Is KunLun Bogus?

[Starjumper]

Starjumper, I think everyone is acutely aware now that you think kunlun is bs, Max is a fraud and you think your system and teacher are much better. You really don't need to repeat yourself in every single post man. I am willing to bet people here are intelligent enough to get your position on this issue by now.

 

Could be, but it sounds like I gave you the wrong idea, possibly on purpose, so I should clarify my feelings at this point. I'll generously give Max a C+, his teachings a C- or D+, and his marketing methods, ethics, and claims an F-. So see, I've been upgrading him ever since.

 

I guess one thing that is positive is that he is giving people a taste of what an energetic practice is like, lopsided as it may be.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

One of Max's top students was there. She has been having some pretty strong "death" experiences and is about ready to have the golden dragon body experience. She tried to put into words about what she has been experiencing. It was inspiring to listen to her. It show that Kunlun can lead you to the highest experience if you really want that.

 

This brings up another thought I've had previously when I reflect on Taobums. I notice a lot of people talking about doing things like semen retention and running this energy around and having wowie zowie experiences. It honestly made me think of it as a sort of masturbating. Playing with the energy until you have a wowie zowie experience is a lot like masturbating. I really don't see how these experiences can be considered 'high'.

 

What is the golden dragon body experience, or is that another secret code word for something else?

Edited January 12, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Golden dragon could be like rainbow body i could be wrong?

[Mal]

I just got back from the lecture Max gave in Los Angeles. The room was packed. Must have been about 60 or 70 persons in a fairly small room.

 

When these sort of things start to go massive it often but not always becomes more difficult for the late arrivals to get access to the original teacher. Layers start to appear, even it it's just because of logistics rather than intent. And many teachers decide not to go through the constant debate and just scale back to a quiet garage with some close students.

 

I wonder where we are at with this and I wonder what the chances are for :-

 

1. A person who just reads the book and does the practice for 3 years.

 

2. A person who makes it to a seminar and gets the transmission, only once

 

3. If web based forums help at all

 

Speaking of golden dragon it's been mentioned a few times that Max will not tour forever.How long will the window of opportunity will be open?

[xenolith]

What defines "real, traditional, authentic" Taoism? Doesn't Taoism teach us that the universe is in constant flux? Is a 1,000 year old system, vaguely translated off a cave wall, or passed teacher to teacher in secrecy, better than a modern one? What if the old masters had access to EEG machines, video tapes, computers, heck, even vitamin pills? What kind of practice would they develop?

 

Not that Kunlun is a modern practice. But it is presented to a modern audience. The modern world operates on money. And sensationalism. I doubt that we would even have a mention of Kunlun if it would not have been for those "fantastic" videos, real or not.

 

We study the past. We learn from it. We take all the resources we have at the present. We refine what we have and make our own "Taoism".

 

This whole thread, and many like it, proves how we over think and try to analyze everything. Taoism has taught me to trust the Tao.

 

If it feels good, do it, just not to excess. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If it hurts, it is probably no good. Try everything once, if you like it, try it again. If you believe in something, it will come true. The source is from within.

Wisdom. Every word.

[Trunk]

First of all Max says to raise your heels off the floor but he doesn't tell you to shake your legs. Well folks, the whole idea of this kind of thing is to shake your legs to generate some energy, so why doesn't he just cut the crap and come right out and say it. That's what the masters do. Shake your legs! Generate energy! Period.

 

... ALSO, if you raise your heels up high enough, really high, all the way, and hold them there then the strain that it causes will make your calf muscles start trembling right away. DUH!! What a good teacher would do, if he wanted it to be spontaneous, is tell people that they aren't raising their heels high enough to make the shaking start, but obviously he doesn't do that. ...

Wow.

You had me going there for a while; I thought you were going to make a somewhat substantial approach.

But you obviously haven't even tried the method for any duration before "analyzing" it.

You're not even close in your analysis.

[Wayfarer64]

I've not been out on the town in weeks. I need a new party line. The hey let's party! May not still be workable.Any suggestions?

 

Please shake a leg with yr advice. I get off work at 6 this evening and want to hit the ground on a roll.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Wayfarer64

[Jakara]

I just got back from the lecture Max gave in Los Angeles. The room was packed. Must have been about 60 or 70 persons in a fairly small room. A lot of the people I had seen before. Several people gave testimonials on how Kunlun had helped them or told the type of experiences they were having.

 

60 or 70 people? For a seminar that would be a quick $20,000 for a few hours work. Just a few of those and its no wonder Max would no longer need to tour after a short while.

 

One of Max's top students was there. She has been having some pretty strong "death" experiences and is about ready to have the golden dragon body experience. She tried to put into words about what she has been experiencing. It was inspiring to listen to her. It show that Kunlun can lead you to the highest experience if you really want that.

 

Im hoping Max isn't condoning the death of one of his followers.

 

Max mentioned that the transmission helps you to get connected to the 2701 masters of the Kunlun lineage. If you really work at this path maybe you will see them in your meditation.

 

How would that work? Is that number picked right out of the blue? Does anyone question anything he says? I was under the impression that visualisations during meditation were an undesireable by-product of the mind.

 

Max told about recently he met with a very high level Tibetan Master. Max said that they were able to communicate mind to mind without words. The Tibetan Master's Los Angeles representative was there and gave Max some gifts as appreciation. Max mentioned that the Tibetan Master is going to start having some of his students add Kunlun to their practice.

 

Is that "tibetan master" actually tibetan? I can also communicate to people without using words, use your hands, but of course we should take Max's word for that. He brought him gifts? Isn't that a standard tibetan tradition regardless of status? I doubt any serious tibetan master with his own set of traditions is going to add bits and pieces from other traditions.

 

To me Kunlun is a genuine and authentic path and I am happy that I am on it. From what I heard at the lecture I am not the only one that feels that way. Craig

 

Thats good, from what I gather its a practice that makes you feel good. Though of course that isn't tradtitional daoist practice like Max claims. If everyone's doing it, then I should probably jump on the band wagon without question. Hand over my money and bend over whilst im at it.

[portcraig]

Jakara, I like studying with Max and didn't mind paying for the book or attending a seminar. If you aren't interested that is fine too! I was jut posting for people who might be interested and to give my opinion that at least some people consider Kunlun and studying with Max a genuine and authentic path. I am not trying to convince anyone to follow it.

 

I have had inner confirmation thorugh meditation on some of the things Max has talked about. Those experiences came about 4 months after exclusively practicing what I learned from Max in August. They didn't come right away after I read the book or went to the seminar. I guess I have an affinity to what Max teaches that is why I stuck to the practice and had the experiences. If a person justs buy the book or learns the technique from someone describing it partly on the forum and tries it once or twice I doubt they would have any experiences.

 

Regarding "death" experiences you are having similar experiences to one who dies has, you are not really dying.

 

The Tibetan master I referred to is a Tibetan and is a Rinpoche who visits the U.S.

 

Wun Yuen Gong, according to Max, Golden Dragon body is the highest state a Daoist can achieve. In Rainbow Body your body disappears but you leave behind the hair and fingernails. Golden Dragon body you can maintain the physical body.

 

Craig

Edited January 12, 2008 by portcraig

[bindo]

Jakara,

please spare us your complete ignorance about Max and the Kunlun practice.

 

The 60 or 70 people attended a FREE lecture. Not a seminar. The seminar is four hours each day for two days.

 

About Max condoning death. Use your head. Notice how death was used in quotes? duh. The "death" experience is very common in many traditions. Some take the experience farther than others, but nevertheless, anyone who has a little bit of spiritual studies under their belt has a good idea what is meant by the term when used in this context. Or are you just being a smart ass?

 

About questioning Max. Please, man! Why do you think there are so many threads on kunlun? Have you bothered to read them? Then you know we've had endless questions.

 

About visualization. Some practices use it, others don't. Contrary to what our resident Kunlun expert WYG thinks, Red Phoenix is about feeling the energy, not visualization.

 

READ THE KUNLUN AND LAMA DORJE THREADS BEFORE POSTING THOUGHTLESS COMMENTS. AND THEN BUY THE BOOK AND/OR ATTEND A SEMINAR, AND THEN, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. THEN COME BACK AND YOUR OPINIONS WILL BE WELCOME AND RESPECTED. OTHERWISE YOU ARE JUSTING WASTING OUR TIME AND YOURS.

[voidisyinyang]

Well it's all very interesting. $300 for two 4 hour classes is about twice as what qigong master Chunyi Lin charges for his classes which are through a community college in Minnesota -- http://springforestqigong.com

 

Of course if you're not in Minnesota you have to fly (or drive, etc.) and stay in a hotel making it about the same cost or more.

 

The main advantage to a class -- the real reason -- is the energy transmission from the teacher.

 

As for "masturbation" -- in fact the WHOLE point is to convert the water (semen) into bliss-heat that ionizes into electromagnetic fields then shot out of the pineal gland as light. So slapping the monkey is the exact OPPOSITE of practicing alchemy because any physical stimulation creates water.

 

If you feel the desire to create water -- that's the best leverage to sit in full-lotus. Just leverage that desire into an internal climax.

 

The bliss is an internal climax but the water shot up the back is further ionized into great heat (called N/UM by the Bushmen, the human culture for 90% of human history, when every male learned how to do this).

 

It's true that if you convert the water into bliss-light it's still "yang" and attracted to yin (female) energy.

 

So with enough practice you can also do energy transmissions through the pineal gland, but focused through the eyes, which cause a yin-yang exchange. I do this by sitting in full-lotus all the time. The yin (electrochemical) and yang (electromagnetic) is guided by the female formless awareness -- which is also called "ancient wisdom." There are different "levels" of emptiness (or female formless awareness) but the different "levels" just refers to how much yin-yang energy you have stored up in your body and then are able to transmit into a deeper "level" of emptiness or pure consciousness (formless). The alchemical agent is the combination of the electrochemical (yin), electromagnetic (yang) and the female formless awareness.

 

The subconscious desires (electrochemical) are guided by the harmonics of 1:2:3:4 -- 2:3 is yang and 3:4 is yin -- it's the perfect 5th and perfect 4th music harmonics as complimentary opposites (NOT western tuning).

 

The process relies on listening to the source of the sound in your head -- which then creates ultrasound, which then ionizes the electrochemical energy, thereby creating blissful heat.

 

This is why there is always a direct connection between sound and pure consciousness. Sound is the expression of the electrochemical or generative force energy (also called jing or lead). Alchemists state that the process starts and ends with jing.

 

The other alternative is called the "direct path" of jnana -- this is also the secret of hinayana buddhism. The direct path relies on left-brain logic, inference of the source of the I-thought as pure consciousness. A person literally continues to resonate the source of the I-thought to it's source in the heart-mind, until the I-thought NEVER arises again through the heart-mind, but only as a direct resonance with female formless awareness. The mind is literally killed (and so is the body) but they both start up again, only now with a permanent resonance past their physical source.

 

The person, now a jnana, has literally stopped their heart for over 10 minutes -- consciously, through logical inference -- and then the heart restarts, but now as eternal liberation. Sri Ramana Maharshi describes how this happened to him after only 9 years in solitude, thereby making him a jnana -- read his book "Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi." Even the modern followers of Sri Ramana Maharshi do not admit that this is the moment, after he physically killed himself, that he "cut the knot" of his heart-mind and finally achieved eternal liberation or permanent sahaja samadhi. I read all of Sri Ramana Maharshi's books at the AMES south asian library at the U of Minnesota (one of the books was a hand wrought publication straight from his ashram, while he was still alive, and the book emitted this amazing vibration).

 

For a more "Kunlun" version of these teachings -- I recommend the book on Ch'an Master Tsung Tsai: THE BONES OF THE MASTER: A Journy to Secret Mongolia by George Crane (2000).

 

Just north of Kunlun there are Indo-European skeletons dating back to 3000 BC. (see the book "Shadow of the Silk Road"). Taoism is also thought to originate from this area as well. Central Asia is the true cross-roads of the East and West.

[Jakara]

Jakara,

please spare us your complete ignorance about Max and the Kunlun practice.

 

Us? You mean you? Im sure many would like to know if a system being offered is bogus or not. If my comments are out of line then my apologies, or if my assessment of the situation is incorrect again my apologies. Ive tried my best to be objective.

 

The 60 or 70 people attended a FREE lecture. Not a seminar. The seminar is four hours each day for two days.

 

I thought that might be the case, which is why I said "if this were a seminar", free lectures are always offered as a taster to rally for the main course. Why aren't the seminars free otherwise?

 

About Max condoning death. Use your head. Notice how death was used in quotes? duh. The "death" experience is very common in many traditions. Some take the experience farther than others, but nevertheless, anyone who has a little bit of spiritual studies under their belt has a good idea what is meant by the term when used in this context. Or are you just being a smart ass?

 

Perhaps the comment about condoning death was inappropriate, though as I read in the other posts the "golden dragon body" does requires a person to die. If Max can really offer immortality to people and they follow his teachings, die and come back in their immortal dragon form then hush my mouth. But given the amount of false statements already being displayed I doubt that is a likely event.

 

About questioning Max. Please, man! Why do you think there are so many threads on kunlun? Have you bothered to read them? Then you know we've had endless questions.

 

There are endless questions, but none seem to get answered. Factual based evidence is pointed out as a warning and Max's followers don't seem to listen. Thats fine. I don't care what path anyone follows, its neither here nor there. I only felt a personal responsibility as someone with a scientific background to point out the flaws in the scientific claims that Max is making. He is making bogus claims that anyone with a deep enough scientific background will realise and expects to get away with it because the majority of us don't have enough scientific knowledge to challenge those statements.

 

About visualization. Some practices use it, others don't. Contrary to what our resident Kunlun expert WYG thinks, Red Phoenix is about feeling the energy, not visualization.

 

Fair enough, I can't question the appropriateness of visualisations as there is no evidence either way. The way in which it was said sounded a little fantastical is all.

 

READ THE KUNLUN AND LAMA DORJE THREADS BEFORE POSTING THOUGHTLESS COMMENTS. AND THEN BUY THE BOOK AND/OR ATTEND A SEMINAR, AND THEN, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. THEN COME BACK AND YOUR OPINIONS WILL BE WELCOME AND RESPECTED. OTHERWISE YOU ARE JUSTING WASTING OUR TIME AND YOURS.

 

I have read the threads. My comments are actually very thoughtful. No I won't be giving Max my money, if you send me a free book and present a free seminar that contains the same content as one that I would pay for (not a free taster style lecture) i might be more inclined, if it weren't for all the sketchy claims being made.

 

I don't care if my posts are respected by you, or anyone else, I don't care if I'm wasting my time and its your choice to read my posts. Ill offer my evaluation regardless of your opnion because it is based on logical, scientific and thought out facts, its has nothing to do with any personal agenda or opinion. I have no alternative system to offer, no bias towards Max or his followers and no reason to post for any personal benefit, I have nothing to gain from posting objective information.

 

The only reason I do is because this is called the "Tao" bums, beginners come here to find information on real Taoism and the first thing they see is kunlun and get confused, it would be irresponsible for me to let it go unchecked when there are so many false statements being made. So i present them just as you present your experience.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Jakara

[Guest winpro07]

There is an expectation among human beings to be kind, and respectful to others.

Jesus Christ, are you for real? I tried it because you asked me about it. And I didn't get what I expected, I reported to you what I experienced - because you asked? duhhhh ...and fuck proof.

 

Is there a rule against four letter words here?

[Cameron]

All these strong opinions from people who haven't done the workshop, tried the practice or even bought the book.

 

I am not sure what scientific model you are looking at. I don't pay too much attention to what people say about the science behind cultivation. It's interesting to me but my experience is enough to go on at this point without getting into all the scientific jargon. For example, Mantra recently said something like kunlun connects you to "zero point" or something. Sounded really interesting and I think I know what he was talking about but not really.

 

So far The Learners attitude is still by far the most balanced to me. Buy the book, do the practice for 6 months, if you can make a workshop great if not sounds like people are getting results just doing the practice.

 

All this arguing without even doing the practice is really getting silly. Atleast people who went off on Winn or whatever actually spoke from experience having done the meditations Healing Tao taught. Then finding something they percieved as being better(David Shen Foundation Training, Master Nan or whatever).

 

You guys are just taking a position on a great practice and teacher without any experience and the idea that Kunlun or what Max teaches isn't Taoist seems silly to me. So what do you think Kunlun is? A Muslim practice? Of course it's Taoist. It comes from China and is an awakening practice it's Taoist.

[Jakara]

The workshop costs money, the book costs money and the practice requires both of the above. Some of the statements being made are false, the only reason I would want to try the practice would be curiousity created by reading the posts of other followers. Realising that some others don't readily have access to scientific information, I wanted to list the things that are suspicious so that others can make up their own mind. Its a lot of money and time to waste otherwise.

 

Im speaking in terms of Physics. I don't blame you for not paying much attention to the scientific exaplanations being offered, but that is where some teachers take advantage, reinforcing their teachings with pseudo science which just isn't true. If Max hadn't put false statements in his talks or his website, i wouldn't have a problem, it would be an easy mistake to rectify, but he doesn't need to because of the curiousity and none questioning attitude of others.

 

Im familiar with muslim practices, so no I don't think its muslim. Im also familiar with taoist practices and don't think its taoist either. Max says its taoist, but he has said a lot of false things which is why it is in question. Is it from China? He says it is. I wouldn't be shocked if it was from modern China where traditional practice isn't allowed, only the officially approved versions are. Taiwan is the best bet for real taoism.

 

Anyways, im not here to argue. I present evidence based on scientific experience, to which the only reply is "you haven't done the practice", even if i did do the practice, it wouldn't stop the claims from being false.

[Guest winpro07]

How does science explain Female formless awarness? Chi? Shakti? The Sun & Moon chanels? Dan Tien? Or TAO??????????

The workshop costs money, the book costs money and the practice requires both of the above. Some of the statements being made are false, the only reason I would want to try the practice would be curiousity created by reading the posts of other followers. Realising that some others don't readily have access to scientific information, I wanted to list the things that are suspicious so that others can make up their own mind. Its a lot of money and time to waste otherwise.

 

Im speaking in terms of Physics. I don't blame you for not paying much attention to the scientific exaplanations being offered, but that is where some teachers take advantage, reinforcing their teachings with pseudo science which just isn't true. If Max hadn't put false statements in his talks or his website, i wouldn't have a problem, it would be an easy mistake to rectify, but he doesn't need to because of the curiousity and none questioning attitude of others.

 

Im familiar with muslim practices, so no I don't think its muslim. Im also familiar with taoist practices and don't think its taoist either. Max says its taoist, but he has said a lot of false things which is why it is in question. Is it from China? He says it is. I wouldn't be shocked if it was from modern China where traditional practice isn't allowed, only the officially approved versions are. Taiwan is the best bet for real taoism.

 

Anyways, im not here to argue. I present evidence based on scientific experience, to which the only reply is "you haven't done the practice", even if i did do the practice, it wouldn't stop the claims from being false.

[Cameron]

Ok, I see. Your on a crusade to debunk claims Max makes on the website that those of us actually practicing Kunlun could care less about.

 

Ok, I got you. That's just not really the style of most of. We are mostly a check it out, do it, report back type of group. But if really getting into debunking scientific claims Max teaches(The book mentions something about scientists saying he has high amounts of ultra violet rays from his brain and 3 strand DNA, interesting stuff but not really what drives me).

 

The way I see it if a practice is good keep it. If it's a waste of time ditch it. Most everyone doing Kunlun is getting good experiences and having fun with it. As far as the price goes as far as I know what Max teaches is comporable or even less than most well know teachers.

 

See how much it would cost you to do a workshop with BK Frantzis or week long retreat with Michael Winn and compare it to what Max charges. I really don't see where you are coming from with that.

 

The David Shen Foundation forum charges something like 10k which it's members are more than happy to pay to go visit Masters in China for 3 weeks. Master Chen in Colorado charges something like $2500 for a week long Alchemy retreat.

 

$300 for 2 days doesn't seem like an absurd amount of money.

 

What do you think Max should charge?

[xenolith]

Mantra's description of the results of Kunlun practice were, based on my experience of enlightenment, sorely lacking for such a claim. That was and is the basis of criticisms of Kunlun that I wrote/will write. When the claim of enlightenment, which for me means the experience of "stripping of ego/exposure of self/awareness of Tao", is removed from Kulun propaganda then my objection to those who promulgate it as capable of such will cease.

 

Tao is Truth. Stop lying about Kunlun. Become closer to the Tao.

[Guest winpro07]

Jakara Where is TAO?

 

Taiwan is the best bet for real taoism.

 

Anyways, im not here to argue. I present evidence based on scientific experience, to which the only reply is "you haven't done the practice", even if i did do the practice, it wouldn't stop the claims from being false.

Edited January 12, 2008 by winpro07

[Guest winpro07]

The so to speak 'aim' (there is no aim. Dakini has her own ways, and is the real mystery) of KunLun is not the """Buddha enlightenment""" KunLun is a path that can lead to liberation from the mind, but does not have to. We all move at different speeds Through this. For some persons the type pf enlightenment you describe manifests very rapidly within this system. The speed of evolution depends on the back ground of the individual, and perhaps on past practice. Beginners mind is a requirement of the Divine. The corrupt, and jaded do not get Through...

 

quote name='xenolith' post='48697' date='Jan 12 2008, 03:28 PM']

Mantra's description of the results of Kunlun practice were, based on my experience of enlightenment, sorely lacking for such a claim. That was and is the basis of criticisms of Kunlun that I wrote/will write. When the claim of enlightenment, which for me means the experience of "stripping of ego/exposure of self/awareness of Tao", is removed from Kulun propaganda then my objection to those who promulgate it as capable of such will cease.

 

Tao is Truth. Stop lying about Kunlun. Become closer to the Tao.

Edited January 12, 2008 by winpro07

[Cameron]

Mantra's description of the results of Kunlun practice were, based on my experience of enlightenment, sorely lacking for such a claim. That was and is the basis of criticisms of Kunlun that I wrote/will write. When the claim of enlightenment, which for me means the experience of "stripping of ego/exposure of self/awareness of Tao", is removed from Kulun propaganda then my objection to those who promulgate it as capable of such will cease.

 

Tao is Truth. Stop lying about Kunlun. Become closer to the Tao.

 

 

xenolith you think you are enlightened?

 

I won't say you are or not, I don't know you.

 

Do you study with anyone consistently or is this enlightenment achieved all on your own after reading about crown chakra orgasms?

 

There is something to studying with enlightened teachers. If you don't think Max is enlightened fine, but I would say study with someone you think is really enlightened and get confirmation from that teacher that you are in fact enlightened before proclaiming yourself to be.

 

Don't want to bash your experience, you may very well be high level. But I have never heard anyone who was genunely awake proclaim themselves to be enlightened. At best, they affirm where they are at with some deep teaching or something.

 

You seem very eager to critisize people who I consider high level, especially for their age, such as Mantra and Sean. Were you anywhere near these guys level of awakening when you were still in your 30's?

 

It's mind boggling to me the level of ego some of you have. The truly bizarre thing is you publically proclaim yourselves to be evoled beyond ego and then write posts that deomostrate not only that you are full of yourself(MY enlightenment experience is better than YOUR experience) but are some of the most egotistical sounding people. Some of you like Xeno, Starjumper rival born again Christians with your desire to prove yourself superior and convert the rest of us following "false teaching".

 

Are you sure you were interested in Taoism and not Catholicism or Muslim Fundamentialism or something?

[三江源]

.

Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[Guest winpro07]

LOL

 

It's certainly a cultural shift away from people believing they are Jesus.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Why doesnt MAX do a clip live in front of people levitating, becoming light? Shut everyone up that has doubts of Kunlun!!!

 

Simple answer to the questions everyone is giving!!!

[Guest winpro07]

KunLun flows out with a strong charge everything that is in the way of pure perception.

What is left is pure potential, and Divine guidance.