Is KunLun Bogus?

[Smile]

I think Smile is saying to do any spiritual practice without emphasis on developong an overall virtuous lifestyle is sort of like playing this game...

No Cam, it's more like watching this video :

 

1tdXnUMmY1Y

[AugustLeo]

.

[Yoda]

Taobums was originally set up to be completely independent of any one school and I think that our affiliation is too close right now, but balance will be restored soon enough.

 

Nice to hear from Max again!

 

-Yoda

[Mantra68]

Kunlun:

 

No. This is Kunlun:

 

[seadog]

No. This is Kunlun:

 

 

yeaaaaaaah

[Guest winpro07]

Cool stuff

No. This is Kunlun:

 

[SiliconValley]

Taobums was originally set up to be completely independent of any one school and I think that our affiliation is too close right now, but balance will be restored soon enough.

 

 

Yeah hope that happens soon!!!!! Probably the solution is having a Kunlun forum soon and a specific thread there where a set goes on shouting against Kunlun without actually knowing anything about it and another set can continue to defend the same which is quite unnecessary if the practice can speak for itself.

Edited January 13, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Yoda]

sweet Kunlun clip, Chris!!!!!

 

 

Not Kunlun, but apropos of the Kunlun wars:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0&feature=related

[Jakara]

Since I started the thread Im posting my final comment on the subject. There is only one of me and many kunlun followers on this forum and therefore the thread has been flooded by posts of kunlun followers. Ive presented what I wanted to present and don't think its constructive to have to reiterate the same points that are being ignored.

 

For those who are reading and still wondering and have a logical or remotely scientific background, check the evidence I presented throughout the thread and decide for yourself. None of the evidence can be logically disputed and all attempts to argue against it are done by side-lining the issues being questioned. I have my answer and am satisfied, I hope the evidence helps your own decision either way.

 

Jak

[Bum Grasshopper]

Thanks for the video Smile. Guess I have to start my 100 days over again!

[Mal]

For those who are reading and still wondering and have a logical or remotely scientific background, check the evidence I presented throughout the thread and decide for yourself.

 

Hi Jak,

 

Thanks for trying, I understand it must be very frustrating. I have a BA in Psychology and have been trained in the application of the scientific method, as have many people here on the 'bums.

 

But I have no desire to argue the clams of Kunlun, I like the method regardless.

[Guest winpro07]

..

Edited March 19, 2009 by winpro07

[Mantra68]

From Jakara' date='Jan 11 2008, 11:56 AM post='48497' (the post that started this discussion)

 

Even though many of these issues have been addressed and answered, I will oblige you. My answers are in red.

 

"Max Christensen is not out to make money, the teachings are free. You are your own teacher, you can do it by yourself."

 

- The book costs $15, which is not an unreasonable price for a book, but this part is what gets me...

 

Website:

 

NOTE: This book is a great way to familiarize yourself with Kunlun, but to get the most from your practice you must have the ability transferred to you by Lama Dorje(!). Then you can perform the exercises to unlock what you have been given. This is best used as a companion to the seminars.

 

- So I cant really learn from the book and practice effectively. The seminars (which cost $300 each) are an essential part of the program, along with the "initiation" so really im not my own teacher. Taking these into account it only takes 20 or so people to make $6000 for 4 hours work - 1 seminar.

 

You can learn from the book and have a lot of success. It comes down to how much you can let go and fall into the feeling and then allow the feeling to guide you through your own internal world.

 

If you want to go all of the way as in tradition, you would receive the transfer which connects you with the lineage. The masters of the lineage then help you with your evolution.

 

Many here have experienced this already.

 

Also, seminars are two days (8 hours of instruction), plus a free lecture the night before. $300 is not a lot of money for what you are getting. Some people pay a hell of a lot more for shit information. These are the highest practices of their respective systems, really.

 

Putting on a seminar isn't free, and no one makes you go. There is a significant overhead with all of the travel, lodging, meeting room rental, bookstore rental, vehicle rental, food, gas, employee wages, etc. so it can't be free. Sorry.

 

We haven't had anyone yet who has been to a seminar, complain about the price. They know the value of what they've received. Many consider it priceless.

 

"Max does not want followers:"

 

- Then why create a system, write a book on it, make a website on it, do seminars on it and publicise it on the radio?

 

To share it with the world. It is a practice that empowers people so that they don't need a teacher. They become their own teacher. That's the "no follower" part.

 

Also, Max didn't create the Kunlun system, it already existed for hundreds of years. Max was able to bring the divided elements of the root practice back together though with Kunlun and Red Phoenix, to offer the complete system. Kunlun had one part, Mao Shan had the other. The two groups don't historically get along.

 

"The results actually work, bliss can be felt, just try the practice for yourself!"

 

- I have to pay money to try this practice, get initiationand travel to seminars. I can achieve a state of bliss by manipulating my body in certain ways, but this isn't enlightenment. Many have reported bliss feeling, im not questioning that, but feeling bliss is not part of the daoist tradition, it creates attachment to feelings.

 

Here is another way you can learn: Travel to China, find someone who will translate for you (and travel with you) as you search for a teacher who has this system. Become accepted by the teacher (if you are white you better have a damn bright aura or forget it). Spend years going through their tests. Master their tests. Then pray that they find you worthy enough to leak the first hint of how to do Kunlun properly.

 

Then you could continue to travel until you find a Mao Shan sorcerer who is willing to part with the highest practice in their system (Red Phoenix)... I'll stop this scenario here because anyone who knows anything about Mao Shan knows that there is no way in hell you will get a thing from them.

 

Golden Flower? You won't find the key to that either. A lot of info, but not the key.

 

I hope you are getting my point.

 

The fact is that you cannot otherwise find these teachings anywhere. Whole armies died for the Golden Flower alone. Most Chinese don't think Westerners can or should do these practices.

 

Fortunately, Max's teachers liked him and recognized him from past connections, so they shared practices with him that they didn't even give to their own children, knowing that he would share them with the West. These arts are dying out in China. The government forbids these things from being taught and many masters are being eliminated, once found.

 

Feeling bliss is feeling the divine. It's very nature is bliss and void. Attachment to the feeling is discouraged but nature takes care of this by itself because it becomes more subtle and refined with time. Opening to the Tao and your true nature is the ultimate objective.

 

Scientific claims:

 

"Practitioner will continue to do Level I practice in Level II. The purpose of this level is to generate and circulate magnetic energy through the body. When the energy is at its highest, magnetic power is able to flow through the body. "

 

- Have you taken a hall probe to measure this effect and verify it is magnetic? Its easily insertable into various cavaties of the human body to make internal measurments of magnetic fields.

 

The Chinese government in Beijing have a device that can measure this. It different from an electronically produced field.

 

Make a chi ball between your palms and while you can feel the magnetic field ask yourself if you think the energy is a typical kind of magnetic energy.

 

"Technically, a black hole absorbs matter into a rotating vortex of magnetic energy. However, a black hole also emits waves and particles into space. One can use this form of energy for his personal awakening.

 

This form of radiation from the "black hole" is called ultraviolet-three and is only found in the depth of space, or in objects such as meteorites. This radiation does not travel through the earth because of the earth's protective magnetic field will not allow ultraviolet-three to penetrate to the earth's surface."

 

- Where is the evidence for this? Conveniently we can't find a black hole to test it. Theres no such thing as ultraviolet-three radiation. How do you know its found in meteorites, have you opened one up? Even if it can't penetrate the Earth's surface, why haven't satellite based instruments detected it?

 

Refer to past articles of Scientific American. They discuss it there.

 

"Celestial Chi Gung is a sitting meditation that allows one to tap into the energy of the universe via black hole. "

 

- I doubt that was the explanation given by the ancient masters who invented it.

 

They referred to these points as the "dark light." It's the same concept. A powerfully attracting cool radiance. They discovered a way to pull the power from a vacuum.

 

"As you become more clear, you become more magnetic. "

 

- Should I worry about metal objects flying randomly towards me as I ascend towards enlightenment?

 

Only if you are playing in traffic.

 

"The video samples show people being affected by Max's energy. Can this energy be applied to anybody?

Nothing is being done without people's permission. In fact, if someone is consciously aware of this type of energy being directed at them they can usually close themselves to it."

 

- This is a typical trick proven with modern psychological methods. You have to believe you are going to be manipulated and then you are. If you don't belive nothing happens. Theres no mystical energy involved here.

 

This energy can be applied to anybody who has opened up their energetic system. That is why a lot of first timers who have done lots of chi gung or Reiki or other energy work, respond so quickly. The same reason women respond quicker than men. Women are more open than men, in general.

 

The fun part is during seminars when you come up from behind someone and start to transfer the energy. They have no idea you are there but yet they still respond. I did this all morning today.

 

"These can be proven scientifically. Quantum physicsists understand but can't apply it. There's free energy"

 

We are referring to the internal application of quantum physics. Tapping the "zero-point" vacuum points (bindus) in the body to awaken dormant abilities (siddhas) and become more able to dissolve into the divine (Gold Dragon Body). This is currently happening for many Kunlun practitioners and we have a few who are at the Gold Dragon level.

 

What is at the center of a black hole? The sun? The three dan tiens?

 

A vacuum.

 

How do you get the energy from a vacuum? Ancient Chinese secret...

 

My apologies if I seem over cynical, its not my intention to cause an argument or insult anyone, but there should be some questions given the amount of people on this forum asking about these methods.

 

As I said most of these questions have already been answered over the past six months if you'll check, but when I have the time I will try to answer whatever questions I can.

 

Hope this helps.

[SiliconValley]

These are the highest practices of their respective systems really.

 

I hope what you mean, again, is that what Max teaches in these seminars, are what he thinks are the highest among the various techniques he knows. That would sound more reasonable and less imposing.

Edited January 14, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Mantra68]

I hope what you mean, again, is that what Max teaches in these seminars, are what he thinks are the highest among the various techniques he knows. That would sound more reasonable and less imposing.

Actually, the leaders of the clans he got these practices from told him that these are the highest practices in their systems.

 

Max's teacher was Andrew Lum whose teacher was the grand master of Mao Shan. His name was Lum Dai Young. He was famous in Hawaii for his siddhas. He started the Gee Yung school in Hawaii.

 

All martial art masters in Hawaii know of these masters. Red Phoenix is the family tradition that leads to Gold Dragon.

 

Max spent 29 years with the Lum family to receive this.

 

Andrew Lum is well known in the Hawaiian and Chinese circles as a traditional Shang Ching (Mao Shan) Taoist.

 

Lum Dai Young is kneeling in center. Andrew Lum (Max's Sifu) is a young boy standing to the left of him.

 

(Just a little more background for those of you who need to know).

Edited January 14, 2008 by Mantra68

[Cameron]

Wow, thanks for the extra info Chris.

 

Would it be fair to say Max has spent more time in the Mao Shan clan than any of the other systems he has studied(29 years)?

 

Or does his direct connection with other high level teachers carry that same sort of weight(many years of training in an authentic Taoist lineage).

 

It's amazing how he is deeply connected with Mao Shan, Kunlun, Wudang, Egypt, Tibet etc etc. It seems you would almost have to have a strong connection to past lives just to be able to do that. My guess is most practitioners would have their hands full with just one system, whether Tibet, Taoist, Buddhist or whatever.

 

So Max has brought us the best practices from some of the highest systems and combining them makes them even better.

 

Almost seems like we are spoiled

[Starjumper]

Edited January 14, 2008 by Starjumper7

[AugustLeo]

.

[dakini]

Very interesting, yes. We all go on detours, don't we. It's one of the real ways of learning.

 

I hope someone will describe the Red Phoenix posture for me so that I may analyze it's aspects for you.

 

Thanks,

Starjumper Extraordinaire.

Why do you want to analyze the posture? The posture doesn't matter. Results matter. Tell me about results and I might care.

 

Why are you so insistent on bashing a practice you have never tried. Maybe you have done things that are similar and maybe you are an expert at those practices, but you obviously have no knowledge of kunlun.

[Starjumper]

Edited January 14, 2008 by Starjumper7

[rain]

...............

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[Starjumper]

This strife is making me feel ill.

 

StarJumper, You seem like a bright guy with a lot of experience but Trunk is right, your analysis is just way off. Like, embarrassingly off. This is to be expected though when critiquing a practice without:

 

1) Knowledge of what the actual practice is, as described by teacher (duh?)

2) Knowledge of the teacher's background or masters

3) Any experience whatsoever with the teacher or the transmission

4) Experience with the actual practice (as opposed to what you imagine practice is)

 

The fact that you are missing not just 1 but all 4 of these and yet you would still participate so boldly in your assertions about Kunlun just really undermines your credibility and says, to me, that you have an agenda here unrelated to honestly discovering the truth.

 

That may be true, I was trying to get more info.

 

His scientific explanation is a big slap in the face as far as insults to the intelligence goes.

 

He puts out many lies, Smile pointed out a couple but there are many, including what he claims about transmission. If you want spiritual teacher like that then fine, good luck.

 

I wish you the best on your path. Here's something Chuang Tzu wrote about Max:

 

The Tower of the Spirit

 

The spirit has an impregnable tower

Which no danger can disturb

As long as the tower is guarded

By the invisible Protector

Who acts unconsciously, and whose actions

Go astray when they become deliberate

Reflective, and intentional.

 

The unconsciousness

And entire sincerity of Tao

Are disturbed by any effort

At self-conscious demonstration

All such demonstrations

Are lies.

 

When one displays himself

In this ambiguous way

The world outside storms in

And imprisons him.

 

He is no longer protected

By the sincerity of Tao.

 

Each new act

Is a new failure.

 

If his acts are done in public,

In broad daylight,

He will be punished by men.

If they are done in private

And in secret,

They will be punished

By spirits.

 

Let each one understand

The meaning of sincerity

And guard against display!

 

He will be at peace

With men and spirits

And will act rightly, unseen,

In his own solitude,

In the tower of the spirit.

 

-from The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

Edited January 14, 2008 by Starjumper7

[rain]

This strife is making me feel ill.

That may be true, I was trying to get more info.

 

His scientific explanation is a big slap in the face as far as far as insults to the intelligence goes.

 

Both Buddy and I, who know real nei kung well, dissaprove of him

 

He puts out many lies, Smile pointed out a couple but there are many, including what he claims about transmission. If you want spiritual teacher who is such a big liar then fine, good luck.

 

I wish you the best on your path. Here's something Chuang Tzu wrote about Max:

 

The Tower of the Spirit

 

The spirit has an impregnable tower

Which no danger can disturb

As long as the tower is guarded

By the invisible Protector

Who acts unconsciously, and whose actions

Go astray when they become deliberate

Reflective, and intentional.

 

The unconsciousness

And entire sincerity of Tao

Are disturbed by any effort

At

"

All such demonstrations

Are lies.

 

When one displays himself

In this ambiguous way

The world outside storms in

And imprisons him.

 

He is no longer protected

By the sincerity of Tao.

 

Each new act

Is a new failure.

 

If his acts are done in public,

In broad daylight,

He will be punished by men.

If they are done in private

And in secret,

They will be punished

By spirits.

 

Let each one understand

The meaning of sincerity

And guard against display!

 

He will be at peace

With men and spirits

And will act rightly, unseen,

In his own solitude,

In the tower of the spirit.

 

-from The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

 

 

please do feel better.

 

your words have impact.

 

please define;

"self-conscious demonstration"

Edited January 14, 2008 by rain

[Mantra68]

This strife is making me feel ill.

Humbling isn't it?

Edited January 14, 2008 by Mantra68

[三江源]

.

Edited July 21, 2014 by cat