Believing vs knowing

[Lost in Translation]

Believing vs. Knowing

 

There are things that we know and there are things that we believe. The two are not the same.

 

In my observation, we treat believing as knowing in proxy, i.e. if we believe enough then belief becomes like knowledge to us. Belief and knowledge become fungible, interchangeable. This is quite comforting. It soothes pain, gives stability, provides continuity and makes life much better. This is a good thing. 

 

But despite its goodness, believing is not he same as knowing. I think this is important to remember.

 

 

 

 

[Chang]

You are quite right in saying that believing is not the same as knowing and this is important to remember.

 

Unfortunately with faith believing becomes knowing and herein lies danger.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Chang said:

You are quite right in saying that believing is not the same as knowing and this is important to remember.

 

Unfortunately with faith believing becomes knowing and herein lies danger.

 

Then the faith itself was only believing and not knowing. Faith itself as a word is really a subset of either believing or knowing.

 

[Lost in Translation]

23 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Then the faith itself was only believing and not knowing. Faith itself as a word is really a subset of either believing or knowing.

 

 

If faith is a subset of both believing and knowing then faith loses its value as a descriptor of either one. Is this not the case?

 

I see a spectrum of sorts: belief => faith => knowledge. Each grows "stronger" as we move from left to right. How do we know when belief ends and faith begins? How do we know when faith ends and knowledge begins? Are these questions meaningful, or are we just speaking nonsense? I really don't know.

 

And I suppose that's where this is all going. The phrase "I don't know" is itself knowledge. I am admitting to knowing that I do not know, whereas belief and faith are expressions of hope. I am hoping that I know. Of course there is nothing wrong with hope. Just the opposite actually. But I do feel it is important to know the difference. Or not. I don't know...

[Chang]

31 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Then the faith itself was only believing and not knowing. Faith itself as a word is really a subset of either believing or knowing.

 

 

Yes faith itself is believing rather than knowing but try convincing a religious fanatic that this is so.

[Jeff]

Just now, Lost in Translation said:

 

If faith is a subset of both believing and knowing then faith loses its value as a descriptor of either one. Is this not the case?

 

I see a spectrum of sorts: belief => faith => knowledge. Each grows "stronger" as we move from left to right. How do we know when belief ends and faith begins? How do we know when faith ends and knowledge begins? Are these questions meaningful, or are we just speaking nonsense? I really don't know.

 

And I suppose that's where this is all going. The phrase "I don't know" is itself knowledge. I am admitting to knowing that I do not know, whereas belief and faith are expressions of hope. I am hoping that I know. Of course there is nothing wrong with hope. Just the opposite actually. But I do feel it is important to know the difference. Or not. I don't know...

 

Sure, all a matter of perspective... Could also say that faith ranges from believing (low faith) to true knowing (perfect faith).

[Lost in Translation]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Sure, all a matter of perspective... Could also say that faith ranges from believing (low faith) to true knowing (perfect faith).

 

 I am so glad you mention 'perfect faith'! That is possibly another topic but very much worth pursuing. 'Perfect faith' turns cause and effect on their heads.

[Jeff]

9 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

 I am so glad you mention 'perfect faith'! That is possibly another topic but very much worth pursuing. 'Perfect faith' turns cause and effect on their heads.

 

Yes, with what I call perfect faith, there is direct knowing (or being), as there is no obstruction obscuring the knowing.

[doc benway]

I think this area of inquiry is very valuable, especially if we maintain an open mind about the meaning of symbols (words/concepts) like "knowing, believing, and faith."

 

Knowing sometimes transforms into belief. We know something to be true until we find out it is false, then we can see in retrospect that it was a belief - not knowledge. Examples include every major scientific breakthrough and paradigm shift in history. Another example is the experience of spiritual awakening, what once was knowledge of the way things are is no longer accurate. A deeper, more pervasive, and (arguably) more accurate explanation unfolds and turns what was once knowledge into delusion. The whole concept of knowing and proof is quite interesting and elusive and can be explored on two levels - the intellectual and the spiritual.

 

Belief is acceptance or conviction that an explanation or definition is true in the absence of direct, personal knowledge or experience. It is a useful tool but can be easily corrupted or misused. As a word, it is often used interchangeably with faith. I tend to avoid that equivalence as will be discussed further below.

 

Faith for me conjures up more of a sense of confidence and trust without necessarily implying the acceptance of a specific explanation or body of information. No question that there is a relationship and overlap between faith and belief but there are also important differences. It's all about how each of us understands and uses the symbols. 

 

Knowing and belief tend to be more related to the intellect. Faith tends to be more related to the heart. Knowing and belief often refer to information whereas faith often relates to people. 

 

I like how Alan Watts discusses the relationship between belief and faith:

"We must here make a clear distinction between belief and faith, because, in general practice, belief has come to mean a state of mind which is almost the opposite of faith. Belief, as I use the word here, is the insistence that the truth is what one would “lief” or wish it to be. The believer will open his mind to the truth on the condition that it fits in with his preconceived ideas and wishes. Faith, on the other hand, is an unreserved opening of the mind to the truth, whatever it may turn out to be. Faith has no preconceptions; it is a plunge into the unknown. Belief clings, but faith lets go. In this sense of the word, faith is the essential virtue of science, and likewise of any religion that is not self-deception."

[Wu Ming Jen]

“Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do.”  Bruce Lee

 

Knowing is doing and doing is knowing  Tai Chi Classics.

 

If we believe we can do 900 kicks a day it has no real application, a fairy tale. If we do 900 kicks a day We know we do it and do not pretend to believe it is possible.

 

It seems belief with out proper application  is a fairy tale. when people disagree about fairy tales they split into groups then the groups split into more groups keeping the fairy tale alive but never real..

 

 

[ljazztrumpet]

Wow - great topic. I'll share from my own Lens of perspective very much colored by a lifelong experience in spiritual healing. This is where belief vs knowing is most important to me. After I witness a 'miraculous' healing then my belief becomes a knowing in my own being. 

 

Also - since I've witnessed these types of healings in all different paradigms, I isolate the common dominator - which is love. I consider the idea that love is what heals to be my belief through experience. But the actual healing is a 'knowing' - at least to my being. 

 

Another way to approach this based on what everyone is saying: what we are, is all there is so, therefore, if we keep believing and having faith that a healing will happen, this I've also seen work in many cases. Again though, there are several factors usualy involved. But I do find that common dominator of love to be present in a true, lasting healing. 

 

So I believe that we have to align ourselves with 'Universal Law'. Qualities of this law are what the few great healers in history have talked about: love, kindness, compassion, benevolence, service, humility, etc. 

 

Awareness of non-separation doesn't seem necessary, but it probably helps! And I wonder if cultivating a strong consciousness of love could cause that 'separateness illusion' to dissolve anyway. I hope so! I'm working with all this right now - ill post any 'miraculous' healings!;-)