Wanting to be right.

[Cueball]

I think it is inevitable that at some stage — and at repeated stages over time — to become overly enamoured with our own thoughts and viewpoints. Actually even more so as experience and awareness grows. The forces that are uncovered cause a real condensation of mental ideation, which seemingly works against the aspiration for more tolerance and openness.

 

So it is quite a useful (I would say even necessary) thing to experience, but this kind of rigidity, this crystallisation needs acknowledging. Not so much to not piss people off on the internet (although people tell me that's also important), but for the more pernicious effects e.g.

 

"[…] people are frequently slain (in the occult and therefore in the more important sense) by their own thought-forms. Thought creation, through concentration and meditation, is a potently dangerous matter. This must never be forgotten. There are forms of thought, unencumbered by much desire matter, which, failing to pass downward, poison the man on mental levels. This they do in two ways:

 

1. By growing so potent on the mental plane that the man falls a victim to the thing he has created. This is the "idée fixe" of the psychiatrist; the obsession which drives to lunacy; the one-pointed line of thought which eventually terrorises its creator.

 

2. By multiplying so fast that the mental aura of the man becomes like unto a thick and dense cloud, through which the light of the soul must fail to penetrate, and through which the love of human beings, the lovely and beautiful and comforting activities of nature and of life in the three worlds equally fail to pierce. The man is smothered, is suffocated by his own thought-forms, and succumbs to the miasma which he himself has engendered."

 

— Alice Bailey: The Soul and Its Thought-Forms

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by Cueball

[Stosh]

33 minutes ago, Cueball said:

There's a Reggie Ray talk somewhere where he quotes Trungpa Rinpoche as saying progress on the path is marked by becoming "more uncertain and less obnoxious".

 

(I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist.)

Like Columbus, I am going to stick with going to the orient by heading West

,, which is to say, become less uncertain , because in my youth I was at my most certain , and least troublesome.  

Can you be as the innocent child , honest and just ,  uncorrupted by the slings of misfortune , and misguided paradigm?

Edited October 16, 2017 by Stosh

[Wu Ming Jen]

My left hand and my right hand are always at odds, conflicted. The left hand is like why are you always called right and my right hand tells the left hand to stop being so lazy.

Then my left hand will be on the defensive and say let me hold the fork while we eat so you do not keep giving me the fork to pick up the knife just to put the knife down and take back the fork, stop being so stupid right hand. At that moment  both hands were like who is this us, our and we? If there is an us,our or we that would mean conflict united would be in harmony.

 

That is when my feet said to my hands to move in one direction one foot moves back and the other foot moves forward. forces moving in opposite directions is conflict so without conflict we would not be able to walk. Now my hands and feet are contemplating this one  uniting force that creates harmony out of conflict. 

 

My teacher said wipe right and wrong from your mind. If one person says the pie is sweet and the other that the pie is sour they are both right. So I stopped making sweet pie or sour pie now I just make pie, the tastiest most incredible pie ever.The funny thing is that some people do not like pie.

 

The moral of this long post is please do not take a break from TDB people. How boring it would be to all have the same perspective. 

 

Being always right is not an issue for me sometimes I am like a nascar driver left turn, left turn, left turn and other times it is all about right turn on red. When we unite all the forces into a single force we become powerful.when there is pressure on the left side the left side empties and the right side becomes full or when one part of the body moves all parts move when one is still all  parts are still.

 

If one does not agree with all this nonsense it is perfectly OK for them to be wrong, no biggie, keep calm and post on!

 

[Geof Nanto]

3 hours ago, Stosh said:

Like Columbus, I am going to stick with going to the orient by heading West

,, which is to say, become less uncertain , because in my youth I was at my most certain , and least troublesome.  

Can you be as the innocent child , honest and just ,  uncorrupted by the slings of misfortune , and misguided paradigm?

 

That's actually also a very Daoist perspective following the rule of three..... 

 

Mountain, no mountain, mountain. 

[Marblehead]

But remember, the mountain was always there for everyone else.  It never went away.

 

[Stosh]

10 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

But remember, the mountain was always there for everyone else.  It never went away.

 

Yes, it was always there, But I still think its a good analogy , an emotional hurdle looming large ,

the death of a loved one or something, and you fear it or are saddened or something , and yet you go forward ,

till its not looming above anymore , then you work your way back to level ground,

and its there again, but different.

You've been up there, and you made it back whole ,

and while you don't want to go through that all again , its just not the same

,, though it was indeed always there , just as it is now. 

 

So it is ,, to return to the innocence and openness and bright confidence of ones youth , having been beyond.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I just wanted to share a little bit of reality.  

 

Sitting on one's behind just knowing that things will eventually get better is like imagining that the mountain isn't there.  Until we get up and do something, nothing is going to change.

 

[morning dew]

On 15/10/2017 at 6:39 PM, liminal_luke said:

Is anybody else getting tired of wanting to be right? 

 

I remember when I first started posting on vBulletin forums (about 10 years ago) in a serious way, I got into this argument with an atheist, who was basically just trolling everybody, for days on end. After about a week I realised how stupid it was that I was getting angry over words on a screen from a random person and wasting so much energy over it, and I told him I'd leave him to it and his thread and moved on. 

 

Then a little while later I was playing a MUD and somebody tricked me and killed me, and I went onto a group channel and started cursing him out and created loads of drama. Some people were sympathetic, some people thought it was hilarious but eventually I ended up getting trolled and made fun of by some people and I gave up lol 

 

Ever since then I've promised myself never to react to words on a screen. Now and then I may see something that irritates me (or even that I  just happen to disagree with), but I just acknowledge it's my own issue and take responsibility for how I'm feeling. I never react back. I'll either blank the person (if I think they're just being a PITA) or just agree to disagree (if I think the person is okay and we just happen to not see eye to eye). 

 

On 15/10/2017 at 6:39 PM, liminal_luke said:

 I`m in the process of reevaluating my participation in Daobums, and one of the things I`m looking at is this desire to be right.  Both my own desire and that of other people.  It comes up everywhere but especially in Political threads.  Who is right? There are people for Trump or those against him.  Those who want the Boy Scouts to have nothing to do with girls, and those who welcome girls programs within the umbrella of the organization.  Those who want to limit the sale of guns and those who feel proud of their personal armory.  It`s all a bit much.  

 

Quote

 

"Suppose you and I have had an argument. If you have beaten me instead of my beating you, then are you necessarily right and am I necessarily wrong? If I have beaten you instead of your beating me, then am I necessarily right and are you necessarily wrong? Is one of us right and the other wrong? Are both of us right or are both of us wrong? If you and I don't know the answer, then other people are bound to be even more in the dark. Whom shall we get to decide what is right? Shall we get someone who agrees with you to decide? But if he already agrees with you, how can he decide fairly? Shall we get someone who agrees with me? But if he already agrees with me, how can he decide? Shall we get someone who disagrees with both of us? But if he already disagrees with both of us, how can he decide? Shall we get someone who agrees with both of us? But if he already agrees with both of us, how can he decide? Obviously, then, neither you nor I nor anyone else can decide for each other. Shall we wait for still another person?

 

"But waiting for one shifting voice [to pass judgment on] another is the same as waiting for none of them. Harmonize them all with the Heavenly Equality, leave them to their endless changes, and so live out your years. What do I mean by harmonizing them with the Heavenly Equality? Right is not right; so is not so. If right were really right, it would differ so clearly from not right that there would be no need for argument. If so were really so, it would differ so clearly from not so that there would be no need for argument. Forget the years; forget distinctions. Leap into the boundless and make it your home!"

 

 

ZZ End of chapter 2

Edited October 16, 2017 by morning dew

[Stosh]

"Suppose you and I have had an argument. If you have beaten me instead of my beating you, then are you necessarily right and am I necessarily wrong?

Questions are fulfilled by answers so,  there is no beating , the point is to find concensus.  

 

If I have beaten you instead of your beating me, then am I necessarily right and are you necessarily wrong?

If we are honest the conclusion should be true.

 

 

Is one of us right and the other wrong?

 

Could be. 

 

 

Are both of us right or are both of us wrong?

 

about what ? 

 

If you and I don't know the answer, then other people are bound to be even more in the dark.

 

Maybe not , there's no basis for that assumption.

 

 

Whom shall we get to decide what is right?

 

Each of us needs to compare our model to reality. 

 

Shall we get someone who agrees with you to decide?

But if he already agrees with you, how can he decide fairly? Shall we get someone who agrees with me? But if he already agrees with me, how can he decide? Shall we get someone who disagrees with both of us? But if he already disagrees with both of us, how can he decide? Shall we get someone who agrees with both of us? But if he already agrees with both of us, how can he decide? Obviously, then, neither you nor I nor anyone else can decide for each other. Shall we wait for still another person?

 

 

You want a neutral party , if you cant be objective on an honor basis. 

 

"But waiting for one shifting voice [to pass judgment on] another is the same as waiting for none of them. Harmonize them all with the Heavenly Equality, leave them to their endless changes, and so live out your years. What do I mean by harmonizing them with the Heavenly Equality? Right is not right; so is not so.

 

Cowards way out. If you were arguing for a purpose , then the purpose is thwarted by neglecting to acknowledge it.

 

If right were really right, it would differ so clearly from not right that there would be no need for argument.

 

No basis.

 

 

If so were really so, it would differ so clearly from not so that there would be no need for argument. Forget the years; forget distinctions.

 

No basis for this assertion . 

 

Leap into the boundless and make it your home!"

 

Personal opinion unsupported by the argument. 

 

 

Re-reading Giles, I am not even sure of who made this argument. If its Zz then I disagre with him on this matter but from within the translation its not clear that these are his opinions, ,, any opinions?

 

 

"When subjective and objective are both without their correlates, that is the very axis of Tao. And when that axis passes through the centre at which all Infinities converge, positive and negative alike blend into an infinite One. Hence it has been said that there is nothing like the light of nature.

Probably an allusion to Lao Tzŭ's "Use the light that is within you to revert to your natural clearness of sight." We should then be able to view things in their true light. See Tao-Tê-Ching ch. lii., and The Remains of Lao Tzŭ, p. 34.

 

So this to me looks like at least Lao is endorsing that there is a truth , a reality against which being right can be compared , which tears up the argument that one cannot determine if a thing is right. There are other issues but I suppose thats for a different thread. 

Edited October 16, 2017 by Stosh

[silent thunder]

On 10/15/2017 at 10:39 AM, liminal_luke said:

Is anybody else getting tired of wanting to be right?  I`m in the process of reevaluating my participation in Daobums, and one of the things I`m looking at is this desire to be right.  Both my own desire and that of other people.  It comes up everywhere but especially in Political threads.  Who is right? There are people for Trump or those against him.  Those who want the Boy Scouts to have nothing to do with girls, and those who welcome girls programs within the umbrella of the organization.  Those who want to limit the sale of guns and those who feel proud of their personal armory.  It`s all a bit much.

 

A bum recently used a word I`d never heard before: pussification.  He meant it, as you might imagine, in a negative way. It seems liberals are trying to pussify Western culture, a trend he found objectionable.  Although he wasn`t talking to me, I can`t help but feel like one of the most flagrant pussifiers on the board.  It`s not a good feeling.  People will tell me that if I`m too sensitive I should stay out of political threads, and of course they have a point.  But this wanting-to-be-right disease has infected more than just Off-Grid. It`s everywhere.

 

At it`s best, I believe the Daobums is about helping each other.  There`s a spirit of cooperation and sharing.  Not so much virtual head shaking about how terrible other people are.  Don`t get me wrong -- I like a good battle as much as anybody else.  Still, I`m coming to the conclusion that internet squabbling isn`t good for me.  I come to the Daobums for spiritual inspiration, to find resources and information that will help me come into alignment with my best self. Often enough, that`s just what I find. All to often though, I`ll sink into the quicksand of wanting-to-be-right.     

I'm desperately sick of the seemingly default inclination of my mind to cement itself to a position and then defend it, or attack other positions relative to it. 

 

Any more, it's painfully apparent to my awarness, that this process is futile, infantile adn would be humorous in the extreme were it not responsible for so much suffering in my own self and in the apparent exterior world around me.

 

The entire process seems birthed in violence at its core and gives rise to unimaginable suffering, on the smallest and grandest scales.

 

For decades of my life, I walked around trying to convince others when I thought they were wrong.  Much of this was due to my apostacy/awakening out of the world view I was given by my Mother and her reiligion.  I considered that old world view to be 'wrong' and 'false' and that I had woken up into the 'truth'.

 

Now I realize it is not the Truth... by only my truth.  My path is true relative to me, but no longer do I have any notions that I can improve another's path by interfering, altering or changing it.  Who am I to know what another should do to awaken?  Perhaps my assumption that in alleviating someone's suffering through my changing their mind, or circumstances to be making anything better?

 

I'm reminded of the stories of folks who, winning the lottery, assume all their troubles will vanish only to find their lives are far more miserable after the money than before.  Their old friends no longer relate to them, their fellow rich folks don't accept them, due to the random nature of their status and they end up isolated and in great suffering in spite of much money in the bank.

 

I have no notion that I can improve another's life path.  I can't fix anyone.  I'm not the world police, nor the spirit brigade.

 

This is at the foundation of my radical release approach to life of late.

 

Who am I to know what suffering, or lack of suffering will bring to awakening, another awareness?

 

I just walk my path.  I react as I react, but there is no agenda to cleanse, organize or set anyone else straight.

 

There is no straight, there is no right or wrong.  only facets of perception, like faces on a gem, refracting and reflecting awareness.

 

I can only effectively be me.  All else is projection.  So I release everything... and repeatedly, the only thing that remains, indeed I suspect the only thing that actually exists... is awareness and presence.  And this seems utterly neutral.

 

Verse 2 from My Haiku Tao

 

2

As high defines low,
difficult defines easy,
sound requires silence.

 

Relative to self,
mind creates a position,
perceptions arise.

 

Mind of perception,
exists in fields of conflict,
self against other.

 

Having and losing
are forever together,
always rise with fall.

 

Always opposites,
reflecting in their other;
the truth within form.

 

Beyond perception,
opposites experienced,
as unified bliss.

 

[silent thunder]

I'm reminded of an incident involving a well meaning neighbor who in trying to do the right thing, caused the death of a litter of kittens.

 

A stray cat birthed a litter under our property and this gal was feeding the Mom, tending the kittens and watching/fretting over them constantly, obsessively.  She is beset by many health issues, constant anxiety and extreme stress.

 

One afternoon she panicked and grabbed all the kittens, because the mother had disappeared.  She brought the kittens to the local pound to save them.  Those that didn't die from getting ill at the shelter, were euthenized soon after.

 

Not a week later, we saw the Mother cat, still walking around the neighborhood.  She hadn't disappeared at all.  She was out hunting to have milk for her babes.

 

This woman was absolutely certain she was doing the 'right thing' to help those kittens... and here I sit, typing this now and judging her, that she was wrong. 

 

Neither one of us is right.

 

It's just life.  Life just is.

Just Be...

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

 

Neither one of us is right.

 

It's just life.  Life just is.

Just Be...

 

Beautiful thoughts, Silent Thunder.  I hadn`t thought of it previously in terms of trying to "fix" other people, but that`s exactly it.  For me, that`s an issue that goes beyond just how I am on Daobums.  Something to think about.

[Will]

I can definitely understand what the OP is referring to here.

 

Not necessarily here, but on some other forums, I've gotten in big political arguments. I feel so excited and passionate as I type, but then later I feel empty, doubtful of the rightness of my argument, and I wish I could take the words back and not argue with anyone. Like the OP in this thread, I feel ashamed that I've let my desire to be right take over, when, really, what does it matter whether I'm right or not?

 

Perhaps this is just because of the way I've been conditioned, but I've always found harmony and friendship more desirable than argument (the exception being if the argument is light-hearted/playful, of course). For instance, there are some clubs I attend at my high school that do political discussion. My favorite is, not surprisingly, the most light-hearted one, where politics is simply used as a springboard to make jokes and engage in pretty light-hearted argument. It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than some of the more dead-serious clubs where things are a little more tense. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Will

[Marblehead]

Please, anyone, let me know if you think I am getting too serious on this forum.

 

Well, except for my membership approval process.  That's business.

 

[Geof Nanto]

24 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Please, anyone, let me know if you think I am getting too serious on this forum.

 

Well, except for my membership approval process.  That's business.

 

 

My participation here has helped me enormously with my personal practice. I take it seriously. I don’t come here for banter, although I appreciate that banter is an essential ingredient for forum cohesion. However, to my reading of the board, most everyone – if not everyone – takes their participation here seriously at a deeper level.  If anyone doesn’t and cares to let me know, they will become my first entries on the “Ignore posts by this person” option. 

[rene]

On 10/17/2017 at 10:24 AM, silent thunder said:

I have no notion that I can improve another's life path.  I can't fix anyone.  I'm not the world police, nor the spirit brigade.

 

This is at the foundation of my radical release approach to life of late.

 

Who am I to know what suffering, or lack of suffering will bring to awakening, another awareness?

 

I just walk my path.  I react as I react, but there is no agenda to cleanse, organize or set anyone else straight.

 

Wow, very nice posts. Not sure how I missed them previously.

You are a gift to the forum, silent thunder.

I'm glad you are here.

 

warm greetings (-:

[thelerner]

Right or Wrong

The World moves on

and so must we 

 

[dawei]

really interesting read through.. and I forget who even started it...  

 

wanting to be right ?  

 

now, that is funny... 

 

join staff...

 

Talk about being on the wrong side of things...  no wonder we can't get folks to volunteer...  

 

what's the topic ?

 

 

[Lost in Translation]

I don't wanna be right. I don't wanna be wrong.

 

I just want to be.

[Marblehead]

6 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

I don't wanna be right. 

Don't worry.  Most of the time you aren't.

 

(That's a joke if you haven't picked up on my sense of humor yet.)

 

[CloudHands]

On 15/10/2017 at 10:47 PM, ralis said:

One thing I failed to mention is a post in the general section this past summer or spring in which a member stated that the moderators are selected and appointed by their ability to manipulate energy at a distance and such energy work was part of the job of a mod. If such allegations are factual, that would be unethical.

 

There have been reports of covert energy manipulation on this site in the past and it would take a lot of research and time to find the complaints.

 

 

 

I deeply agree with Rene. As you know what you say clearly is going counter flow here, so your position is per se hard to hold but clearly it adds something to the very minimum, it creates a debate. I don't ask you to stay to play the red devils advocate but instead I suggest you to avoid the idea of convincing anyone... Why people think what they think in most cases is beyond intellect, beyond their life, beyong their generation.

Play the game for the beauty or the fun you can find in it. Ultimately, nobody is right, it's a process, a moving form.

[CloudHands]

*

Edited October 27, 2017 by CloudHands
lost

[Spotless]

 

[Spotless]

In the crux of this of wanting to be right is "Position" and "Willfulness" - the centerpiece of all practice of / toward Awakening - Enlightening.

 

Position and Willfulness reflect the Karma one is working in - the frequencies one has settled in and is working through.

 

The adhesion in these frequencies - the loyalty to them - is reflected in the righteousness (identification) of the holder.

 

Position can be viewed in part as : A desire for Orchestrated flow - based in beliefs and experiences of all sorts - held existence - control - the perception that we are in control.

Willfulness can be viewed as : Open flow "according to ME"

 

Position - Belief - is in Past - one can have alll the assets of being well informed and vibrant in life without Positions / Beliefs.

In the suspension of Position/Belief is Awakening - Divine Essence - Still Awareness - it is not a passive state.

 

Willfulness - Subjugation - Pecking Order - Instinctive Fight and Flight. In willfulness one has generally lost ones head - it is karmic railroading. The end justifies the means.

 

So....

 

What arises is "how does anything get done if not by way of orchestrating or "over-riding forward movement" (or deconstruction / obliteration)?   In trance - this is the way it happens - this is current humanity - zombie world. 

 

Some relish the "dickification" of willfulness - and call science and culture "pussification" - it is the option for more expedient means and overrides "all the nonesense" and impingement upon Me-ness - it is Religion - it allows for over-riding all common sense and fairness - it is what holy wars are all about.

 

Some - exhausted by the Roostering of the Dickified and the tunnel vision of reckless abandon and blatant Pecking Order / Alfa Plundering - opt for the bandaids and regulations and law and applied sciences - Protection from Religion

 

It is true that in Protection we can throw the baby out with the bath water - Pure Spirit

And in the vein of Pure Spirit - Willfulness inflates its head into the Headless King as the protector of Pure Spirit.

---

 

There is no simple magic "answer" to the dualistic problems - The unconscious worlds of position and willfulness are "hell" and the cause of all suffering - the grasped worlds.

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Spotless