Is KunLun Bogus?

[jan1107]

my pancakes suck ... sorry ... if you care for thai food i might be able to help.

[Jakara]

My science? I don't hold the copyright for scientific technique. You are correct Physics doens't yet have the answers to explaining Tao, though there are logical arguements to its existence that do not require faith. But regardless, scientisits never claimed they could explain it in the first place, Max does claim he can explain it, and its false information.

 

Science doesn't have all the tools yet for the correct answers, but its better to realise that and develop the tools further than to take advantage of the blanks with pseudo babble.

 

As I said before Im not anti-kunlun, Im just presenting evidence, I'd do the same for any other technique which claims the same things. Again, regardless of my practicing kunlun or not, the claims are still bogus.

So far all anyone can verify is that it produces nice feelings for the followers, but that doesn't entail a complete daoist system like Max claims.

 

Im not a missionary trying to save anyone, again, given the amount of threads on the topic, there needs to be objective information both ways so beginners can make their own mind up. Im not trying to sway anyone either way, just putting down some evidence to make up your own mind.

 

Ive presented what I wanted to present, its flawless in logic and science and anyone who has done the research will know thats true. There are no valid, logical arguements to dispute what ive presented, only "try it for yourself" comments side-lining the issues presented and not directly answering the questions. I don't think anything more needs to be said.

 

Make your own mind up. Question everything you don't understand and check the answers with someone who does. As long as youre respectful no real teacher should take offense. We are all human beings in the same relationship to tao, no person is higher up than another, ranking systems are a production of the egotistical mind.

[Cameron]

Jakara,

 

I am curious what do you consider a "complete Taoist system"?

 

The way kunlun has been described it is a fast way of removing that which is not needed. To me, Kunlun sounds very in line with practices like zazen or Taoist sitting and forgetting just works very quickly. I don't think kunlun is the end all be all of qigong, nei kung, Tao or whatever we are calling it. I am pretty sure Max doesn't teach that.

 

The most I have heard Max say is the Kunlun and another practice he teaches called Red Phoenix can lead you to something called "Golden Dragon Body" which he says is the highest spiritual state a human being can achieve.

 

So, I would be interested in you defining what an authentic Taoist system is. What's it's goals are. And how they are superior to what Max teaches.

 

From what I can gather it is the simplicity of what Max teaches that might give people problems. People love complexity. And if it isn't really complex with a hundred different levels and your teacher having to show you a new position every week it's bs to some people.

 

I think the way Max is presenting his system is very liberating because he is saying all you need are 2 simple practices(3 if you include standing) and the transmission and your set. You are your own teacher and have all the tools you need.

 

I can see how humans end up throwing away simplicity. It's as if it doesn't look like some complicated technology that has to be updated every week it's bogus. What if awakening was much simpler than you could imagine and just took dedicated practice of 2 effortless meditations? It's atleast worth taking a look at.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[Cameron]

This is definetly a man thread and not suitable for a polite english woman

 

I wonder why we don't get more feedback from gals on here with charming threads like this. LOL.

[Jakara]

Jakara,

 

I am curious what do you consider a "complete Taoist system"?

 

A "complete" daoist system, in my opinion, ususally comprises of Meditation, Alchemy, Yoga, Dream Practice and Ritual.

 

The way kunlun has been described it is a fast way of removing that which is not needed. To me, Kunlun sounds very in line with practices like zazen or Taoist sitting and forgetting just works very quickly. I don't think kunlun is the end all be all of qigong, nei kung, Tao or whatever we are calling it. I am pretty sure Max doesn't teach that.

 

You aren't claiming anything ourtrageous there, fine.

 

The most I have heard Max say is the Kunlun and another practice he teaches called Red Phoenix can lead you to something called "Golden Dragon Body" which he says is the highest spiritual state a human being can achieve.

 

Ive never heard of the "golden dragon body". So I can't comment on that.

 

So, I would be interested in you defining what an authentic Taoist system is. What's it's goals are. And how they are superior to what Max teaches.

 

I haven't offered another system, "superior" or otherwise. It is my understanding that practices stop becoming goal oriented in taoism quite early on.

 

From what I can gather it is the simplicity of what Max teaches that might give people problems. People love complexity. And if it isn't really complex with a hundred different levels and your teacher having to show you a new position every week it's bs to some people.

 

Im all for simplicity, there are many systems out there that are all about simplicity, including the Tao Te Ching itself. I have no problem with them, they aren't clamining anything that isn't true.

 

I think the way Max is presenting his system is very liberating because he is saying all you need are 2 simple practices(3 if you include standing) and the transmission and your set. You are your own teacher and have all the tools you need.

 

You need the book, the transmission and the workshops, doesn't seem very self sufficient to me, however simple the practices are. If we are our own teachers, why would we buy any of Max's stuff.

 

I can see how humans end up throwing away simplicity. It's as if it doesn't look like some complicated technology that has to be updated every week it's bogus. What if awakening was much simpler than you could imagine and just took dedicated practice of 2 effortless meditations? It's atleast worth taking a look at.

 

Engrossment in technology and its mind-set is just another trance state. Simplicity is fine, there are many simple systems out there that don't claim bogus things.

[voidisyinyang]

Well not to rain on the Kunlun parade but true samadhi means you no longer sense your body because it's so full of electromagnetic energy. So any talk about full-lotus in a physical sense is still just at a "beginners" level. This true samadhi -- nirvakalpi samadhi -- is explained in Christopher Isherwood's book on Pantajali's yoga sutra. Or you can read Master Nan, Huai-chin's books which will explain the difference between true samadhi and the physical sensations in detail. As a Monk Master Nan is not allowed to give details of what he experiences while in true samadhi but both he and qigong Master Chunyi Lin have stated you can see the stars during the day. Whether that means you travel into space or not....

 

Anyway before true samadhi is achieved most modern people (like myself) FALL BACK INTO WORLDLINESS as Master Nan, Huai-chin details -- because of HEROIC OVER-EXUBERANCE to use Master Nan, Huai-chin's words. Before nirvakalpi samadhi is achieved the strong electromagnetic fields emanating from the pineal gland enable telepathy, telekinesis and precognition. I had these abilities in a strong way after doing an 8 day "bigu" training (just half a glass of water and lots of small universe, tai-chi, and full-lotus).

 

Before nirvakalpi samadhi is achieved a vortex of spacetime spins around the body, while in full-lotus. This freaked me out a bit. When a student of Sri Chimnoy asked about this Chimnoy responded: "oh that's just the cosmic energy." But then Peter Kingsley's book "In the Dark Places of Wisdom" details how the ancient Greeks even knew about this necessary vortex experience. http://peterkingsley.com.

 

The best detailed analysis of this training is the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality." Right before true samadhi is achieved "immortal breathing" occurs (chapter 10) -- which is probably the type of breathing referred to in conjunction with the golden Dragon body. I achieved "immortal breathing" for a few days -- during my 8 day bigu training. It's deeper than fetus breathing. Immortal breathing means the main acupressure points of the hands and feet actually transduce oxygen through electromagnetic pulsations while the lungs no longer need to contract.

 

Sri Yuketswar, the guru of Yogananda's "Autiobiography of a Yogi," calls this true samadhi state:

 

BREATHLESS ECSTASY.

 

Have fun grasshoppers.

[Buddy]

"Your an idiot Cam u dont know the 1st thing about max and his past or training, his teachers you never met, people that know him you never met (apart chris)."

 

This seems unnecessary.

[sheng zhen]

I dont doubt it works well, as ive said many times just the way its used to get people in i hate!

 

Im looking forwards to giving it a test the only problem is i dont know if ill be able to feel the differences if i still do my other practice before hand or i might try doing before my practice?

 

Sheng Zhen do you only do Kunlun, whats your background?

 

WYG

I think you will have a problem in feeling the differences if you do other systems, but you certainly will not have any trouble feeling the negative effects of mixing practices I did that for a while and got really dizzy, fucked up digestion, and generally wasnt feeling well at all. It all stopped when I stopped all other practices.

 

And please, dont forget to do kunlun with a "beginners mind", not the analytical mind. Otherwise you wont really get into it. Forget all knowledge and experience you have and just dive into it and see what happens. Im shure you will have great fun and laugh a lot!

 

Or, a second thought, dont take my word for it... try it both ways and report back to us what you've experienced My experience has been that it works a lot better with the beginners mind than the analytical experienced mind. I dont need to have blind faith and trust Mantra when he say these things, I know it is true. But still, I think it is better to do the "wrong" things and get your own experience, than to blindly follow any teachers words(unless ofcourse it is a teacher you have a deep connection to).

 

I dont do kunlun at the moment because I want to check out other things before I decide what I want to dedicate my time to. But for 4 of the 5 months I only did kunlun.

 

As for my background it might be called western spirituality. You know, the kind where you take everythng from taoist, buddhist, gnostic, jewish, egyptian, shamanistic, and so on, and mix it all together in one big soup.

[xenolith]

Ya know dude, it is REAL easy to answer all of the questions that have been driving you crazy by trying it yourself.

 

That is what the intelligent, curious people do. They rely on their own experience. Everyone else who has, now knows.

 

It's so good. You'll probably never know, though.

 

I certainly can't provide the experience for you with this keyboard, so It's probably best that you quit flinging your jing demanding answers that can only be found through direct experience.

Chris, nothing is driving me crazy. I have a practice that leaves me wanting for naught. Thus Kunlun or any other practice holds little potential value for me. But I may try Kunlun someday for the reasons you articulated. I am inquisitive...not sure about curious.

 

My ONLY objection to Kunlun is the specific claim made on the website of enlightenment, also described as union with the Tao or something similar. I've asked you before for an explanation of how Kunlun practice achieves this and your reply described, to paraphrase, "feeling like flying". That sounds fun. But seems more related to feeling lighter than to enlightenment.

 

I've looked keenly for reports of anything remotely sounding like enlightenment from members of this Forum. Haven't found any. Simply put, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the claim of enlightenment for Kunlun appears to be false advertising.

 

So, again, simply put, I strongly suggest, in the interest of integrity, that either some accounting for HOW enlightenment is achieved by Kunlun practice or stop advertising that it does that.

 

BTW, I don't appreciate the rude tone. I'm not demanding anything, I'm politely commenting. The flinging jing thing is just mean.

[sean]

Xeno, where have you ever seen a proper explanation of how anything achieves enlightenment? My view at least is that enlightenment defies causality so your request is a catch-22. It's like saying "show me this God of yours!"

 

StarJumper, You seem like a bright guy with a lot of experience but Trunk is right, your analysis is just way off. Like, embarrassingly off. This is to be expected though when critiquing a practice without:

 

1) Knowledge of what the actual practice is, as described by teacher (duh?)

2) Knowledge of the teacher's background or masters

3) Any experience whatsoever with the teacher or the transmission

4) Experience with the actual practice (as opposed to what you imagine practice is)

 

The fact that you are missing not just 1 but all 4 of these and yet you would still participate so boldly in your assertions about Kunlun just really undermines your credibility and says, to me, that you have an agenda here unrelated to honestly discovering the truth.

 

Jakara, transmission is an ancient concept, google shaktipat. In the past you had to surrender your entire life to the guru for it. $300 is practically free in the real context, please re-read Trunk's post on the finances. You bring up an interesting point about bad science. I am pretty sensitive to this as well. It's like I can overlook all kinds of weird spiritual stuff in a presentation but when I see far out claims that are typically within the domain of verifiable science, red flags do go off. It's a valid concern regarding elements of the presentation. I think with any teacher/path you will have to deal with things that are outside of your worldview or that you just simply don't agree with. Each of us has to decide where we draw the lines. I say, trust your intuition, if Max throws up too many red flags for you there is your answer.

 

Wun Yuen Gong, welcome to day 1 of your own personal 14 day Tao Bums fast. Next time will be permanent. I'm sick of telling you the rules, no insults. Period. You've completely run out of slack here.

 

 

Sean

[voidisyinyang]

Kunlun:

 

[sean]

Kunlun:

 

WOW. Thank you.

 

And thank you for Anuradha Paudwal.

 

Blessings,

Sean

[sheng zhen]

Kunlun:

 

hahaha, my god I got a culture trauma! I watched the whole thing waiting for someone to shake, bounce or have eppileptic sesiours, and nothing happened other than this weird music and smiling girls.

 

Didnt understand the connection to kunlun...

[xenolith]

Xeno, where have you ever seen a proper explanation of how anything achieves enlightenment?

I've explained how SKF and the CCOs that result from its mastery achieve it several times here on the Forum. As recently as yesterday.

 

Your comment is well made though sean. And I do realize that understanding of a mechanism need not necessarily accompany experience of something which results from operation of that mechanism. Lest Chris not realize it, "I don't know how" is a perfectly acceptable response to my inquiry. I'm simply interested in the Truth.

[Smile]

It's obvious there is a miscommunication here.

 

Claims like "most powerful teachings and techniques for spiritual development ever taught on Earth" or "one hour of this practice equals 100 years of any other practice" are very bold. Thus, we will always have people come here and question them. Any practitioner who has a little bit of wisdom will laugh at the whole thing because they know it doesn't work this way. Every internal method of cultivation will eventually fall into a foundation of principles that are the same when you do them the proper way. Then you have to take into the account person's destiny, karma and type of spiritual practice that is more suitable for them to be successful. Buddha said once that there are 10,000 afflictions and 10,000 methods to overcome them.

 

Kunlun method is a good practice and a lot of people will benefit from it. It's obviously not for everyone and a lot of people will quit practicing kunlun (just like any other practice) and move on to something else. We have to see for ourselves if we are drawn to it. It maybe well worth it, just like for many, many people. But we can't delude ourselves into thinking we can cut corners in spiritual cultivation without building the foundation first. Try building a house without a foundation and will see what happen overtime.

 

What is the foundation? Pure mind cultivated through stillness meditation, virtuous way of life of being kind and meritorious to any sentient being, and therefore, accumulated wisdom so your are clear on what path to take.

 

As I stated before, practicing 3 levels of Kunlun will eventually set up the conditions where you can naturally shift into mind cultivation effortlessly. This is a big thing, for most people can't go into stillness meditation straight on without any preparations. But like with any other practices that does that, we have to put time in it and practice every day.

 

Will it bring enlightenment? It's an impossible question to answer. Those who can see The Mt. Everest of karma will laugh at it. I would say it's all up to you but, then, can you see the Whitewater River of destiny is dragging you somewhere else? Can you overcome the pull? If you said Yes, you may also believe you can take a shower under Niagara Falls.

It's not so simple, and that's why Masters of all traditions talk about merit all the time. It's not just about the practice. It's about the way of life.

 

M.

[Cameron]

Great post Smile.

 

I think alot of what people are ranting about post after post was summed up in that first paragraph.

 

Claims like "most powerful teachings and techniques for spiritual development ever taught on Earth" or "one hour of this practice equals 100 years of any other practice" are very bold. Thus, we will always have people come here and question them. Any practitioner who has a little bit of wisdom will laugh at the whole thing because they know it doesn't work this way. Every internal method of cultivation will eventually fall into a foundation of principles that are the same when you do them the proper way. Then you have to take into the account person's destiny, karma and type of spiritual practice that is more suitable for them to be successful. Buddha said once that there are 10,000 afflictions and 10,000 methods to overcome them.

[宁]

Nice, Smile, you sure have a different energy now... was good, and now better...

Listen, I can understand people go over their heads with this practice, but keeping the proper view, as you say,

is essential...

No matter what you do, if you dont know where to look, it doesnt show up... if you dont know how to look, you will miss it... and more important, if you dont know when to look (being properly prepared, foundation and merits etc), well it wont even matter...

 

Welcome back

[Guest winpro07]

There are many samadhis. What took several days of fasting, and 26 hours of intense practice in another system manifested in a few minutes in kunlun. The loss of worldly awareness is a small thing that happens nightly now. When the pillar forms awareness of self continues but in a different body. What all critics leave out is Divine consciousness, the Mother, Shakti, Dakini She is our guide (at least for males) Divine will governs all motion in practice. As we yield to her grace, false self falls away. The physical body is transmuted in these events becoming something more like light. Its grossness fails, as the weight of mind is lifted. Even in waking hours everything is clearly different. Telepathy, and precognition are normal human ability that sleeping people do not see. though with telepathy it takes two-to-tango. A friend journeyed with to the last seminar. She had no prior experience with such things. The whirling energy around her body started with her first practice, and has increased daily since. Her opening is absolutely beautiful -wish someone else could see this. KunLun/Tansmission/Practice have yielded a thousand Huge changes, and in many others. All of these changes are permanent. This would be my Support to any interested...Its PERMANENT. The practice described at the beginning of this post resulted in nirvakalpi samadi -a TEMPORARY form of it. HEROIC OVER EXUBERANCE was definitely in me , but is not what stopped a complete merger into it. Not seeing what Max 'is' means not 'seeing'. My self a veteran who had to give up everything in order to begin, being past up at light speed by a beginner with absolutely no experience..... Was it something she ate? I think not. There are mostly male naysayers on this site. The Dakini understand more immediately what this is and are willing to trust to their own nature.....TRUST! thats it eh? the problem is trust!

Well not to rain on the Kunlun parade but true samadhi means you no longer sense your body because it's so full of electromagnetic energy. So any talk about full-lotus in a physical sense is still just at a "beginners" level. This true samadhi -- nirvakalpi samadhi -- is explained in Christopher Isherwood's book on Pantajali's yoga sutra. Or you can read Master Nan, Huai-chin's books which will explain the difference between true samadhi and the physical sensations in detail. As a Monk Master Nan is not allowed to give details of what he experiences while in true samadhi but both he and qigong Master Chunyi Lin have stated you can see the stars during the day. Whether that means you travel into space or not....

 

Anyway before true samadhi is achieved most modern people (like myself) FALL BACK INTO WORLDLINESS as Master Nan, Huai-chin details -- because of HEROIC OVER-EXUBERANCE to use Master Nan, Huai-chin's words. Before nirvakalpi samadhi is achieved the strong electromagnetic fields emanating from the pineal gland enable telepathy, telekinesis and precognition. I had these abilities in a strong way after doing an 8 day "bigu" training (just half a glass of water and lots of small universe, tai-chi, and full-lotus).

 

Before nirvakalpi samadhi is achieved a vortex of spacetime spins around the body, while in full-lotus. This freaked me out a bit. When a student of Sri Chimnoy asked about this Chimnoy responded: "oh that's just the cosmic energy." But then Peter Kingsley's book "In the Dark Places of Wisdom" details how the ancient Greeks even knew about this necessary vortex experience. http://peterkingsley.com.

 

The best detailed analysis of this training is the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality." Right before true samadhi is achieved "immortal breathing" occurs (chapter 10) -- which is probably the type of breathing referred to in conjunction with the golden Dragon body. I achieved "immortal breathing" for a few days -- during my 8 day bigu training. It's deeper than fetus breathing. Immortal breathing means the main acupressure points of the hands and feet actually transduce oxygen through electromagnetic pulsations while the lungs no longer need to contract.

 

Sri Yuketswar, the guru of Yogananda's "Autiobiography of a Yogi," calls this true samadhi state:

 

BREATHLESS ECSTASY.

 

Have fun grasshoppers.

[Cameron]

I think what Smile was saying is someone like you might have a strong affinity for Kunlun. Same for several others on the board. While some others might do Kunlun and not think it is anything special. The idea that one method is the best for all or that your system is the best system is pretty silly.

 

I like kunlun and will give it atleast this year to really see how deeply I can go with it but I don't know that it is the best practice for anyone else. That's up to you to decide.

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah that's the TRANSMISSION. Qigong Master Chunyi Lin made my 3rd Eye permanently opened but sticking his finger to my forehead -- after I had done the bigu fast. He had previously tried to open up my 3rd Eye using his 3rd Eye, after he left the room to go into deeper meditation. He didn't tell me and the middle of my brain starting burning up! haha. Too strong. His assistant qigong master Jim Nance did the same thing to me -- after a class one night. The following week he pulled me into the hallway before class: "Did you feel anything?" He didn't say what he was referring to but it clarified the last week's post-class conversation. "I'm going to keep sitting in full-lotus, upstairs." Jim said to me. I answered: "Can I join you?" He says: "Well maybe later on." So I bike home, dumpster dive some bagels, go into full-lotus and my brain starts frying. The center of my brain is so filled with energy that I stopped practicing. I realized it was stronger than my own energy but forgot about it over the week, until Jim pulled me aside at the next class. Without saying what he was referring to, just asking me "Did you feel anything?," I suddenly remembered what had happened after the last class and just looked at him, my eyes aghast! haha.

[Guest winpro07]

The mind fears missing the boat. The Divine created the boat, and steers it up stream. Is it fear, or mind that makes us late??

Nice, Smile, you sure have a different energy now... was good, and now better...

Listen, I can understand people go over their heads with this practice, but keeping the proper view, as you say,

is essential...

No matter what you do, if you dont know where to look, it doesnt show up... if you dont know how to look, you will miss it... and more important, if you dont know when to look (being properly prepared, foundation and merits etc), well it wont even matter...

 

Welcome back

Edited January 13, 2008 by winpro07

[mantis]

dumpster diving.... ?

[Cameron]

I think Smile is saying to do any spiritual practice without emphasis on developong an overall virtuous lifestyle is sort of like playing this game.

 

aLrWwmnt2po&feature=related

[AugustLeo]

.