Goals

[rain]

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Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[Ian]

Ian

 

Thank you for posting a really good question.

 

I don't think it's because people are afraid or embarassed that they don't verbalize or state their goals here or elsewhere.

 

In truth I think it's because the goal or goals are clouded by two very complex aspects:

 

1. As you go into spiritual cultivation, the inital goals or reasons for practicing change or dissappear.

For me this has happened for a number of reasons, but mostly these:

a) I realize the naive or childish foundation on which these were established

I had transformative experiences that made these goals irrelevant, or better yet absurd

 

2. Going through life, facing it's challenges and chaos, the reason you do what you do are mostly not very articulated, or conscious. (if you are not a monk, and has taken vows). For many, including me, the reason I cultivate are a mix of delusions of grandeur, the need to ease the pain of life, a refuge, a place of hope, a state of comfort, security, control, wanting to be special, remove myself from the mundane reality of life, become a little modern day recluse, etc. etc. And in that sense, I am not very different from the average gym rat, anorectic, workaholic, or poser. Most of these are not goals per se, but forces of motivation. As for the goals for practice proper, these are very seldom truly sincere. With real sincerity comes responsibility, and that's scary.

 

But maybe the real reason I feel that there is very little about my practice that is related to the goals of practice is this: The practice very seldom leads me in the direction of my conscious goals:

I want peace but experience hardship

I need health, but experience recurring health problems

I seek wisdom, insight and security but are faced with confusion, turmoil and doubt.

 

And directly related to practice, all the sensations of what I felt was "correct" practice has now, for most, dissapeared. Not alot of chi sensation, no tangible signs of "transformation", and so the hunger for "rewards" in my practice is dwelling in this really vague, undefined space where form and sitting is just what it is: practice. And mostly it feels really meaningless.

 

My master warned against this, and said that most people drop out at this stage.

 

h

 

Your honesty and self awareness continue to inspire me. Nice one!

[freeform]

maybe all of us in fact do give up at a certain point...........

 

giving up is underrated. give up. give up completely. give up to the point that there is nothing more to give up. give up your most treasured goals, values, memories and fantasies.

 

...this opens the front channel - going down into the abyss of nothingness (also 'everythingness'). Out of this nothingness may arise an impulse for 'somthingness' - and we go back up from the deep, dark depths, up to the singular, individual light of the head and as this flower blooms, we go back down, giving up the light, giving up the seductive beauty of the mind, and so the cycle repeats... This is the microcosmic, as i see it at the moment (I'll give up on this idea in about 17 seconds )

 

rain - I like your posts - there is a real tempo, rhythm to the words sometimes - are you 'musical'?

[Pietro]

Seems to me (deep breath) that the whole "my practice is better than your practice" thing could be undermined nicely if we established that different people's practices are designed to achieve different results, and therefore not better or worse, just different.

 

Yet this is very hard to establish, because in virtually no cases, in my experience, does anyone speak clearly about what the ultimate goal of their practice is.

 

...

 

If one were slightly kinder one might think that people are embarrassed to mention the goal of their practice because it's either

 

a very abstract seeming spiritual destination which others might mock as unreal, or

a very mundane goal of heath and contentment which others might mock as unambitious.

 

So, would anyone care to state their destination? Especially anyone who thinks their practice is superior to anything else?

 

At the very least, we could make a division between between practices pointing towards liberation and practices pointing towards immortality, if those goals are still considered different these days.

 

Hello Ian,

I haven't answered you before because I haven't read this thread.

 

I would like to point out the goal of my school as well as my goals.

 

My school, from a meditation point of view, has two goals for the practitioner. The first is to become a human being, the second to become one with the tao. Now in such school you don't even engage in the question if you want to go for the second unless you have achieved the first. So right now all I am working on, in respect to what I learn from this school, is about how to become a human being.

 

Now about my personal goal. It is more a sensation that is guiding me, than an intellectual goal.

 

There some activities that I engage in that satisfy me in a very deep way. It is very clear to me that those activities are satisfying to me for something that is somehow unique in me. You would have a different set of activities, for example. Although we might find ourself to have a lot of the search in common when we both ask ourself, " ok, what makes sense for me to do in this point in time". But then the answer that we get would be different.

 

One of such activity is academic research, for example.

And so on.

 

I see myself as a flower that is opening (Sorry for the gay image, it is probably the first time I share it, and with reason). As the flower is closed it is difficult to distinguish the petals. Each petal is a passion. One would be Academic research, another would be traveling, and so on.

 

As I experience life, the petals have the possibility to open up. It is not always easy. Sometimes it is scary. Often you need to throw away all you have achieved so far to let the next petal open up. But as each petal open up, I learn more and more about myself. I know more and more the answer to the question "who am I?".

 

So my goal is to fully open this flower.

 

I think the Chinese term is to develop my Ming. Or to return to my Ming. Or to embody my Ming. Or to do something with or toward my Ming (Ming as Destiny, 命).

 

Now if you consider that, again in my school a prerequisite to receive in the second part of the training (the one that goes from being a human being to being one with the tao) you need to be able to answer with no doubt at the question "who am I", you can see how my goals at this point and the goal of my school are in line.

 

I hope I answered your question satisfactorily.

 

And yes, very good question.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Pietro

[rain]

...............

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[freeform]

your reflections on the "inbetween" are lovely. you are describing the personal path of dissolving of opposites?

the strenght of a nervoussystem finely tuned as to tolerate and carry strain of dissonance?

 

not really dissolving opposites, but rather 'joining'... it's kind of 'sexual'.

[rain]

................

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[Guest winpro07]

i got lost behind I when i was 14. It was a long road back.

 

-to remain present with those who will return, and for those who will never leave.

[Taiji Bum]

So am I the only guy here who wants to ascend or at least attain physical immortality while I figure out the ascension thing? Thats the only reason I am interested in Taoism, BTW.

 

All the relax and do nothing talk sounds like loser talk to me but I am a very action oriented person. I do understand the surfer mentality of "Its all good" and non-striving and that those people might live a happier life than me but goals and action make me tick.

 

Seriously, am I the only person here seeking the literal Taoist Immortality status?

[mwight]

So am I the only guy here who wants to ascend or at least attain physical immortality while I figure out the ascension thing? Thats the only reason I am interested in Taoism, BTW.

 

All the relax and do nothing talk sounds like loser talk to me but I am a very action oriented person. I do understand the surfer mentality of "Its all good" and non-striving and that those people might live a happier life than me but goals and action make me tick.

 

Seriously, am I the only person here seeking the literal Taoist Immortality status?

 

I do not wish to be born again. If that means immortality, or eternal rest I am content with either outcome. That is what I seek.

 

I agree about necessary action, it seems to me most people here don't really care about accomplishing anything, they just want to live happy lives.

 

I want to be liberated, and I agree with you.

[Wayfarer64]

Today my goal is to get my head around the idea that the Tao is a pathway that binds all, everything, any, each, as well as nothing, in a cosmic unity...

 

As If It is some sort of universal nervous system... and then realize that aspect is only one small aspect of the Tao and not the Tao we allude to here...

 

If I can put my mind into that greater concept for a while I will be quite happy...

 

Tomorrow I will think of places to fish in the spring...

[freeform]

All the relax and do nothing talk sounds like loser talk to me but I am a very action oriented person. I do understand the surfer mentality of "Its all good" and non-striving and that those people might live a happier life than me but goals and action make me tick.

 

Darin - EXACTLY! - 'loser talk'

 

Losing is what it's all about - at least for me.

 

 

Although you do have a really narrow, stereotypical idea of what someone 'going with the flow' is like - I've met maybe one person who I would consider as 'going with the flow' totally - he also happens to be the only person I've met that I could remotely consider 'enlightened', and he's very active, very successful (in the monetary sense) and tends to very quickly become excellent at whatever he turns his hand to. However everything he does is spontaneous, there is no planning, no 'consideration' or verbal/deductive/logical thought process.

 

Since you're a fan of goal making, you may know that one of the most important steps is answering this question in very exact, specific detail: how would you know that you got what you wanted? (any scientist here would see the profound importance of this).

 

It could be simple: "I want a red ferrari - so I know I've got it when I have the car in my drive with the keys in my hand, and an invoice showing that I own it fully"

 

so Darin, how would you know that you've achieved immortality or ascended? - if you dont have a very precise, specific answer, then you'll end up chasing after a mental construct - 'you get what you focus on' - if what you focus on is a vague illusory ideal - then you'll get a vague illusion of attainment...

 

by the way I really respect your drive and dedication, please don't take this as anything other than a friendly discussion and the sharing of personal discoveries.

[Taiji Bum]

Ascension means turning my physical body into one or formless energy with my personality/individuality intact and having the ability to from a new physical form anytime I wanted. I see it like on Stargate sorta.

 

Physical immortality living in this physical body forever or until I achieve the ultimate freedom of ascension.

[mwight]

Ascension means turning my physical body into one or formless energy with my personality/individuality intact and having the ability to from a new physical form anytime I wanted. I see it like on Stargate sorta.

 

Physical immortality living in this physical body forever or until I achieve the ultimate freedom of ascension.

 

Ascension would be great (for a while), but I think eternal non-existence might be better in the long run.

[freeform]

Ascension means turning my physical body into one or formless energy with my personality/individuality intact and having the ability to from a new physical form anytime I wanted. I see it like on Stargate sorta.

 

Physical immortality living in this physical body forever or until I achieve the ultimate freedom of ascension.

 

still very vague.

 

how would you know you're immortal?

 

how would you know that your physical body has turned into one or formless energy?

 

What specifically would you see, hear, feel/touch, taste and/or smell that would let you know this is so?

 

examples: "I would hear three independent observers say that my body is giving off incredible amount of light" - "I would hear two different doctors tell me that the gunshot that went right through my brain has caused me no harm whatsoever - I would also see mri scans, x-ray scans and other test results that show me in perfect health"

 

...this is what I mean by being specific. If it feels very uncomfortable to make these goals so specific, then that's an indication that you're chasing after illusion...

[mwight]

still very vague.

 

how would you know you're immortal?

 

how would you know that your physical body has turned into one or formless energy?

 

What specifically would you see, hear, feel/touch, taste and/or smell that would let you know this is so?

 

examples: "I would hear three independent observers say that my body is giving off incredible amount of light" - "I would hear two different doctors tell me that the gunshot that went right through my brain has caused me no harm whatsoever - I would also see mri scans, x-ray scans and other test results that show me in perfect health"

 

...this is what I mean by being specific. If it feels very uncomfortable to make these goals so specific, then that's an indication that you're chasing after illusion...

 

If you were ascended you should be able to walk through walls, become invisible, transverse the multi-verse to any reality which you see fit to reside in. If you are truly ascended you should be able to see through all of it and realize the ultimate nature of reality and yourself. I don't think there would be any question as to whether or not your ascended.

Edited January 18, 2008 by mwight

[Taiji Bum]

I think this is just one of those things that you either "get", or you dont.

[Procurator]

 

 

Seriously, am I the only person here seeking the literal Taoist Immortality status?

the important question is - how is it working out for you so far?

[freeform]

http://poetv.com/video.php?vid=26090

 

[mwight]

http://poetv.com/video.php?vid=26090

 

 

well I agree a lot of people seek power to get their rocks off, or to control and manipulate people, to exploit everything in the world to boost their ego and pocketbook and indulge their carnal pleasures.

 

Most of these people go into politics, they crave and lust after power to use it to control other people.

 

 

I also seek power, but I could a give a shit less about controlling other people, or trying to control any aspect of this world.

 

I WANT OUT...

 

I want to leave this world and never return. Eternal nonexistance, eternal rest, never to wake up in a world ever again, anywhere, ever. That sounds so... so wonderful.

 

Immortality of the spirit is a close second aspiration, perhaps I could spend my eternity in metta meditation, or emptiness meditation. I don't think I would be too concerned with anything in this state except maybe helping living beings who sought to ascend also.

 

 

It's ok to want power to liberate yourself, its not ok to want power to control and manipulate other people like they were your puppets.

[rain]

well I agree a lot of people seek power to get their rocks off, or to control and manipulate people, to exploit everything in the world to boost their ego and pocketbook and indulge their carnal pleasures.

 

Most of these people go into politics, they crave and lust after power to use it to control other people.

I also seek power, but I could a give a shit less about controlling other people, or trying to control any aspect of this world.

 

I WANT OUT...

 

I want to leave this world and never return. Eternal nonexistance, eternal rest, never to wake up in a world ever again, anywhere, ever. That sounds so... so wonderful.

 

Immortality of the spirit is a close second aspiration, perhaps I could spend my eternity in metta meditation, or emptiness meditation. I don't think I would be too concerned with anything in this state except maybe helping living beings who sought to ascend also.

It's ok to want power to liberate yourself, its not ok to want power to control and manipulate other people like they were your puppets.

-----------

change the mantra?

 

"I spend my eternity in metta meditation, or emptiness meditation."

 

??

Edited January 19, 2008 by rain