Yi Jin Jing

[morning dew]

I'm starting to read a little bit about this through Jwing-ming Yang's books. I'm not planning on doing it in the immediate future, but was curious to see if people have done/do it and what you got from it.

 

There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of stuff in the archives on here. I found this video, recommended from about 10 years ago, which looks quite interesting:
 

 

[Taomeow]

I do it on occasion, as a warm-up before a taiji practice.  It is a very good qigong.  "What you got from it" -- hard to tell, the bulk of my practice time is dedicated to taiji, and there's two kinds of taiji people -- the ones who like both qigong and taiji, and the ones who prefer to do some of their taiji as qigong when they're in the mood for qigong.  So I mostly only do yi jin jing  if a practice partner initiates it, and some of them swear by it.  "I might be getting a headache, let's do yi jin jing first, OK?"  "I almost got a cold yesterday, did yi jin jing, stopped it."  So, far as I can tell, people use it very successfully as a pick-me-up, fix-me-fast practice.  Me, I go along with it, but my heart belongs to taiji. 

 

Here's my teacher's version:

 

 

 

[morning dew]

Thanks for the input.  It's interesting to watch his version. It seems to be mainly at the same slow, steady speed. The other guy seems to alternate speed. It's also quite interesting to watch your teacher's analysis at the end.

 

You actually raised some points I had some questions about.

 

According to Jwing-ming this is what Damo's Yi Jin Jing does:

 

Quote

 

The main purpose of Yi Jin Jing training is to change the physical body from weak 
to strong and from sick to healthy. In order to reach this goal, the physical body must 
be stimulated and exercised, and the Qi in the energy body must be regulated. The 
main goals of the training are: 

• To open up the Qi channels and maintain the appropriate level of smooth 
Qi circulation in the twelve primary Qi channels. This maintains the health 
and proper functioning of the related organs. Smooth Qi circulation also 
makes it possible to greatly strengthen the physical body. 
• To fill up the Qi in the two main Qi reservoirs-the Conception and 
Governing Vessels (Ren Mai and Du Mai). The Conception 
Vessel is responsible for regulating the six Yin channels, while the 
Governing Vessel governs the six Yang channels. When an abundant supply 
of Qi is stored in these two vessels, the twelve primary channels can be reg­
ulated effectively. 
• To open the small Qi branches from the primary channels to the surface of 
the skin and maintain healthy conditions for the muscles and skin. 
• For those who also wish to train Xi Sui Jing and reach a higher level, Yi Jin 
Jing training is needed to build up the necessary level of Qi. 

 

 

Some of the questions I had were:

 

• Can you replicate this just by Tai Chi, and, if so, how?
• If you were a millionaire and could have a daily acupuncturist, would you even need to bother with Yi Jin Jing (assuming you did some kind of physical exercise such as running, swimming, weights)?
• What's the difference between Yi Jin Jing and Tai Chi? Is it all the extra martial arts techniques or is it something else?

 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, morning dew said:

Thanks for the input.  It's interesting to watch his version. It seems to be mainly at the same slow, steady speed. The other guy seems to alternate speed. It's also quite interesting to watch your teacher's analysis at the end.

 

You actually raised some points I had some questions about.

 

According to Jwing-ming this is what Damo's Yi Jin Jing does:

 

 

Some of the questions I had were:

 

• Can you replicate this just by Tai Chi, and, if so, how?
• If you were a millionaire and could have a daily acupuncturist, would you even need to bother with Yi Jin Jing (assuming you did some kind of physical exercise such as running, swimming, weights)?
• What's the difference between Yi Jin Jing and Tai Chi? Is it all the extra martial arts techniques or is it something else?

 

 

The version you found I'm not crazy about, to tell you the truth, but the problem is not the speed -- it's the body mechanics of the guy who demonstrates it.  He's got no sung...

 

To your questions:

 

Can you replicate this just by Tai Chi, and, if so, how?

 

Yes, absolutely.  How -- by empirically learning and following all its principles under a good teacher's guidance, practicing, gaining sensitivity, control, command of your body, command of your qi. 

 

If you were a millionaire and could have a daily acupuncturist, would you even need to bother with Yi Jin Jing (assuming you did some kind of physical exercise such as running, swimming, weights)?

 

Oh dear, please, no daily acupuncturist for me.  Acupuncture is useful when something is wrong and needs to be corrected, but it is far from enjoyable.  Millionaire or not, I would be doing exactly what I'm doing -- taiji (including martial applications), qigong (the ones I do regularly are Wang Liping's), swimming, a bit of rock climbing, a bit of yoga, no running, no weights.  I'd summon my personal acupuncturist if I needed to deal with a problem, and shoo him or her away as soon as the problem was corrected (or, alternatively, if acupuncture proved not capable of fixing it.  This happens, in my experience.) 

 

What's the difference between Yi Jin Jing and Tai Chi? Is it all the extra martial arts techniques or is it something else?

 

The difference is, taiji can be practiced as a qigong -- for health, strengthening the body and spirit, healing or preventing illness, but you can also practice and use it as a fighting technique, since it is an internal martial art and is basically designed to turn your whole body into a deadly weapon without taking away from its health and without depleting its vital forces (in fact, it is geared toward replenishing them, not using them up, unlike sports and external MA.)  With yi jin jing or any other qigong I'm aware of, the first part is the same -- health, strengthening the body from the inside out, healing, prevention, perhaps spiritual development and growth toward whatever "non-ordinary" goals  -- but not the second part, since it's not a MA, and you can't use it to kick anyone's ass.    

[Sudhamma]

Yi jin jing, the muscle-tendon changing 'sutra' is a Shaolin practice in nei-kung. It is not taught as a 'relaxation' exercise, "sung" a someone puts it. There is some degree of tension and sync with the breathing method as done by Shaolin practitioners. I will not go for any modified yi-jin-jing and rather learn the more authenticated form, and in which case, is not practised like a taijichuan form.

There is a question whether yi jin jing can be practised like taijichuan. The short answer is if you do that, the purpose and object of the yi jin jing form is lost...and what do you gain from doing that after say, 10 years of wilfully wrong practise? it is just like asking whether a taijichuan form can be practised like a hung-gar chuan, know what I mean?

Edited October 17, 2017 by Sudhamma

[morning dew]

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

The version you found I'm not crazy about, to tell you the truth, but the problem is not the speed -- it's the body mechanics of the guy who demonstrates it.  He's got no sung...

 

That's very interesting. My tai chi teacher was actually talking about sung last night. I find it fascinating the way people like you and Steve are able to pick up such details from watching these videos. I'm awful at noticing things like this lol.

 

 

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

The version you found I'm not crazy about, to tell you the truth, but the problem is not the speed -- it's the body mechanics of the guy who demonstrates it.  He's got no sung...

 

To your questions:

 

Can you replicate this just by Tai Chi, and, if so, how?

 

Yes, absolutely.  How -- by empirically learning and following all its principles under a good teacher's guidance, practicing, gaining sensitivity, control, command of your body, command of your qi. 

 

If you were a millionaire and could have a daily acupuncturist, would you even need to bother with Yi Jin Jing (assuming you did some kind of physical exercise such as running, swimming, weights)?

 

Oh dear, please, no daily acupuncturist for me.  Acupuncture is useful when something is wrong and needs to be corrected, but it is far from enjoyable.  Millionaire or not, I would be doing exactly what I'm doing -- taiji (including martial applications), qigong (the ones I do regularly are Wang Liping's), swimming, a bit of rock climbing, a bit of yoga, no running, no weights.  I'd summon my personal acupuncturist if I needed to deal with a problem, and shoo him or her away as soon as the problem was corrected (or, alternatively, if acupuncture proved not capable of fixing it.  This happens, in my experience.) 

 

What's the difference between Yi Jin Jing and Tai Chi? Is it all the extra martial arts techniques or is it something else?

 

The difference is, taiji can be practiced as a qigong -- for health, strengthening the body and spirit, healing or preventing illness, but you can also practice and use it as a fighting technique, since it is an internal martial art and is basically designed to turn your whole body into a deadly weapon without taking away from its health and without depleting its vital forces (in fact, it is geared toward replenishing them, not using them up, unlike sports and external MA.)  With yi jin jing or any other qigong I'm aware of, the first part is the same -- health, strengthening the body from the inside out, healing, prevention, perhaps spiritual development and growth toward whatever "non-ordinary" goals  -- but not the second part, since it's not a MA, and you can't use it to kick anyone's ass.    

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions. It was all very helpful.

 

So there are actual things acupuncture can't fix that Tai Chi and qigong can? I had no idea. That's fascinating. I always thought acupuncture was the more superior technique that Tai Chi (in part, anyway) and (medical) qigong tried to emulate.

Edited October 17, 2017 by morning dew

[damdao]

Yet another Yijijing

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

"Someone" humbly submits that sung is not the opposite of "tension."  Rather, it is something a whole lot more skill-dependent -- you don't become sung by "relaxing."  And it is something chronic tension does not allow a practitioner to develop.   That's what "someone" saw in the first video.  

 

Also, applying the skill of reading comprehension would reveal this "someone" said "taiji can be practiced as a qigong," not "qigong can be practiced as taiji." 

 

Don't learn from the internet, Sudhamma.  More importantly, don't teach unless asked.  That's part of sung.

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

That's very interesting. My tai chi teacher was actually talking about sung last night. I find it fascinating the way people like you and Steve are able to pick up such details from watching these videos. I'm awful at noticing things like this lol.

 

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions. It was all very helpful.

 

So there are actual things acupuncture can't fix that Tai Chi and qigong can? I had no idea. That's fascinating. I always thought acupuncture was the more superior technique that Tai Chi (in part, anyway) and (medical) qigong tried to emulate.

 

You are very welcome.

 

There's no such thing as a "superior" or "inferior" taoist art -- it all depends on the level of the practitioner.  Taiji has its own levels, and that's where you can compare "superior" and "inferior" -- within a given art.  While acupuncture has its own, and within the art, again, you can compare superior and inferior skill, modest or great attainment.  But medical qigong practitioners focus on developing a different set of skills, which tai chi does not "emulate" --  it's just that gaining command of qi can be applied to different tasks, put to different uses.  Medical can indeed be used to harm at the level of qi mastery, but that's not what the (non-deranged) practitioner is after, the skill bends to the will, to intent.  A surgeon can also stab someone with a scalpel in a bar fight, but that's not what her training is for, and that's not the intent of having it in her pocket. 

 

 

[Sudhamma]

What's in the name? Yijinjing. Legend has it that it was Bodhidharma who taught Yijinjing and Xishuijing to the monks of Shaolin Temple after seeing how fragile and weak were they after long hours of meditation. From the internet, there are a few versions of the "yijinjing". In the Daoist version as shown in the video, the Daoist priest had said that his Yijinjing  was modified with Daoist principles of yangshengshu, the Daoist art of nourishing the body.  All these modified versions were different from each other but capitalising on the name, Yijinjing. Perhaps, I'm not keeping with the times to advise that to learn Yijinjing, learn the authenicated original (or as close to the original as possible) form. The text of Shaolin Yijinjing is still around after these many centuries and one could refer to them. The choice is with the one wishing to learn Yijinjing... its original Shaolin version or something-else with the same name.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Sudhamma

[Taomeow]

"Legend" and "original" are two different things.   Bodhidharma is not part of any lineage.  My teacher is. 

 

Have to amend my earlier "don't learn from the internet" advice.  Don't learn qigong from "documents."  Or as Alan Watts once put it, "don't learn birdsong from stuffed nightingales."    

[Mudfoot]

So you would not spend time learning Mawangdui qigong then? 

 

Right from the tomb, talk about a dead lineage 

[Taomeow]

45 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

So you would not spend time learning Mawangdui qigong then? 

 

Right from the tomb, talk about a dead lineage 

 

I would be curious to see what it has to say, but I would never learn movement from something that does not move.    

 

However, I'm very much interested in the Mawangdui I Ching -- considering I don't have a lineage I Ching master and am a self-taught diviner who used and compared many sources and commentaries to grasp the principles.  With qigong, by the way, I'm pretty sure it would be educational to find out what the manuscripts say, but it would be useless practice-wise to anyone who doesn't already have the gong.  I remember reading Taiji Classics fifteen years ago, but I understood how to use only something like 1%, and then a few years of practice down the road I re-read them and understood how to use about 5%, and then a few more years of practice later, I understand how to use more than a half of what they're talking about.   Whereas an arrogant noob with no teacher to give feedback (or a poor teacher giving poor feedback) might "understand" one hundred percent right off the bat.  I'm slow that way.  Until my body knows what a book (or a teacher) is talking about, I consider myself ignorant.    

Edited October 20, 2017 by Taomeow

[doc benway]

On 10/17/2017 at 9:50 AM, morning dew said:

 

That's very interesting. My tai chi teacher was actually talking about sung last night. I find it fascinating the way people like you and Steve are able to pick up such details from watching these videos. I'm awful at noticing things like this lol.

 

 

It boils down to the fact that taijiquan, like qigong and neigong, is experiential. Three things are needed - a dedicated student, a skillful guide, and a credible lineage. If these things are in place, we come to understand as a result of direct knowing through experience. If we continue on and have the opportunity to teach, it takes the experience to a whole other level because we now need to recognize flaws in others (as well as ourselves) and use our knowledge of the basic principles to find solutions. When I first started teaching, I would constantly run things by my teacher. I'll never forget the time he basically cut me off, saying quite emphatically - no more questions, it's your turn now, you need to figure it out! So it is not that you are awful at noticing things, morning dew, I suspect it is more a matter of not having put in enough years of practice yet. As you feel it in your own body and develop confidence in that knowledge and experience, you will be better able to see it in others. 

 

This really hit home with me when I began reading a marvelous book called The T'ai Chi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo-Lien Ying. I started it when I was about a year into my taiji training. I could understand the first few chapters but beyond that I just didn't get it. After about 6 months I revisited the book and found that more of it made sense. I repeated this over the course of the next few years and eventually the entire book not only made sense but helped me gain deeper understanding. It was necessary to feel things in my body and mind and then the words and concepts made sense and could help guide me further. I've had very similar experience in practicing and reading about meditation and spirituality. 

 

I agree with Taomeow regarding the first video. A few clues are to look at are the shoulders and the continuity (or lack of) of movement when comparing the two videos. I suspect the practitioner in the first video is primarily an external practitioner, at least that's how his body movement and posture look to me. I don't know who he is and I reserve the right to be wrong, as always. External and internal practitioners often take different approaches to qigong forms. When I learned the shiba luohan qigong, I was taught two approaches - external and internal. Each is valid and valuable and they cultivate different benefits. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Morning Dew, dew it, dew it,dew it! You can pick any Chi Gung set and the write us the list of benefits. 

 

With Tai Chi and Chi Gung you will not need acupuncture treatments. Chi Gung is the ammunition, Tai Chi is advanced chi gung and also the weapon to apply the power,timing, distance and angles. Have fun and dew it.

[morning dew]

14 hours ago, steve said:

 

It boils down to the fact that taijiquan, like qigong and neigong, is experiential. Three things are needed - a dedicated student, a skillful guide, and a credible lineage. If these things are in place, we come to understand as a result of direct knowing through experience. If we continue on and have the opportunity to teach, it takes the experience to a whole other level because we now need to recognize flaws in others (as well as ourselves) and use our knowledge of the basic principles to find solutions. When I first started teaching, I would constantly run things by my teacher. I'll never forget the time he basically cut me off, saying quite emphatically - no more questions, it's your turn now, you need to figure it out! So it is not that you are awful at noticing things, morning dew, I suspect it is more a matter of not having put in enough years of practice yet. As you feel it in your own body and develop confidence in that knowledge and experience, you will be better able to see it in others. 

 

This really hit home with me when I began reading a marvelous book called The T'ai Chi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo-Lien Ying. I started it when I was about a year into my taiji training. I could understand the first few chapters but beyond that I just didn't get it. After about 6 months I revisited the book and found that more of it made sense. I repeated this over the course of the next few years and eventually the entire book not only made sense but helped me gain deeper understanding. It was necessary to feel things in my body and mind and then the words and concepts made sense and could help guide me further. I've had very similar experience in practicing and reading about meditation and spirituality. 

 

I agree with Taomeow regarding the first video. A few clues are to look at are the shoulders and the continuity (or lack of) of movement when comparing the two videos. I suspect the practitioner in the first video is primarily an external practitioner, at least that's how his body movement and posture look to me. I don't know who he is and I reserve the right to be wrong, as always. External and internal practitioners often take different approaches to qigong forms. When I learned the shiba luohan qigong, I was taught two approaches - external and internal. Each is valid and valuable and they cultivate different benefits. 

 

Yeah, I've only been at Tai Chi/qigong in a serious way for about a year, so I'm still bumbling around at the moment. It's fascinating to read your post. I shall sit down and look at the two videos again side-by-side. 

Edited October 21, 2017 by morning dew

[damdao]

On 20/10/2017 at 1:28 AM, Sudhamma said:

What's in the name? Yijinjing. Legend has it that it was Bodhidharma who taught Yijinjing and Xishuijing to the monks of Shaolin Temple after seeing how fragile and weak were they after long hours of meditation. From the internet, there are a few versions of the "yijinjing". In the Daoist version as shown in the video, the Daoist priest had said that his Yijinjing  was modified with Daoist principles of yangshengshu, the Daoist art of nourishing the body.  All these modified versions were different from each other but capitalising on the name, Yijinjing. Perhaps, I'm not keeping with the times to advise that to learn Yijinjing, learn the authenicated original (or as close to the original as possible) form. The text of Shaolin Yijinjing is still around after these many centuries and one could refer to them. The choice is with the one wishing to learn Yijinjing... its original Shaolin version or something-else with the same name.

 

I had read this in several books:

 

https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=DTPJpanTizwC&pg=PA421&lpg=PA421&dq=yijinjing+tientai&source=bl&ots=xLniFLs2L9&sig=LjylhkmWNiOF9CJL43j1EkBk2H4&hl=es-419&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidveXb7oHXAhXEHZAKHQZsB_AQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=yijinjing tientai&f=false

 

And user Ray in the Shaolin Wanhan Forum:

 

Dear friends,
I am writing a research paper on Bodhidharma and I came across an interesting argument by a modern historian:

This argument is summarized by modern historian Lin Boyuan in his Zhongguo wushu shi as follows:

As for the “Yi Jin Jing” (Muscle Change Classic), a spurious text attributed to Bodhidharma and included in the legend of his transmitting martial arts at the temple, it was writtin in the Ming dynasty, in 1624 CE, by the Daoist priest Zining of Mt. Tiantai, and falsely attributed to Bodhidharma. Forged prefaces, attributed to the Tang general Li Jing and the Southern Song general Niu Hao were written. They say that, after Bodhidharma faced the wall for nine years at Shaolin temple, he left behind an iron chest; when the monks opened this chest they found the two books “Xi Sui Jing” (Marrow Washing Classic) and “Yi Jin Jing” within. The first book was taken by his disciple Huike, and disappeared; as for the second, “the monks selfishly coveted it, practicing the skills therein, falling into heterodox ways, and losing the correct purpose of cultivating the Real. The Shaolin monks have made some fame for themselves through their fighting skill; this is all due to having obtained this manuscript.” Based on this, Bodhidharma was claimed to be the ancestor of Shaolin martial arts. This manuscript is full of errors, absurdities and fantastic claims; it cannot be taken as a legitimate source. (Lin Boyuan, Zhongguo wushu shi, Wuzhou chubanshe, p. 183)

https://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-4441.html

[gendao]

On 10/19/2017 at 11:28 PM, Sudhamma said:

What's in the name? Yijinjing. Legend has it that it was Bodhidharma who taught Yijinjing and Xishuijing to the monks of Shaolin Temple after seeing how fragile and weak were they after long hours of meditation. From the internet, there are a few versions of the "yijinjing". In the Daoist version as shown in the video, the Daoist priest had said that his Yijinjing  was modified with Daoist principles of yangshengshu, the Daoist art of nourishing the body.  All these modified versions were different from each other but capitalising on the name, Yijinjing. Perhaps, I'm not keeping with the times to advise that to learn Yijinjing, learn the authenicated original (or as close to the original as possible) form. The text of Shaolin Yijinjing is still around after these many centuries and one could refer to them. The choice is with the one wishing to learn Yijinjing... its original Shaolin version or something-else with the same name.

YiJinJing + XiSuiJing basically = Paida Lajin

Wugong (martial arts) foundation steps:
1.  Baduanjin = stretch sinews out until they "break" (similar to "lajin")
2.  YiYinJing = retracting/absorbing movements to transform sinews
These 2 steps shall rebuild your sinews.
3.  XiSuiJing = "paida" (slap hit)
4.  Combining all these 3 practices together = zhuangfa (zhan zhuang)
Using all 3 forces cultivated by them shall then naturally open the microcosmic & macrocosmic orbits in this stance, which then becomes applicable for combat.
5.  Dazuo = sitting meditation after zhan zhuang to cultivate yuanqi down in the dantian, etc.

 

Problem is, most Westerners try to start at 4, or even 5, lol...  And after years of getting nowhere...they may have yet to realize that they had completely skipped 3 whole fundamental steps to begin with!!!

Edited October 22, 2017 by gendao

[Taomeow]

6 hours ago, gendao said:

YiJinJing + XiSuiJing basically = Paida Lajin

Wugong (martial arts) foundation steps:
1.  Baduanjin = stretch sinews out until they "break" (similar to "lajin")
2.  YiYinJing = retracting/absorbing movements to transform sinews
These 2 steps shall rebuild your sinews.
3.  XiSuiJing = "paida" (slap hit)
4.  Combining all these 3 practices together = zhuangfa (zhan zhuang)
Using all 3 forces cultivated by them shall then naturally open the microcosmic & macrocosmic orbits in this stance, which then becomes applicable for combat.
5.  Dazuo = sitting meditation after zhan zhuang to cultivate yuanqi down in the dantian, etc.

 

Problem is, most Westerners try to start at 4, or even 5, lol...  And after years of getting nowhere...they may have yet to realize that they had completely skipped 3 whole fundamental steps to begin with!!!

 

Nah.  I know I often criticize "Westerners," a definition that includes most modern Chinese and other Asians if we are talking education/indoctrination rather than ethnicity, for doing things bass ackwards, but this is neither here nor there.  Baduanjin, which I have practiced too, is in no way a "step one" before yijinjing, and zhan zhuang is not "combining all these three practices together."  And "paida" is not an internal practice at all.  This is a hodgepodge of the very "Western misconceptions" you may want to avoid.  

 

I should make "don't learn from the internet" my sig.  

 

Foundation steps of MA as practiced in Chen village:

start at the age of 4;

by teenage years, practice three times a day, 8 hours a day;

and if you try to skip, get a beating from a father or an uncle.

 

Compare this to how it's done elsewhere, Beijing or Los Angeles, doesn't matter:

start in your 40s; learn from a video of a guy or gal who learned from a video; 

practice three times a month;

get on the internet and teach everybody the One True Way.  Oh, and make your own video of course. 

 

Let me reiterate.  There's many good qigongs.  There's no "supreme ultimate qigong."  Three times a month is not going to make much difference, an hour a day every day will make a big difference if you're doing something good under guidance, not something from the internet on your own "creativity."  Two hours -- well, if you have this much time on your hands for internal cultivation, might as well add taiji to the mix.  Which of them is your forte is discovered only experientially.  If you discover that it is taiji, that's what you're going to be doing, and no, you don't need qigong if you have good taiji, you may want it and who's to stop you, but you don't "need" it. 

 

And vice versa.

 

Everybody needs to learn from a teacher who understands what they want and what they need and can tell the difference.       

Edited October 22, 2017 by Taomeow

[Sudhamma]

On 10/21/2017 at 9:59 PM, damdao said:

Based on this, Bodhidharma was claimed to be the ancestor of Shaolin martial arts. This manuscript is full of errors, absurdities and fantastic claims; it cannot be taken as a legitimate source. 

Quite right that most of the Southern Shaolin schools claim that it was Bodhidharma was the one who brought the fighting arts to China.  So, if you are in one of these schools, your lineage began with Bodhidharma. Bodhidharma was one of the early Buddhist Indian monks who brought with them the (sectarian)"Teachings of the Buddha" to China and with (some of) them, the Indian martial arts. That is why most of the religious altars in these (Southern Shaolin) martial schools would have a portrait of Bodhidharma. The Northern schools, however do not have the same preoccupation with Bodhidharma. When Buddhism took roots in China and became the 'official' state religion,  Buddhism became the religion of refuge for criminals and 'important' people (ex-officers) of the previous regime or dynasty. These people seeking refuge in Buddhist temples brought with them their martial skills and began to propagate their knowledge. Shaolin Temple was such a place of refuge. Truly, we can't attribute Shaolin martial arts to just one man, Bodhidharma.  There was indigenous Chinese fighting arts before Bodhidharma stepped on Chinese soil.

 

Let me also quote : There was a publication, co-researched with the Traditional Medical College of Shanghai and the Shanghai Research Institute of Traditional Chinese Medicine. The book, "300 Questions on Qigong exercises" was published in 1994 by Guangdong Science and Technology Press. In the book, there is a mention of Yijinjing: "Yi Jin Jing (Canon of Changing Muscles) was created by the honored Buddhist Damo. It has become legendary that the honored Bodhidharma came from India in the East and inhabited in Shaolin Temple, where he passed on Mahayana of Buddhist Chan Xiu....The 12-posture moving exercise kept to this day is something that Wang Zuyuan learnt at Shaolin Temple at the Song Mountain."

 

But all these talk is a digression from the OP of Yijinjing. 

 

I've said what I want to say on whether Yijinjing could be practised like taijichuan and my reason for saying it. As said, it is like practising Hung-jia with the softness of taijichuan (and hope that the attributes of Hung-jia would still be intact). It is up to the asker to choose his/her path. 

[Mudfoot]

On 2017-10-22 at 9:39 AM, Taomeow said:

 

I should make "don't learn from the internet" my sig.  

Nooooooo 

 

The business might collaps. 

[Spotless]

My teacher

Edited October 24, 2017 by Spotless

[Sudhamma]

Let's listen carefully to what the reverent monk said in gendao's video: that the Yijinjing is a rudimentary practice of Shaolin Temple's martial curriculum  and he mentioned of the coming of Bohdidharma to Shaolin. Not surprising, he too attributed the martial set of "Damo 18-hands" to Bohdidharma and also the introduction of Yijinjing and Xisuijing. Is Yijinjing + Xisuijing = paida lajin? All the good reverent spoke and showed of Xisuijing was jianbang-gong, a rudimentary "paida", a patting exercise.... one part of a whole, and thus, is incorrect to summarily said Xisuijing is but jianbang-gong, a patting exercise. It was believed that Xisuijing was lost for centuries until recently that the "skill" had surfaced. The Shaolin's text on Yijinjing survived to this day. In spotless's video, another reverent monk demonstrated briefly a form of Yijinjing and the subtitles also attributed the form to Shaolin and inroduced by Bohdidharma. Enough had been said of Yijinjing.

[Mudfoot]

So,  Chinese tradition is to attribute methods to legendary/famous historical persons. It gives weight to your method. 

At the same time,  quite a few teachers change what they have learned, so the tradition changes. And some teachers make it up as they go, using old names to their own inventions. 

 

Looking at your teacher, you might see what result s/he got. But even that is difficult, since many teachers practice multiple methods. 

 

If the third Shaolin lineage have 34 generations, stemming from the 12-hundreds something, a "true" unbroken lineage to Bodhidharma would be around 60 generations by now? 

Is there anyone except David V claiming to be part of that? 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

So,  Chinese tradition is to attribute methods to legendary/famous historical persons. It gives weight to your method. 

At the same time,  quite a few teachers change what they have learned, so the tradition changes. And some teachers make it up as they go, using old names to their own inventions. 

 

Looking at your teacher, you might see what result s/he got. But even that is difficult, since many teachers practice multiple methods. 

 

If the third Shaolin lineage have 34 generations, stemming from the 12-hundreds something, a "true" unbroken lineage to Bodhidharma would be around 60 generations by now? 

Is there anyone except David V claiming to be part of that? 

 

Ancient arts and documented linages are two different things.  Of course qigong, judging by a whole bunch of archeological finds in China, is at least five to six thousand years old and fully indigenous...  but a direct unbroken line six thousand years long...  good luck demonstrating the validity of such a claim.  Which is why legends should never be pitted against documented histories.  It's not even apples and oranges.  It's apples and Xi Wangmu's peaches.  Not saying the peaches are less real.  But proof can't possibly rest on "it's so because I say so" or "my guru says so" or "my scriptures say so."  

 

In my main style I'm 13th generation, it's "only" some 400 years of documented history -- but I know who was who all the way to the founder (the genealogical tree is available and as real as any family tree.)  The only people who changed the forms were the founder's direct descendants, blood relatives, and a talented outsider who was not a blood relative had to call his modified version his own name.  Yang Luchang was his name.  The style he created was not called Chen style anymore.  If his name had been Chen Luchang instead, it would have been "a version" or "a modification."  Or "new frame" or "Beijing school" or whatever.  But no.  It's Yang style, because only a blood relative is allowed to make changes to the family style and still call it the family name.  People who invent those stories about a direct transmission from Bodhidharma (of an indigenous Chinese art to the Chinese, no less) miss out on a whole lot of cultural context. 

 

 All Shaolin's qigongs are rooted in waigong, yet these days it's suddenly in vogue to talk about "internal" arts, so quite a few  waigong practitioners have grown fond of lecturing internal cultivators, practitioners of assorted neigong arts, about how they are doing it all wrong and how theirs (waigongers', hard stylists') whatever-they-do is the "real" this and that.  Not saying waigong is not real.  Apples and Xi Wangmu's peaches though.  Certain apple pie eaters just can't help it, they have to tell the story of how the stuffing of their apple pie is not only a peach but a better peach than Xi Wangmu's peach.  And how Bodhidharma himself planted her garden and baked her pie...  

Edited October 26, 2017 by Taomeow