Is KunLun Bogus?

[joeblast]

cotton candy wont fill you, though. and if you do manage to fill yourself with it, you'll be a pretty sick puppy. I could see if he said it was a spiritual pb&j or something

 

imho, kunlun is just another tool in the toolbox. it wont fix your whole damn house, but it will do a good bit for ya.

[Starjumper]

At risk of sounding over cynical I would like to ask the question: Is KunLun Bogus?

 

I appreciate that I came to this party late but it's new to me and it looks like others are still brining it up too. After reading more of the fantastic claims that Max makes for this simplistic thing he teaches it looks even more like he is a scammer.

 

Some of the supporters say "just try the practice" and you'll find out how great it is.

 

Well I've been doing just this kind of thing for well over a decade and I know how it fits in the big picture.

 

I've dedicated my life to mastering real nei kung and as a result I can tell you about this kunlun 1 practice, how it works,what it's good for, what it's not so good for and I will explain how you can make this and similar postures work better for you depending on what your goal is.

 

First of all Max says to raise your heels off the floor but he doesn't tell you to shake your legs. Well folks, the whole idea of this kind of thing is to shake your legs to generate some energy, so why doesn't he just cut the crap and come right out and say it. That's what the masters do. Shake your legs! Generate energy! Period.

 

I think he doesn't want to say it for perverse reasons of making some people feel like they have achieved something grand when the shaking starts - a cheap trick. It is a tool to gain a sort of psychological control over people, which goes well with a good scamming. ALSO, if you raise your heels up high enough, really high, all the way, and hold them there then the strain that it causes will make your calf muscles start trembling right away. DUH!! What a good teacher would do, if he wanted it to be spontaneous, is tell people that they aren't raising their heels high enough to make the shaking start, but obviously he doesn't do that. I'm not sure why, but the whole thing stinks big time.

 

Using leg shaking is a good way to generate energy. I'm sure a lot of the impressionalbe people here have been doing the stillness and visualizing practices, which don't generate energy, and wimpy chi kung, and so first feeling this energy can seem like a really big deal. It's NOT a big deal! But it is not in alignment with all the grandiose statements Max makes like it's his special super duper gift to the universe. It has long been well know in chi kung circles that shaking the body is a good way of generating energy and clearing blockages and it has been written about, for example in Lam Kam Chuen's The Way of Energy it talks about the benefits of shaking. That book must be at least 15 years old, and it reports on knowledge that is as old as the hills.

 

There are many many ways to shake the body, and I feel many of them are secret but I will share at least one that is more powerful that the leg shaking =)

 

Later I'll write about the arm position and explain the energetic aspects of it and of better ways to use it and other hand postures that will take better advantage of the shaking energy, but first I would like to ask a question about it. Does he tell people to keep their shoulder down?

Edited January 12, 2008 by Starjumper7

[turbo]

It is easy to quote aphorisms and point fingers. Experience is subjective. Appreciate others experience as your own and may be able to understand where others come from.

 

Kunlun is great, if you believe the same then go with it. I wish you the best. In the end I believe that devotion is the key. Devotion to an ideal, a practice, a system, a God, a saint, a savior. That is the key. Surrender. That is one of the keys to progress in kunlun. Surrender/acceptance...make it your gongfu. Much more difficult to digest than cotton candy.

[Stigweard]

In healing there is the maxim: Right cure, for the right ailment, at the right time.

 

For a certain person at a certain stage in their growth Kunlun may indeed be their Tao; their most beneficial course or way of progression.

 

And if, and I am not saying it is, Kunlun is a delusional path, then I do not have the right to interfere with someone's destiny by trying to manipulate their path. Perhaps being deluded for awhile is for their highest good.

 

Live and let them live

Non-interference is Tao

My journey remains

[Starjumper]

Perhaps being deluded for awhile is for their highest good.

 

Very interesting, yes. We all go on detours, don't we. It's one of the real ways of learning.

 

I hope someone will describe the Red Phoenix posture for me so that I may analyze it's aspects for you.

 

Thanks,

Starjumper Extraordinaire.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Starjumper7

[turbo]

First of all Max says to raise your heels off the floor but he doesn't tell you to shake your legs.

 

have you tried it with only one heel up?

[Cameron]

Starjumper,

 

My legs started shaking from pretty much the first week I started Kunlun. I came on Taobums and Mantra68..Max's student and friend, has been explaining to people left and right details about shaking(including shaking in one leg is more yang one more yin etc) and that when your legs are shaking that means your "generating".

 

Honestly man, you really need to do a little better research before just coming here and going to war with Kunlun. There are dozens of threads for many months now, Mantra and Max aren't hiding details about the practice. If anything, they are more open and willing to share these practices than any Chinese alchemy teacher.

 

Unless we were willing to move to Seattle for the mere chance of studying with you or your teacher let me guess we would probably never learn a thing about the system you and your teacher teach.

 

Max is going against tradition and teaching high level practices to people.

 

You just wrote several large pragraphs about Max that are completely false. At the first workshop Max said exactly what you have said in that post and he gave people all the info they need.

 

The shaking isn't forced-you seem to have some sort of block with this aspect after Mantra already clearly explained it to you-the shaking is SPONTANEOUS and the transmission just helps the whole process along.

 

Cam

[xenolith]

Bodhisattva. ness.

[Starjumper]

Cameron wrote:

 

My legs started shaking from pretty much the first week I started Kunlun. I came on Taobums and Mantra68..Max's student and friend, has been explaining to people left and right details about shaking(including shaking in one leg is more yang one more yin etc) and that when your legs are shaking that means your "generating".

 

Honestly man, you really need to do a little better research before just coming here and going to war with Kunlun. There are dozens of threads for many months now, Mantra and Max aren't hiding details about the practice. If anything, they are more open and willing to share these practices than any Chinese alchemy teacher.

 

Unless we were willing to move to Seattle for the mere chance of studying with you or your teacher let me guess we would probably never learn a thing about the system you and your teacher teach.

 

This is true, unfortunately, my teacher won't teach anyone since he's retired, and for me, seven students is close to enough. I don't know, I could make a DVD, but it's one snapshot of an ever changing system and it's missing an important ingredient: an important aspect of my practice is that I radiate energy during class and do energy work on the students while they are meditating because it accelerates their progress so much. I don't like to spread myself too thin, unlike some people =)

 

Max is going against tradition and teaching high level practices to people.

 

Um, ya, well that's what I've been getting at here and in other threads, it's really not that much of a high level practice, except maybe to beginners.

 

You just wrote several large paragraphs about Max that are completely false. At the first workshop Max said exactly what you have said in that post and he gave people all the info they need.

 

I see, so the book leaves out the info but he says it. I think I read that some who went to the seminars said their legs didn't shake which represents a dismal failure of the teaching tool there, wouldn't you say?

 

The shaking isn't forced-you seem to have some sort of block with this aspect after Mantra already clearly explained it to you-the shaking is SPONTANEOUS and the transmission just helps the whole process along.

 

I understood that very well the first several times I read it, but it becomes spontaneous after you do it on purpose. The way the spontaneous idea is presented along with the failure of people to achieve it indicates a big problem. There is no REASON to mention the SPONTANEOUS aspect at all ever anyway.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Cameron]

I would have to disagree with what you said.

 

The first time I practiced Kunlun I really had no idea what to expect. I got the book in the mail-which in fact does talk about shaking along with a host of other side effects from the practice-and took the posture. I was interested that my leg started bouncing soon after and made a post about it in my former practice jounral and Mantra immeditetly gave us all good feedback about the bouncing.

 

I honestly just think this is some sort of bizarre ego thing you have with Max and won't comment to any more of your posts. As you have already stated you have decades of experience and seem to be really confident that Max and what he teaches are not high level stuff.

 

If you would make a DVD or atleast post a Youtube video of yourself doing a form, some Tai Chi or something so all of us can be enlightened to what a real high level practitioner such as yourself looks like.

 

I am serious. Maybe we all need to be humbled by you who knows. I have these concepts in my head about how a Bodhisattva or Buddha behaves but maybe you really have the goods. At this point I think you owe us all a small clip atleast after asserting so strongly how much better you are then another teacher.

 

Cam

[Guest winpro07]

Arrogant, rude, extremely assuming, uninformed. The energy you sling about turns my stomach

.

Cameron wrote:

This is true, unfortunately, my teacher won't teach anyone since he's retired, and for me, seven students is close to enough. I don't know, I could make a DVD, but it's one snapshot of an ever changing system and it's missing an important ingredient: an important aspect of my practice is that I radiate energy during class and do energy work on the students while they are meditating because it accelerates their progress so much. I don't like to spread myself too thin, unlike some people =)

Um, ya, well that's what I've been getting at here and in other threads, it's really not that much of a high level practice, except maybe to beginners.

I see, so the book leaves out the info but he says it. I think I read that some who went to the seminars said their legs didn't shake which represents a dismal failure of the teaching tool there, wouldn't you say?

 

 

 

I understood that very well the first several times I read it, but it becomes spontaneous after you do it on purpose. The way the spontaneous idea is presented along with the failure of people to achieve it indicates a big problem. There is no REASON to mention the SPONTANEOUS aspect at all ever anyway.

Edited January 12, 2008 by winpro07

[Starjumper]

have you tried it with only one heel up?

 

I've done that a little bit, but usually it's just a brief, temporary and unplanned thing. I just tried it now on purpose for a it and it looks like the energy stays more on the side that's shaking. Is there any other point ot it that I should do it longer to check out?

[Immortal]

I personally feel that the techniques presented by Max actually do work, and I don't believe that he is a fraud. BUT, I do believe that is system is like a hodgepodge of techniques from different schools with no real systematic methodology.

 

He just says it's the quickest of the quick, but does not explain how it works. People like mantak chia have gone through great lengths to explain why and how the white cloud alchemy formulas work. Refinements have also been made to fine tune and enhance the process.

 

The system he teaches imo lacks the structure of teachings like the universal dao, dzogchen, or kriya yoga systems.

 

I also do not like the fact that he keeps saying that you are your own teacher; AFTER, you get this energy transmission and initiation. With practices like universal dao you don't need these deekshas to make the system work, just practice, practice, practice.

 

I think that if one truly want to live the path of alchemy, than the universal dao is probably the most complete and systematic method out there, kriya yoga taught by the bihar school is also pretty clean cut. If you are a layman and don't want to spend time truly learning the inner workings of alchemy then study kunlun.

 

I respect the depth that people want to go. Kunlun works for the layman, and is designed for him, it's a no fuss system of alchemy. The universal dao is designed for the true alchemist who wants to know the ins and outs of the system and truly master their chi.

[Bum Grasshopper]

What defines "real, traditional, authentic" Taoism? Doesn't Taoism teach us that the universe is in constant flux? Is a 1,000 year old system, vaguely translated off a cave wall, or passed teacher to teacher in secrecy, better than a modern one? What if the old masters had access to EEG machines, video tapes, computers, heck, even vitamin pills? What kind of practice would they develop?

 

Not that Kunlun is a modern practice. But it is presented to a modern audience. The modern world operates on money. And sensationalism. I doubt that we would even have a mention of Kunlun if it would not have been for those "fantastic" videos, real or not.

 

We study the past. We learn from it. We take all the resources we have at the present. We refine what we have and make our own "Taoism".

 

This whole thread, and many like it, proves how we over think and try to analyze everything. Taoism has taught me to trust the Tao.

 

If it feels good, do it, just not to excess. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If it hurts, it is probably no good. Try everything once, if you like it, try it again. If you believe in something, it will come true. The source is from within.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

LOL

 

Red phoenix is a visualization method so i believe and not a form or posture!!! Ommmmm

[Starjumper]

Here are some observations on the arm position used in this backwater Kunlun 1 exercise. Note, I said exercise, not system, not practice =)

 

Different hand and arm positions send the extra energy along different paths. When you have your hands in the kunlun holding the ball posture it mainly amplifies the energy in your torso, along your central channel. Normally the top hand is more flat and the bottom hand is more cupped and so the top hand is 'sending' and the bottom hand is 'receiving' and the energy flow tends towards downwards.

 

There is no reason to just have one arm up. It is always better to do balanced versions of these types of exercises, alternating hands when your shoulder gets tired. It sounds like, from people saying that their shoulders are getting very painful, that the requirement is for only one hand to be up, the right hand? The only reason to only have on hand up is to cause pain and failure =)

 

When you trap your energy along your torso centerline like that it will build up and want to get out and release and this can cause spontaneous mudras and fajin like movements, no big deal, it's showmanship.

 

Much better postures for leg shaking are holding a big ball so that your hands are low, at your lower tan tien level. This will increase your personal power without any fancy looking chi dances.

 

A better posture for spiritual cultivation, to send more energy to your head, use the leg shaking but have your hands in a zazen style posture, palm up but raise your hands about an inch off your lap so that they aren't bothered by the shaking. Keep in mind that getting a lot of energy in your head can cause you to get 'emotional' which is normally a negative experience in our stressful society.

 

So there you have an explanation of holding the ball vertically with two other exercises that are more effective and they are easier to do too. There are other hand positions which are better for getting rid of sick energy.

 

What defines "real, traditional, authentic" Taoism? Doesn't Taoism teach us that the universe is in constant flux? Is a 1,000 year old system, vaguely translated off a cave wall, or passed teacher to teacher in secrecy, better than a modern one? What if the old masters had access to EEG machines, video tapes, computers, heck, even vitamin pills? What kind of practice would they develop?

 

 

Well my teacher went to an open house at the university hospital where his wife worked and had a free EEG brainwave test. The doctors interpreting the readout said his EEG was like that of a teenagers, and he was 78 at the time. So I'll stick with the systems that have been constantly refined over thousands of years by generation after generation of practical genius masters in secrecy, they had a very good reason for secrecy. My practice is about 1600 years old and it wasn't scratched on a cave wall.

[turbo]

one heel was just an idea to see how it works for you, i have no idea what to expect, except that you got what you expected

 

the path is a subjective experience, and should be respected as such. i hope that everyone has as much success with their path as they put into it and if you get more than that then hallelujah, you have found the path that works for you. there is almost no absolute truth. experience is the ultimate teacher. do what makes you happy and fuck everyone else. if you tried kunlun with one heel then you are still on the search for something that you will not find, ie: proof. its all subjective. develop your own gongfu and leave everyone else to their own (subjective) happiness.

[Starjumper]

one heel was just an idea to see how it works for you, i have no idea what to expect, except that you got what you expected

 

if you tried kunlun with one heel then you are still on the search for something that you will not find, ie: proof. its all subjective.

 

Jesus Christ, are you for real? I tried it because you asked me about it. And I didn't get what I expected, I reported to you what I experienced - because you asked? duhhhh ...and fuck proof.

 

Is there a rule against four letter words here?

[turbo]

...and fuck proof.

Exactly. Fuck proof. Fuck it all to hell. Go with what makes you happy.

[Starjumper]

LOL

 

Red phoenix is a visualization method so i believe and not a form or posture!!! Ommmmm

 

Thanks, most visualization is combined with a particular posture, I'll bet it calls for a particular posture. What is the visualization? I suppose the name Red Phoenix is the renaming of some technique which we might already know under a different name. Kind of like where holding the ball isn't holding the ball, it's superkunlun.

 

As far as transmissions are concerned, someone mentioned that the book contains a transmission =) Probably a belt drive transmission. Or maybe it transmits words and ideas, so see, it's the truth.

 

Ommmmm back atcha.

[Cameron]

I won't describe the practice since Mantra said not to. There is a transmission that goes along with Red Phoenix just as there is a transmission for kunlun.

 

Can't say about book transmission. But I would take the description from the book over illegal copyright posting over the internet incomplete descriptions.

 

Also, Starjumper, I think everyone is acutely aware now that you think kunlun is bs, Max is a fraud and you think your system and teacher are much better. You really don't need to repeat yourself in every single post man. I am willing to bet people here are intelligent enough to get your position on this issue by now.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Ommmm!

 

Im interested in Max's Thunder Breathing has anyone done it? Ommmmmmm

[portcraig]

I just got back from the lecture Max gave in Los Angeles. The room was packed. Must have been about 60 or 70 persons in a fairly small room. A lot of the people I had seen before. Several people gave testimonials on how Kunlun had helped them or told the type of experiences they were having.

 

One of Max's top students was there. She has been having some pretty strong "death" experiences and is about ready to have the golden dragon body experience. She tried to put into words about what she has been experiencing. It was inspiring to listen to her. It show that Kunlun can lead you to the highest experience if you really want that.

 

Max mentioned that the transmission helps you to get connected to the 2701 masters of the Kunlun lineage. If you really work at this path maybe you will see them in your meditation.

 

Max told about recently he met with a very high level Tibetan Master. Max said that they were able to communicate mind to mind without words. The Tibetan Master's Los Angeles representative was there and gave Max some gifts as appreciation. Max mentioned that the Tibetan Master is going to start having some of his students add Kunlun to their practice.

 

To me Kunlun is a genuine and authentic path and I am happy that I am on it. From what I heard at the lecture I am not the only one that feels that way. Craig

Edited January 12, 2008 by portcraig

[Stigweard]

 

Obviously this debate is going to roll on. Nothing wrong with differing opinions, it can be a wonderful tonic.

 

However, if personalities are expressed too strongly then the truth is buried and sullied by coarse emotions.

 

I have posted Rules of a Fair Argument here:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/Insult-policy-reminder-t4237.html

 

Perhaps our combatants would be advised to keep this in mind so that this forum is enriched by this discussion rather than repulsed by it.

 

Peace

Edited January 12, 2008 by Sifu Stigweard

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Sounded like a great seminar, why is the Tibetans using a Daoist Kunlun system when they have there own mantras, mudras, visualzations, and what not?

 

Max has learnt high level Tibetan systems Phurba and thunder breathing and say its the highest i dont understand can someone clarify?