Wanting to be right.

[liminal_luke]

Is anybody else getting tired of wanting to be right?  I`m in the process of reevaluating my participation in Daobums, and one of the things I`m looking at is this desire to be right.  Both my own desire and that of other people.  It comes up everywhere but especially in Political threads.  Who is right? There are people for Trump or those against him.  Those who want the Boy Scouts to have nothing to do with girls, and those who welcome girls programs within the umbrella of the organization.  Those who want to limit the sale of guns and those who feel proud of their personal armory.  It`s all a bit much.

 

A bum recently used a word I`d never heard before: pussification.  He meant it, as you might imagine, in a negative way. It seems liberals are trying to pussify Western culture, a trend he found objectionable.  Although he wasn`t talking to me, I can`t help but feel like one of the most flagrant pussifiers on the board.  It`s not a good feeling.  People will tell me that if I`m too sensitive I should stay out of political threads, and of course they have a point.  But this wanting-to-be-right disease has infected more than just Off-Grid. It`s everywhere.

 

At it`s best, I believe the Daobums is about helping each other.  There`s a spirit of cooperation and sharing.  Not so much virtual head shaking about how terrible other people are.  Don`t get me wrong -- I like a good battle as much as anybody else.  Still, I`m coming to the conclusion that internet squabbling isn`t good for me.  I come to the Daobums for spiritual inspiration, to find resources and information that will help me come into alignment with my best self. Often enough, that`s just what I find. All to often though, I`ll sink into the quicksand of wanting-to-be-right.     

[thelerner]

I used to want to be right,

but years of marriage

has slowly beaten it out of me. 

<kidding..sort of> 

Edited October 15, 2017 by thelerner

[Seatle185]

Yes, that is why i listen more than i talk these days haha..that and i dont know much to begin with  that need to be right is everywhere as far as i can see, no getting away from it. 

 

I come here for the same reason you do, and the ego can get in the way of that for me as well. For what its worth i enjoy your posts and hope you dont leave.

[liminal_luke]

11 minutes ago, thelerner said:

For years I wanted to be right,

but years of marriage

has slowly beaten it out of me. 

<kidding..sort of> 

 

Although you might be speaking in jest (sort of), I think you`re on to something: perhaps one of the things that marriage can teach us is to let go of our gotta-be-right egoic selves in favor of collaboration.  I recently signed up for the "Marriage Minute," a free twice-weekly relationship advice email from couples therapy gurus John and Julie Gottman.  Here`s the marriage minute email I received last.  (Here`s hoping all our personal relationships -- and especially our marriages -- are more harmonious and collaborative than the average Off-Grid thread.  Something I`m working at in my own relationship.)

 

You're on the same team

Any marriage problem is like a soccer ball that the two of you are kicking around. You work together, figuring out how to get it down the field. But it isn't just your problem, or your partner's. It belongs to you both. You're on the same team. When it comes to problems in your marriage, try to look at them objectively as projects that the two of you are going to keep working at in a collaborative way. Working together, even if you don't make much progress, will build trust and understanding. And that will keep any given problem, even the unsolvable ones, from harming your marriage.

Edited October 15, 2017 by liminal_luke

[liminal_luke]

8 minutes ago, Seatle185 said:

Yes, that is why i listen more than i talk these days haha..that and i dont know much to begin with  

 

Listening more you talk, and believing that you don`t know much: some might call that spiritual maturity. 

[ralis]

42 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Is anybody else getting tired of wanting to be right?  I`m in the process of reevaluating my participation in Daobums, and one of the things I`m looking at is this desire to be right.  Both my own desire and that of other people.  It comes up everywhere but especially in Political threads.  Who is right? There are people for Trump or those against him.  Those who want the Boy Scouts to have nothing to do with girls, and those who welcome girls programs within the umbrella of the organization.  Those who want to limit the sale of guns and those who feel proud of their personal armory.  It`s all a bit much.

 

A bum recently used a word I`d never heard before: pussification.  He meant it, as you might imagine, in a negative way. It seems liberals are trying to pussify Western culture, a trend he found objectionable.  Although he wasn`t talking to me, I can`t help but feel like one of the most flagrant pussifiers on the board.  It`s not a good feeling.  People will tell me that if I`m too sensitive I should stay out of political threads, and of course they have a point.  But this wanting-to-be-right disease has infected more than just Off-Grid. It`s everywhere.

 

At it`s best, I believe the Daobums is about helping each other.  There`s a spirit of cooperation and sharing.  Not so much virtual head shaking about how terrible other people are.  Don`t get me wrong -- I like a good battle as much as anybody else.  Still, I`m coming to the conclusion that internet squabbling isn`t good for me.  I come to the Daobums for spiritual inspiration, to find resources and information that will help me come into alignment with my best self. Often enough, that`s just what I find. All to often though, I`ll sink into the quicksand of wanting-to-be-right.     

 

 

I am taking time off from this site. Racism, anti-Semitism, misogyny and the unbridled support for Trump's aberrant behavior without question, is preposterous. The mods refuse to take a stand against such hate and at least one, clicks the 'Thank you' button on a consistent basis which denotes, implicit approval. The banality of evil is insidious!

Edited October 15, 2017 by ralis

[cold]

Of course we all want to right, smarter etc..

And as one would expect in spiritual or philosophical forum we should expect passion.

Sadly we to often get petty arguments resulting from knee jerk reactions to supposed slights.

 

Visionaries lie to themselves. Visionaries grow to believe in something; a better world, a utopia, a better way to accomplish something, even on changing the world. And on ways to accomplish these visions. Even if accomplishing these are next to impossible or against all odds. To the point of "lying" to themselves and ignoring truths so they can accomplish such visions or goals. To be foolish enough to follow the dreams the visions. These are not true lies, but true believes.

Carlos Enrique Ortiz  On Fredrick Nietzsche

 

 

We are closer than we realize sometimes, sometimes too close for comfort ...

There are teachers here and there be visionaries here.

Some times we are both. If only for a brief moment.

 

[cold]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

 

I am taking time off from this site. Racism, anti-Semitism, misogyny and the unbridled support for Trump's aberrant behavior without question is preposterous. The mods refuse to take a stand against such hate and at least one, clicks the 'Thank you' button on a consistent basis which denotes, implicit approval. The banality of evil is insidious!

 

maybe reconsider?

1st they came for...

[phil]

I can also see it in my relationships to other people.. it's like I don't care at all about other peoples opinions anymore. Not that I don't care about other people, I think I might even care more then before, but in another way probably.

There simply isn't that truth, and that way of thinking. This might even be mistaken for indifference or apathy, but to me this attitude it's quite the opposite actually and has a lot to do with respect and tolerance.. 

[rene]

The things I see coming... I dont want to be right about.

[ralis]

One thing I failed to mention is a post in the general section this past summer or spring in which a member stated that the moderators are selected and appointed by their ability to manipulate energy at a distance and such energy work was part of the job of a mod. If such allegations are factual, that would be unethical.

 

There have been reports of covert energy manipulation on this site in the past and it would take a lot of research and time to find the complaints.

 

 

[rene]

On 10/15/2017 at 1:47 PM, ralis said:

One thing I failed to mention is a post in the general section this past summer or spring in which a member stated that the moderators are selected and appointed by their ability to manipulate energy at a distance and such energy work was part of the job of a mod. If such allegations are factual, that would be unethical.

 

There have been reports of covert energy manipulation on this site in the past and it would take a lot of research and time to find the complaints.

 

 

 

Yes....we all have ultimate supreme powers and can bend minds. Especially Marblehead, who can conjure up anything!

 

 

Seriously, ralis, I hope you can find a way to stay & continue, especially in the TT thread in Off-Grid. It might seem like your position there is 'out-numbered' - but there is no way you (or any of us) can know what affect or impact our words and ideas might have on another. 'Winning' or 'being right' doesn't matter. Keeping the dialogue going, expressing what's in our hearts - does.

 

Some have closed ears.

Most of us - do not.

Please allow people the opportunity to change their minds.

 

warm greetings

Edited October 17, 2017 by rene
remove insult to Marblehead

[rene]

4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

At it`s best, I believe the Daobums is about helping each other.  There`s a spirit of cooperation and sharing.  Not so much virtual head shaking about how terrible other people are.  Don`t get me wrong -- I like a good battle as much as anybody else.  Still, I`m coming to the conclusion that internet squabbling isn`t good for me.  I come to the Daobums for spiritual inspiration, to find resources and information that will help me come into alignment with my best self. Often enough, that`s just what I find. All to often though, I`ll sink into the quicksand of wanting-to-be-right.     

 

Hi luke (-:

 

Understandable how you feel. I've backed away from time to time, over the years, myself.

 

There's a great passage in ZZ, about going through stuff but it 'doesn't get in(side)'. Maybe  @Marblehead   knows it? There's one in the DDJ, too, in Ch50, that points at this idea.

 

Peace to you, friend. (-:

 

[Marblehead]

I'm not sure what you are referring to here Rene but if anyone feels it is important I will do my best to find it.

 

[Geof Nanto]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Is anybody else getting tired of wanting to be right?  I`m in the process of reevaluating my participation in Daobums, and one of the things I`m looking at is this desire to be right.  Both my own desire and that of other people.  It comes up everywhere but especially in Political threads.  Who is right? There are people for Trump or those against him.  Those who want the Boy Scouts to have nothing to do with girls, and those who welcome girls programs within the umbrella of the organization.  Those who want to limit the sale of guns and those who feel proud of their personal armory.  It`s all a bit much.

 

A bum recently used a word I`d never heard before: pussification.  He meant it, as you might imagine, in a negative way. It seems liberals are trying to pussify Western culture, a trend he found objectionable.  Although he wasn`t talking to me, I can`t help but feel like one of the most flagrant pussifiers on the board.  It`s not a good feeling.  People will tell me that if I`m too sensitive I should stay out of political threads, and of course they have a point.  But this wanting-to-be-right disease has infected more than just Off-Grid. It`s everywhere.

 

At it`s best, I believe the Daobums is about helping each other.  There`s a spirit of cooperation and sharing.  Not so much virtual head shaking about how terrible other people are.  Don`t get me wrong -- I like a good battle as much as anybody else.  Still, I`m coming to the conclusion that internet squabbling isn`t good for me.  I come to the Daobums for spiritual inspiration, to find resources and information that will help me come into alignment with my best self. Often enough, that`s just what I find. All to often though, I`ll sink into the quicksand of wanting-to-be-right.     

 

Hi Liminal,

 

I like what you wrote but my ironical sense of humour said, "Ah! he's trying to be right on a deeper level." Oh, the insidiousness of wanting to be right!  Am I right!   

 

I hope you stick around but that's entirely up to you, of course. I can only stay with something when it’s personally meaningful. Otherwise I feel inauthentic. 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

9 minutes ago, Yueya said:

 

  Am I right!   

 

 

In my experience, you usually are. 

[Geof Nanto]

This topic is very relevant for people on a Daoist path…..

 

In the past I’ve had strong political opinions and spent much time and energy in debate.  However, now I’m well into the second half of my life my journey is showing me a path of homeless wandering – homeless not in a physical sense of not having a permanent building to live in (I have a very comfortable home), but without a permanent conceptual home. And it doesn’t mean I’m without the shelter of meaning – rather meanings (beliefs, conceptualizations) are like places I wander through. I accept all meanings as cultural constructs.  They are fluid, continually evolving.

 

It's been important for me to build my own beliefs and concepts, my own house – and I value all those people now and throughout history who have helped with their own efforts at concept building. They have given me my raw materials for my own sense-making; and given us all our extensive constructs of cultural values.  This ongoing effort is hugely important. I suspect we must all participate in this building of our culture before we can validly become homeless wanders.

 

And there’s no reason to leave home if you are comfortable there. Zhuangzi was the great homeless wanderer of ancient China. Ironically, we now make a home – a philosophy, a religion – out of his free and easy ramblings through vast landscapes of sense making and mystery.  I have no problems with this – what’s meaningful for each of us is different and changes over time. 

 

[Nungali]

I want to  be  right .

 

I will say I am right ... even to the extent that people will want to challenge me .  If they offer good , reasonable , logical , sensible points and evidence that I can see  reflection of, within the processes of nature, I will admit I was wrong and incorporate their new information.

 

So then,  I will then be' more right' .     

 

Errrrmmmm    I might do the same thing about   '  being wrong'   stuff   too  .    

[Nungali]

..... oh yeah  ....

 

but

 

I wouldn't go near the political issues  or forums   !   < Urk  ! >

[rene]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I want to  be  right .

 

I will say I am right ... even to the extent that people will want to challenge me .  If they offer good , reasonable , logical , sensible points and evidence that I can see  reflection of, within the processes of nature, I will admit I was wrong and incorporate their new information.

 

So then,  I will then be' more right' .     

 

Errrrmmmm    I might do the same thing about   '  being wrong'   stuff   too  .    

 

You are right!

 

Here is your Prize!

[zerostao]

It's pointless to be right in most cases anyhow. Leucippus and Democritus were right but were out-argued by Aristotle. So, it took humanity and science 2000 years to overcome that. Here on TDB, we can argue that war is wrong and if by some unprecedented occurrence all bums on that thread agree. So what? It's not like war is going away. I've taken a break or two from the site. And I expect to continue here as long as it remains possible to do so. There is a sense of community here that I doubt can be found on any other site. Excepting maybe a Mormon site, I saw where someone brought up Mormons. They probably have a sense of community but will you find the quirkiness there that one single bum embodies? You won't. This place is special. TDB is a refuge, a sanctuary. It gets rough and tumbles, sure, and when close held notions get seriously challenged, it takes a toll sometimes. This week I had a knee give me fits, I stepped in a hole while walking to town. Each day it got worse, and I ended up having to eat about 40 of those black tea pills a day and pouring jow straight out of the bottle on it. I had been humbled and forced to walk like a normal person, not like the bagua bum that I have become. It is a painful experience and one that I will get over. I could cry over it, I've come close to doing just that. I have to take a break from my circle walking for a bit which gave me time to think about other things, which led me to battle with nihilistic thoughts. Politics is frustrating for us all, I am sure. Reading about how the Pacific ocean is a dead zone and how all of the environmental laws have been overturned for more fossil fuel are types of things that could crush me. Luckily, there is a treasure trove of great threads all over the site. Many long forgotten and gathering dust waiting for some random bum to come along and knock the dust off and rediscover the magic. Even share it and/or add to it. And who put those magical threads there? Bums did. When it comes down to it and all looks bleak, I want to be in the company of bums. It doesn't matter if we agree on politics or not, or if we agree much on anything. We're bums. Luke, you're a bum. Rails you're a bum. It's us bums; it's us! Joeblast if you're reading this, you're a bum too.

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, rene said:

 

You are right!

 

Here is your Prize!

 

yeah but .... 

 

sages always wanna   teach stuff   .... but being lazy  following the path of the Dao,      take a subtle approach .

 

I'm not teachin  nuffin      just observing and learning .  

[Geof Nanto]

In The Red Book, Carl Jung relates an encounter within his psyche between himself and Satan. He tells Satan, "Listen, something has just happened to us; we have united the opposites. Among other things, we have bonded you with God..... This unification is an important principle. We have put a stop to never ending quarrelling, to finally free our hands for real life"

 

Needless to say Satan finds this to be foolish nonsense, and comments it smells of monism. Jung counters: "You're mistaken. Matters are not as rational with us as they seem to be. We have no single correct truth either. Rather a most remarkable and strange fact has occurred; after the opposites had been united, quite unexpectedly and incomprehensibly nothing further happened. Everything remained in place, peaceful and yet completely motionless, and life turned into a complete standstill."

 

In other words, life manifests through polarity; polarity is needed for energy to flow. Consciousness would not be possible without polarity, without yin and yang interacting with each other in constant motion. But it’s a matter of continually finding what is an appropriate amount of polarity, neither too much or too little; the balance between peace and conflict. And finding that balance is something that’s fluid, different for everybody; a dance that’s continually being played out everywhere, including on this forum. Too much conflict destroys any community; too little and it lacks vitality, stagnates.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Yueya said:

In The Red Book, Carl Jung relates an encounter within his psyche between himself and Satan. He tells Satan, "Listen, something has just happened to us; we have united the opposites. Among other things, we have bonded you with God..... This unification is an important principle. We have put a stop to never ending quarrelling, to finally free our hands for real life"

 

Needless to say Satan finds this to be foolish nonsense, and comments it smells of monism. Jung counters: "You're mistaken. Matters are not as rational with us as they seem to be. We have no single correct truth either. Rather a most remarkable and strange fact has occurred; after the opposites had been united, quite unexpectedly and incomprehensibly nothing further happened. Everything remained in place, peaceful and yet completely motionless, and life turned into a complete standstill."

 

In other words, life manifests through polarity; polarity is needed for energy to flow. Consciousness would not be possible without polarity, without yin and yang interacting with each other in constant motion. But it’s a matter of continually finding what is an appropriate amount of polarity, neither too much or too little; the balance between peace and conflict. And finding that balance is something that’s fluid, different for everybody; a dance that’s continually being played out everywhere, including on this forum. Too much conflict destroys any community; too little and it lacks vitality, stagnates.

 

 

Well said !

 

May your crescent Moon conjoin your Sun    

 

 

Spoiler

We used to enact this  God / Satan   ....  / 'Jungian Mystery '  in   The Rite of Sol ;

 

ARIES. Whence come ye, brethren?

SATAN-TYPHON. From the dwelling place of the sun.

ARIES. Who are ye, brethren?

SATAN-TYPHON. I am the twin brother of the sun.

...

SATAN-TYPHON. I would have speech with my brother the Sun.

ARIES. It is well.

LEO. It is not well. There is danger herein to my Lord. [He bars the way].

ARIES. Seech cannont harm our Lord.

LEO. Brother, if thou be indeed our brother, what wilt thou say?

SATAN-TYPHON. O Sun, my brother, is it thy will that I have speech with thee? For I have lain with thee nine moons in the womb of our mother; for we have loved as none have loved; for I am closer knit with thee than light and darkness, or than life and death!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by Nungali

[Cueball]

21 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Listening more you talk, and believing that you don`t know much: some might call that spiritual maturity. 

There's a Reggie Ray talk somewhere where he quotes Trungpa Rinpoche as saying progress on the path is marked by becoming "more uncertain and less obnoxious".

 

(I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist.)