RIP Boy Scouts

[Wu Ming Jen]

On 10/14/2017 at 9:40 PM, sagebrush said:

wondering why the Brownies got overlooked?

Seriously you had to bring this up. Do you know how many boy scouts got kicked out for eating brownies.

Lets just overlook this subject for now.

 

I was in the cub scouts and I liked it, I did not know the difference of boys and girls to me we were all the same.  I was not old enough to know or care what sex was.Now older at the temple I am surrounded by center people we all dress the same and besides some facial hair it is difficult to tell gender and not necessary. I call my dress a robe and it is very comfortable.

 

The identification process of gender is started at a very young age in many cultures by adults that know what the act of sex is and the rigid demands,function in society depending on if you have a penise or boobs.

 

The inequality and role playing is reinforced by the current social standards of the culture The rebellion is this forced identity placed on young people. We can all play with the same toys,truck, doll, gun,easy bake oven.

 

Confusion is confused when things are out of balance It is not the kids that are confused it is the culture that is confused. Maybe the kids can break out of this forced control and expectation of a person's physiology and embrace the real function of joining yin and yang in any physical  form. 

 

[Kar3n]

24 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

 

Why not just allow them learn about themselves and understand their own limits and fears in their own unique way.

The idea of "do things the way boys do them" is already a failure point to start from.   

I have a son and daughters. Regardless of what people choose to believe, boys and girls are different in a myrid of ways and not acknowledging it and lumping them together because someone feels entitled is a disservice.

 

You have edited to add, "they are not "boys"  does not mean they can not do the same things, test themselves within their own gender." 

 

Please be clear, in no way am I saying or implying that girls are not capable of any activities. GSA and BSA  are gender specific programs. Each activity has corresponding curriculum, some of it is gender neutral, a lot of it is not and for that reason I believe allowing mixed troops nullifies the intended purpose of the organizations.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Kar3n

[windwalker]

6 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

The identification process of gender is started at a very young age in many cultures by adults that know what the act of sex is and the rigid demands,function in society depending on if you have a penise or boobs.

 

 

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

 

[Marblehead]

I like where he equated Chi to Life Force.

 

 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Kar3n said:

I have a son and daughters. Regardless of what people choose to believe, boys and girls are different in a myrid of ways and not acknowledging it and lumping them together because someone feels entitled is a disservice.

 

You have edited to add, "they are not "boys"  does not mean they can not do the same things, test themselves within their own gender." 

 

Please be clear, in no way am I saying or implying that girls are not capable of any activities. GSA and BSA  are gender specific programs. Each activity has corresponding curriculum, some of it is gender neutral, a lot of it is not and for that reason I believe allowing mixed troops nullifies the intended purpose of the organizations.

 

 

 

 

In your opinion , whats the intended purpose? was it successful? and does it impact in unintended ways, which are potentially detrimental ? ( Such as reinforce gender expectations and transfer them to girls so that they have no interest in science, but instead consider themselves potentially  fit to compete in the baking of cookies)

Edited October 17, 2017 by Stosh

[Kar3n]

12 minutes ago, Stosh said:

In your opinion , whats the intended purpose? was it successful? and does it impact in unintended ways, which are potentially detrimental ? ( Such as reinforce gender expectations and transfer them to girls so that they have no interest in science, but instead consider themselves potentially  fit to compete in the baking of cookies)

The intended purpose of Girl Scouts is to empower young girls to be whatever they want to be, to help them to realize their potential beyond cookies.

 

Based on my experience, the only detriment to either program are the leaders of the troops and the methods they will or will not employ to teach the curriculum.

[Stosh]

18 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

The intended purpose of Girl Scouts is to empower young girls to be whatever they want to be, to help them to realize their potential beyond cookies.

 

Based on my experience, the only detriment to either program are the leaders of the troops and the methods they will or will not employ to teach the curriculum.

You said the mixed group might nullify the ability of the group to teach the curriculum , and what about being "anything" they want to be , would having boys in there prevent? What is the impediment?

Edited October 17, 2017 by Stosh

[Kar3n]

18 minutes ago, Stosh said:

You said the mixed group might nullify the ability of the group to teach the curriculum , and what about being "anything" they want to be , would having boys in there prevent?

Yes, I did. 

 

I think it would get quite uncomfortable for boys and girls to sit in a meeting discussing how to deal with your period while on a camping trip. These programs are about empowerment and leadership, not about creating an environment where children are put into situations that make them self-conscious and uneasy because the topic does not apply to them.

 

Most of the lessons are the same, the discussions surrounding them can be quite different.

 

 

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, Kar3n said:

Yes, I did. 

 

I think it would get quite uncomfortable for boys and girls to sit in a meeting discussing how to deal with your period while on a camping trip. These programs are about empowerment and leadership, not about creating an environment where children are put into situations that make them self-conscious and uneasy because the topic does not apply to them.

 

 

  Ok that's a fair statement.  But discussing menstruation isn't teaching leadership , or " how to be anything one wants to be".

If BES wants to roughhouse climb trees shoot arrows with the boys,  I think its great.

Its fostering her to engage in things outside girl subjects and relate to the other half,  rather than cloister her away to contemplate her period. 

Like wise for the boys , I think more relationships with the girls may broaden their view of the feminine perspective , rather than objectify. 

 

[Kar3n]

5 minutes ago, Stosh said:

  Ok that's a fair statement.  But discussing menstruation isn't teaching leadership , or " how to be anything one wants to be".

Of course it is teaching leadership. Some girls see menstruation as an obstacle to certain activities. Teaching methods and a mindset to overcome perceived obstacles, of any kind, lends to creating leaders and empowering the girl to become what she wants to be.

 

5 minutes ago, Stosh said:

If BES wants to roughhouse climb trees shoot arrows with the boys,  I think its great.

Its fostering her to engage in things outside girl subjects and relate to the other half,  rather than cloister her away to contemplate her period. 

Again, it falls on the leader and the activities she chooses for her troop. Too many of them forego some of the more physical, outdoor projects, IMO. How can we tell a girl she can be anything she wants to be if we do not allow time for exploration outside of cookies, crafting and sewing. How will they ever realize their potential without exposure to new things?

 

5 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Like wise for the boys , I think more relationships with the girls may broaden their view of the feminine perspective , rather than objectify. 

 

There are events that bring BSA and GSA troops together. I will say it again, it falls on the leaders of the troops to plan, implement and get their kids involved. Meetings and field trips do not happen by osmosis. The overall experience is directly related the leader of the troop and what they are willing to do.

 

I let my troop decide on our activities, what we worked on for community service projects and where we went on field trips. It was my job as their leader to fit the lessons with the activity. Going back to the climbing of trees and roughhousing (girls wrestle too), I could have easily fit that in with the lesson on physical activity and how important it is to overall health. As for archery, GSA has a whole camp dedicated to archery, it is up to the leader to get them there and to utilize the resources available, many do not.

[Stosh]

Thanks, that seems like we have made a complete argument there. It can stand for review like that. 

[liminal_luke]

4 hours ago, windwalker said:

 

birth cert don't matter?

 

 

Not much, no.  It`s best, I think, not to get tripped up by penises.  For mysterious reasons I`m not sure anybody entirely understands, some people born with penises experience themselves as girls and some people born with vaginas experience themselves as boys.  Clearly, this bothers some people.  Many wish it wasn`t so but it is, and no amount of kvetching about it is gonna change this reality.  If we`re going to have a group for only boys, we oughta let all the boys in -- including those we think have the "wrong" genitalia.

Edited October 17, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Stosh]

18 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Not much, no.  It`s better, I think, not to get tripped up by penises.  For mysterious reasons I`m not sure anybody entirely understands, some people born with penises experience themselves as girls and some people born with vaginas experience themselves as boys.  Clearly, this bothers some people.  Many wish it wasn`t so but it is, and no amount of kvetching about it is gonna change this reality.  If we`re going a group for only boys, we oughta let all the boys in -- including those we think have the "wrong" genitalia.

Something eludes me , and If I am not being rude , I would like to ask, What about yourself is girl like ( call her She)  , if not your anatomical parts, and neither is She, if the she is not a girl because of her parts,  nor by what her mind is like. ?

Otherwise put ,  Whats female ? as you see it. 

Or ,phrased another way, If neither anatomical  parts  constitute gender , nor does a mind correspond to anatomical parts, what is it you would think you were alike to?

Edited October 17, 2017 by Stosh

[liminal_luke]

16 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Something eludes me , and If I am not being rude , I would like to ask, What about yourself is girl like ( call her She)  , if not your anatomical parts, and neither is She, if the she is not a girl because of her parts,  nor by what her mind is like. ?

Otherwise put ,  Whats female ? as you see it. 

 

Good question. And a very complicated question in my opinion, which is why we`re so stymied by it as a society.  People keep wanting it to be simple and get upset that it`s not.  I personally think anatomical parts play into the equation, but they are far from the entire answer. Physiology isn`t my area, but if I had to guess I`d say gender has something to do with neurochemistry, with hormones -- with things in the body we can`t clearly see.  Perhaps there`s also an element of spirit.  We might eventually conclude that gender is, at least partially, an ineffable mystery that transcends the limits of purely rational scientific inquiry.  

Edited October 17, 2017 by liminal_luke

[windwalker]

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

If we`re going to have a group for only boys, we oughta let all the boys in -- including those we think have the "wrong" genitalia.

 

Because they are not boys, can not function at the same level as "boys"  

Should the girl scouts allow "all the girls in"  

 

Why is it that most women sports ban or check to make sure that girls are girls if the biology doesn't matter.

[windwalker]

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

We might eventually conclude that gender is, at least partially, an ineffable mystery that transcends the limits of purely rational scientific inquiry. 

 

 

even when its not, and has been studied?  why?

 

 

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

Because they are not boys, can not function at the same level as "boys"  

Should the girl scouts allow "all the girls in"  

 

Why is it that most women sports ban or check to make sure that girls are girls if the biology doesn't matter.

 

Yes, the girl scouts should allow all the girls in.

 

Biology does matter. But there`s more to the biology of gender than what`s apparent on a gross physical level with the naked eye..  

[Aetherous]

21 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

But there`s more to the biology of gender than what`s apparent on a gross physical level with the naked eye..  

 

Yep like chromosomes, hormones, skeletal structure, internal aspects of the genitals, etc...

[windwalker]

30 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Yes, the girl scouts should allow all the girls in.

 

Biology does matter. But there`s more to the biology of gender than what`s apparent on a gross physical level with the naked eye..  

Does this also apply to racial and ethnic groups.  Can anyone choose to be what they feel they are or wish to be.

[Marblehead]

Our true nature is always with us, no matter how hard we try to alter or hide it.

 

 

[Apech]

Just now, Marblehead said:

Our true nature is always with us, no matter how hard we try to alter or hide it.

 

 

 

 

Yeah its a real shame in my case

[Marblehead]

Just now, Apech said:

 

 

Yeah its a real shame in my case

Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[liminal_luke]

16 minutes ago, windwalker said:

Does this also apply to racial and ethnic groups.  Can anyone choose to be what they feel they are or wish to be.

 

13 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Our true nature is always with us, no matter how hard we try to alter or hide it.

 

 

 

Marblehead`s got it right.  We are what we are.  The boys naturally belong in the Boy Scouts, the girls in the Girl Scouts.  Nobody gets to choose; everybody gets sorted out according to their true nature. Most of the time our true nature corresponds to our anatomical genitals: that is to say, most of the time the boys are the ones with the penises.  Very occasionlly, there`s a biological glitch and a boy will have female genitals.  Hey, it happens.  When that happens, that boy belongs in the Boy Scouts.  Nobody chooses anything.  Everybody goes where they belong.

Edited October 17, 2017 by liminal_luke

[windwalker]

"When that happens, that boy belongs in the Boy Scouts. "

 

No

 

That person is not male, and never will be.  They have no "right" that automatically in titles them based on feelings just as a man can never conceive a child no matter what they feel.