet and or still even the veil ceases...for the "Tao" knows itself when going far, returning and standing still.

 

[3bob]

15 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

"Dao", as a term, actually has more in common with the word "Dharma" than most people tend to acknowledge or recognize. 

This, I think, is an important thing to take note of. As a Golden Immortal, or an Avatar, or whatever esteemed personage he might be classed as, he would be someone near-to-perfectly aligned with the Dharma and/or the Dao. What we see in this scene is that he is in the midst of a people who do not live in accord with dharma and dao and do not even live in accord with the spirit of the old laws and covenants. 

It is written in Mark, where "vain worship" was discussed:

"

1AND there assembled together unto him the Pharisees and some of the scribes, coming from Jerusalem.2And when they had seen some of his disciples eat bread with common, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3For the Pharisees, and all the Jews eat not without often washing their hands, holding the tradition of the ancients: 4And when they come from the market, unless they be washed, they eat not: and many other things there are that have been delivered to them to observe, the washings of cups and of pots, and of brazen vessels, and of beds. 5And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients, but they eat bread with common hands?

6But he answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7And in vain to they worship me, teaching doctrines and precepts of men.

8For leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pots and of cups: and many other things you do like to these.

9And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition. 10For Moses said: Honor thy father and thy mother; and He that shall curse father or mother, dying let him die. 11But you say: If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban, (which is a gift,) whatsoever is from me, shall profit thee. 12And further you suffer him not to do any thing for his father or mother, 13Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do."

 

This correlates fairly directly to the quote in the OP when Jesus was questions by Pilate:

"33Pilate therefore went into the hall again, and called Jesus, and said to him: Art thou the king of the Jews?34Jesus answered: Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or have others told it thee of me? 35Pilate answered: Am I a Jew? Thy own nation, and the chief priests, have delivered thee up to me: what hast thou done? 36Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence. 37Pilate therefore said to him: Art thou a king then? Jesus answered: Thou sayest that I am a king. For this was I born, and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice. 38Pilate saith to him: What is truth? And when he said this, he went out again to the Jews, and saith to them: I find no cause in him. 39But you have a custom that I should release one unto you at the pasch: will you, therefore, that I release unto you the king of the Jews? 40Then cried they all again, saying: Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber. "

 

His kingdom is not of the world. It is ruled by a higher law than one that can be found in the world. If "his servants"---those who lived by the law---were prominent in the world, he would not have been incarcerated. This is an issue related to the loss of Dharma/ loss of Dao and loss of adherence to the old Laws and Covenants.

 

From the Tao Te Ching:

"A truly good man is not aware of his goodness,
And is therefore good.
A foolish man tries to be good,
And is therefore not good.
A truly good man does nothing,
Yet nothing is left undone.
A foolish man is always doing,
Yet much remains to be done
When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone.
When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done.
When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds,
He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
When kindness is lost, there is justice.
When justice is lost, there is ritual.
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.
Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of the Tao.
It is the beginning of folly".

 

 

I'd say that a Being and or Beings that could lend assistance were no more than a half an eye-blink in time or a distance of millimeter away...just as it is now yet we are not or seldom privy to the workings of such Beings or turnings.  (remember that  Beings of a higher vibration can see most or all of what is transpiring  in the "world" and have the power to intercede here at the drop of a hat or faster if the Spirit moves them to do so, in comparison while or when we are stuck in lower vibrations we can not or seldom see or know of such Beings and the what and why of their doings.  

Edited October 2, 2017 by 3bob

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, 3bob said:

Thanks folks for some reflective considerations...and which I think can and should be continued in several ways!

 

Another quote from the TTC which to me contradicts the op quote in certain ways or has certain implications:

Chap. 25

"...Man follows the ways of the Earth

The Earth follows the ways of Heaven,

Heaven follows the ways of Tao,

Tao follows its own ways."

Thus there is no separation in "the kingdom of Tao" so to speak...as is no cut-off point, dismissal or demeaning parts of that "kingdom".

 

 

23 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

well some of those terms are or could be problematic in definition...for instance, "a spiritual kingdom beyond the one that very few experience".  well if one thinks of energy and so called matter there is no beyond to either since they are the same thing vibrating at different rates and also relative to the observer and their rate of vibration if any difference is going to be held, even if it can't ultimately be held.

 

In the aboriginal shamanism I have been experiencing  .... in 'the old days  ( before the arrival of Europeans and 'white settlement' )  there was no 'earth heaven distinction'  ... this was it .  The environment was an eternal spiritual place , like the garden of Eden , with all supplied and all needs catered for.  You lived in that 'spiritual' environment ... or actually ,   were part of it, before birth , during life and after life , moving through cycles , forms and different bodies.  There were 'the heavens', of course, but they were seen as ( and actually are ) an extension of the environment .

 

 

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, rainbowvein said:

We all have differing views and differing experience. This makes it very difficult to discuss spirituality.  

 

Mmmmmm  ?  I think I am getting 3bob  okay    

[Cheshire Cat]

Naivety at its peak? I'm not referring to this thread: I'm talking about Pilate.

 

Context: Jesus arrested.

 

Fake english translation: "So Judas came to the garden, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and the Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons" ( John 18:3 )

 

Original greek gospel: "ὁ οὖν Ἰούδας λαβὼν τὴν σπεῖραν καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἀρχιερέων καὶ ἐκ τῶν Φαρισαίων ὑπηρέτας ἔρχεται ἐκεῖ μετὰ φανῶν καὶ λαμπάδων καὶ ὅπλων." ( John 18:3 )

 

a detachment of soldiers --> σπεῖραν ---> cohort

 

This is a very specific term which tells us precisely how many soldiers there.

Please, check the translation here (http://biblehub.com/text/john/18-3.htm)

 

According to the gospels and to historians, the Romans were facing serious problems in the land of the Jews: Pontius Pilate had to face hundreds of rebellions, Zealots and Messiahs. He had to manage soldiers with care because they were needed almost everywhere.

 

Now, how many roman soldiers arrest Jesus? a Cohort: roughly 500 soldiers.

 

500 soldiers! A fact that was hidden in the other gospels which were written specifically for the roman world because...  roman audience knew that when a cohort happened to arrest someone, that guy was  surely a sort of Osama Bin Laden.

 

Guess who gives order to roman cohorts and send them around the regions? Pontius Pilate.

Do you really think that romans used to borrow 500 soldiers to jewish priests to help them arrest blasphemers?  Romans send soldiers only when soldiers are needed according to roman laws.

 

Yet, when the cohort returns and they bring Jesus in front of him, he's so surprised and naive. He asked to the Pharisees “What charges are you bringing against this man?”... and he concluded like this “I find no basis for a charge against him".

 

It's like capturing Saddam Hussein, deploying resources and soldiers and then say: "Nah...he's innocent".

 

This is a strong indication that Jesus' interrogation is probably fake.

And BTW, who could report the event apart from the romans themselves?

 

In addition, Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

 

But we know that Peter fight to prevent the arrest of Jesus: "Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear."

 

We should conclude that Peter is not one of Jesus' servants.

[3bob]

interesting information Cheshire cat,

 

btw, I was thinking along the lines of a multiple "angels" that could have come to the aid of Jesus in one way or another before, during or after his arrest...for in other parts of the Bible we read about miraculous interventions, prevention's or escapes such as being in two places at once, walking through walls, being in the lions den, being in a furnace and surviving, walking on water, etc., etc...but methods such as those were not used and going by Bible verses related to that event and their context and content such methods were not meant to be used in this case - so one might ask why Jesus even mentioned that such aid would be precipitated yet implying failure of it to come because it was not available for (although it really was since spiritual beings or help is never farther away than an eye blink)  this particular event of his arrest?

Edited October 3, 2017 by 3bob

[rainbowvein]

Maybe some immortals can't wait to return to the motherland (formless realms).  

[Cheshire Cat]

I'm prone to think that 1st century writers that talk about cohorts in relation to roman soldiers, they actually mean cohorts in the majority of cases.

 

In addition, in the gospel of John, σπεῖραν appears in conjunction with χιλίαρχος (which was the greek for tribunus, the commander of a cohort) (John 18:12; Acts 21:31).

 

John says explicitly that there was a σπεῖραν (cohort) and if you're in doubt because there's a chance that you've studied Polybius, he adds that the χιλίαρχος (tribunus, commander of the cohort) was also present.

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Cheshire Cat

[Cheshire Cat]

10 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

 [...]

 

And, likewise, "fight" is not the best word---which is why I prefer the Douay translation. The word means to contend with---as in a fight or athletic competition. http://biblehub.com/greek/75.htm

Modern translations tend to say "fight" because our own vernacular usage of the word is widespread and not confined to warfare. 

 

Whatever

 

"My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would contend with (the jewish leaders?) to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

 

Again, in this passage Jesus doesn't mention the roman soldiers that were present in the garden and he explicitly says that he was arrested by the perfidious jews.

 

Antisemitism + Pilate (roman authority) washes his hands of any responsibilities+ incoherence + gospel transcribed by roman writers ---> I think that this story is made-up to make the gospel more appealing to the roman audience..

[Cueball]

On 3 October 2017 at 2:19 PM, 3bob said:

btw, I was thinking along the lines of a multiple "angels" that could have come to the aid of Jesus in one way or another before, during or after his arrest...for in other parts of the Bible we read about miraculous interventions, prevention's or escapes such as being in two places at once, walking through walls, being in the lions den, being in a furnace and surviving, walking on water, etc., etc...but methods such as those were not used and going by Bible verses related to that event and their context and content such methods were not meant to be used in this case - so one might ask why Jesus even mentioned that such aid would be precipitated yet implying failure of it to come because it was not available for (although it really was since spiritual beings or help is never farther away than an eye blink)  this particular event of his arrest?

 

Working on the premise that to get help you need to request it, one account has it that aid was not forthcoming because (although available) none was needed.

 

That version also has it that Jesus did not suffer, and that no one else was responsible for his demise. e.g The Apocalypse of James:

 

“Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm. But this (people) existed as a type of the archons, and it deserved to be destroyed through them.”

 

Taking it further, not only was there no worldly retribution causing pain, but even the crucifixion wasn’t a big deal, since he didn't "die in reality". And Judas, rather than playing the role of the great betrayer, was in fact of such high merit that Jesus entrusted him to be the one to hand him over, telling him: “But you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me.” (Gospel of Judas).

 

Which turns on its head any sense that a mission had gone awry, or that help was needed. Perhaps in this case — as well as others — if you don’t need help, you don’t ask... and you don’t get.

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Cueball

[Cueball]

On the subject of separation — the Tao may include the 10,000 things/manifested worlds, but isn't there a lot of talk in the Tao Te Ching of 'returning'? If separation and aberration was not possible, there would be no return to speak of.

[rene]

5 minutes ago, Cueball said:

On the subject of separation — the Tao may include the 10,000 things/manifested worlds, but isn't there a lot of talk in the Tao Te Ching of 'returning'? If separation and aberration was not possible, there would be no return to speak of.

 

You are right, there is nothing that needs 'returning' to. Many seek what is not lost in the first place. Some readers of the TTC do not understand this, possibly because the translators did not either; all of which Laozi was likely very aware of.

[Brian]

1 hour ago, rene said:

 

You are right, there is nothing that needs 'returning' to. Many seek what is not lost in the first place. Some readers of the TTC do not understand this, possibly because the translators did not either; all of which Laozi was likely very aware of.

I coined the phrase "unforgetting" some years ago because it felt like a good fit.

[Apech]

Forgive my simplicity but wasn't he just saying he wasn't building an earthly state but a spiritual tradition???

 

 

[3bob]

the Tao is said to be "standing alone without change", yet it is also said to "go on is to be far" and also "moves" along with "to return" which all can be found in the T.T.C. chap.14, 16, 25....etc..which can bring us back to chap 1 where "flow" and "origin" are mentioned which to me is related to the "mysteries" and permutations if you will of Tao.  (like "The One,The Two, The Three, and The Ten thousand".   Thus there is no denial of the manifest as in goes far and in "to return to the root is to find peace"

Edited October 4, 2017 by 3bob