Is enlightenment really desirable?

[Marblehead]

22 minutes ago, wstein said:

Thanks to all that took this topic seriously and answered in an authentic manner. Too often 'enlightenment' topics go off the rails right away.

Yeah, I stayed out of it as long as I could.  You know about me and serious.  Two different people.

 

 

 

[Will]

23 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Our definitions would probably be a little different. Regarding your current state, the issue is that you have reached the level where you are starting to connect to the people and environment around you, but it is sort of like you are stuck in a hyper reception mode. Like a radio recieving, but no outbound transmission of the energy. Without the balancing transmission, the energy creates a buildup creating the feelings that you are describing. In Taoist terms, you could say that you are starting to realize the upper dantien, but are more yin and need to balance more on the yang side.

 

In some sense that would make sense. Indeed, the way I view the world has changed, but my actions haven't. In your opinion, what might this balancing entail? Being kind? Exercising? 

[Rickie]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 11:44 AM, Will said:

This is a very interesting, provocative question I've been pondering intensely over the last few days. Is it really desirable to become enlightened?

 

By enlightenment, I don't mean becoming a true sage or anything like that, but merely coming to realize basic Taoist "truths" (about how most dualities and desires are simply meaningless human inventions). 

 

Now, many people are very content with their lives when they are not enlightened. Perhaps they work for a charity or have ambitions to become a social activist. They believe that what they are doing is the right thing, and matters a lot.

 

Contrast that with me, who's currently "enlightened" in the sense previously described, and is feeling like nothing has meaning. This does not make me feel very content. Of course, Zhuangzi felt very content, but it took a lot of practice and dedication for him to reach that point. Whereas for those who aren't enlightened, I get the sense that many of them are pretty content without having to put in that kind of dedication.

 

In other words, isn't enlightenment the harder road to contentedness? Might I be better off trying to "forget" Taoism and postmodern philosophy and make myself like a "normal" person? Because what is really the benefit of all this uncertainty and nihilism? 

 

I suppose another question that ties in with this is, "Is happiness the only thing I should want?" I know I've discussed this here before, with no clear answer coming out of it. But, basically, if happiness is the only thing one can really strive for, what benefit have I gained by adding uncertainty and meaninglessness to my life? By contrast, if there is some "higher purpose" than my personal happiness, then perhaps the uncertainly associated with Taoism is okay.

 

I'm not actually considering leaving Taoism; it's just that questions like this really bother me. 

I'm wouldn't know I'm enlightened even if it shined in my face.  I it would be that way.

[silent thunder]

4 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

A boy grows up in a crappy little town. He hates it. It's so boring. Everyone there is old, and stupid.

 

First chance he gets, he moves away. He moves to the big city. He's surrounded by fun, and excitement, and adventure!

 

He meets a girl, falls in love, marries and has children. His career takes off. He makes money. He's successful.

 

His kids grow up. He begins to feel old. He gets tired of the traffic, and the crowds, and the stress. He dreams of a simpler life.

 

One day he retires. He sells the house and moves back to the same crappy little town he grew up in.

 

And he loves it!

Love it!

 

Resonates along the lines of The Giving Tree for me.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Will said:

 

In some sense that would make sense. Indeed, the way I view the world has changed, but my actions haven't. In your opinion, what might this balancing entail? Being kind? Exercising? 

 

With your level of opening, what you are experincing is really pretty common. Ever read the first Jed McKenna book? His energy body situation that is described in the book is actually pretty close to what you are experiencing now. The challenge is that what is happening is sort of beyond simple exercising and being kind, it is more like direct energetic interaction with your surroundings at a subconscious level. Sort of like a big pre-step before what the is often called in many traditions as “turning around” (or 3rd eye stuff).

 

The key here is really making it all more conscious energy movement. Balance with the outbound (transmission) to match with the inbound (reception). Any traditions that you are familiar with or follow? Then, I could recommend some specific practices, in line with your background. Also, feel free to send me a pm if you want some more detailed specifics.

[Spotless]

"A sincere teacher who has experienced Enlightenment" - would be a sincere teacher who has not "experienced Enlightenment.

And those who write such things however much they have pedigree do no know what they are talking about.

 

"experiences of Awakening" are not Awakening.

And certainly one does not have "experiences of Enlightenment" unless ones definition of Enlightenment is quite shallow in understanding.

 

"experiences" - "realizations" - these are wonderful things and  they can be very helpful to teachers. They can also hinder some by leading them astray into thinking they have attained something. But in general these glimpses are helpful - like a quick burst of light on a pitch black trail - suddenly one sees something validating the effort of intentional suffering.

 

Those that have been lead astray are often easily identified - they call most teachers charlatans and money takers and overcharging bullshit artists - but in general this is not the case. Most teachers have Not attained an abidance in an Awakened awareness and far fewer have moved so deeply into the ever unfolding Awareness that they could only be reguarded by others as Enlightened. But this does not mean they are people that should not teach. 

 

And a teacher that charges nothing or something makes no difference at all per se - anyone stuck on that idea is simply stuck in a position surrounding money.

 

The level of fantasy surrounding teachers and how they should be and act and what makes one "acceptable" - most of this would be considered "bullshit" by any true teacher of high regard.

 

We throw the blades around here pretty often and I certainly do my share - but what many wonderful colors arise - so many of a different viewpoint, a different way, a different capacity. There are more "ways" than stars in all the sky's. Some are downright kinky and others so elaborate that little room is left for air.

 

Many of the basics can be very well taught by a teacher that is not Realized (abiding and settled in an Awakened state).

Very few students - seekers - really listen to and absorb what is taught in the basics - or they become extreme experts often on what is being taught but never really "sit on the cushion".

 

If the basics are really heard and practiced - very little guidance is needed - and what guidance is needed will come without fail.

It may have to be sent 100 times because the seeker may not accept the form it has come in - judgemet is a wall that cannot be easily dissolved. Like the guy drowning who asks for God to save him and will not accept the boats or the helicopter - he wants God. He dies and asks god why he did not save him and God says "I sent boats and helicopters but you would not accept them".

 

Most people cannot - could not "hear" an Enlightened Master if he/she were speaking clearly into their ear. Who ever and what ever can help you move through what ever illusion is your passion - practically anything that can pull aside the veil for a second is a treasure hard to come by - people are in love with position and are ever honing their positions into the most comfortable coffins.

 

The quality of a seeker is anything from someone with a budding religious interest to those that have moved well beyond building a cage and moved on to questioning cages - and even the value of bananas. Often a simple teacher that you can accept - whether expensive or poor, loud or soft spoken - humble or even a charlatan - it is absolutely amazing what form a good teacher can take at any particular moment.

[Lost in Translation]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Love it!

 

Resonates along the lines of The Giving Tree for me.

 

That's an awesome poem! I can't believe I never read it before. Thank you for sharing.

[ljazztrumpet]

15 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Love it!

 

Resonates along the lines of The Giving Tree for me.

That one brought tears to my eyes. I keep thinking there must be a better way to do all this!

[ljazztrumpet]

On 10/24/2017 at 7:53 AM, Starjumper said:

 

 

You have to go through hell to get to heaven, you have to become a bit crazy to become sane.  Is that worth it to you?  Only you can tell.

 

 

 

Wait a minute, do really know people who have actually chosen to go through 'hell to get to heaven'? In my own experience, and everyone else I've known, it seems as if Life is forcing us. Do it, or suffer terribly! Again, I keep saying, there must be a better way!

[rene]

12 hours ago, Spotless said:

"A sincere teacher who has experienced Enlightenment" - would be a sincere teacher who has not "experienced Enlightenment.

And those who write such things however much they have pedigree do no know what they are talking about.

 

"experiences of Awakening" are not Awakening.

And certainly one does not have "experiences of Enlightenment" unless ones definition of Enlightenment is quite shallow in understanding.

 

"experiences" - "realizations" - these are wonderful things and  they can be very helpful to teachers. They can also hinder some by leading them astray into thinking they have attained something. But in general these glimpses are helpful - like a quick burst of light on a pitch black trail - suddenly one sees something validating the effort of intentional suffering.

 

Those that have been lead astray are often easily identified - they call most teachers charlatans and money takers and overcharging bullshit artists - but in general this is not the case. Most teachers have Not attained an abidance in an Awakened awareness and far fewer have moved so deeply into the ever unfolding Awareness that they could only be reguarded by others as Enlightened. But this does not mean they are people that should not teach. 

 

And a teacher that charges nothing or something makes no difference at all per se - anyone stuck on that idea is simply stuck in a position surrounding money.

 

The level of fantasy surrounding teachers and how they should be and act and what makes one "acceptable" - most of this would be considered "bullshit" by any true teacher of high regard.

 

We throw the blades around here pretty often and I certainly do my share - but what many wonderful colors arise - so many of a different viewpoint, a different way, a different capacity. There are more "ways" than stars in all the sky's. Some are downright kinky and others so elaborate that little room is left for air.

 

Many of the basics can be very well taught by a teacher that is not Realized (abiding and settled in an Awakened state).

Very few students - seekers - really listen to and absorb what is taught in the basics - or they become extreme experts often on what is being taught but never really "sit on the cushion".

 

If the basics are really heard and practiced - very little guidance is needed - and what guidance is needed will come without fail.

It may have to be sent 100 times because the seeker may not accept the form it has come in - judgemet is a wall that cannot be easily dissolved. Like the guy drowning who asks for God to save him and will not accept the boats or the helicopter - he wants God. He dies and asks god why he did not save him and God says "I sent boats and helicopters but you would not accept them".

 

Most people cannot - could not "hear" an Enlightened Master if he/she were speaking clearly into their ear. Who ever and what ever can help you move through what ever illusion is your passion - practically anything that can pull aside the veil for a second is a treasure hard to come by - people are in love with position and are ever honing their positions into the most comfortable coffins.

 

The quality of a seeker is anything from someone with a budding religious interest to those that have moved well beyond building a cage and moved on to questioning cages - and even the value of bananas. Often a simple teacher that you can accept - whether expensive or poor, loud or soft spoken - humble or even a charlatan - it is absolutely amazing what form a good teacher can take at any particular moment.

(my bold)

 

Agree.

The bell does not un-ring.

Excellent post.

 

warm greetings (-:

[Papayapple]

On 24.10.2017 at 1:58 AM, Lost in Translation said:

I take great comfort in the phrase "I don't know."

 

This is a definitive statement, a fact. It is not pregnant with implicit bias. It does not imply a lack of any sort, nor does it imply judgement. I have no need to know, and my not-knowing is sufficient.

 

This is freedom.

This should be a quote somewhere.

[Starjumper]

7 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Wait a minute, do really know people who have actually chosen to go through 'hell to get to heaven'? In my own experience, and everyone else I've known, it seems as if Life is forcing us. Do it, or suffer terribly! Again, I keep saying, there must be a better way!

 

That is the common theme in descriptions of spiritual advancement.  Maybe put up with it is better than go through it.  Your mention of 'chosen' doesn't really apply.  It's why I said that only a certain character type has the ability to go through it, and they don't do it for that particular reason, it's just a character trait.  You know, stiff upper lip and all that, keep on keeping on in the face of difficulties, that kind of thing.  It's their nature, not so much a choice ... except for the chickens who chose to not face reality.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

On 10/24/2017 at 7:25 PM, Rickie said:

I'm wouldn't know I'm enlightened even if it shined in my face.  I it would be that way.

 

Oh yes you would.  Enlightenment is a sudden and profound shift in your awareness that is unlike anything you would experience otherwise, and this has been written about in some of the descriptions of the experience. It is probably the most amazing thing that a person can experience.   It is like flipping a light switch, and the effect lasts for a day or more.  As it fades thinking returns and then the harder part starts, something which makes some people go crazy or commit suicide.  Warriors will face the music and learn from it, others go to the looney bin.

 

It happened to me so long ago that it has dinosaur shit on it.  Am I enlightened now?  Hell if I know, fuck if I care.  I guess it depends on definitions.  I never was interested in enlightenment, which is the right attitude, and I didn't give a damn about it either before or after it happened, but there's no doubt it was a big deal.  My teacher, who was so psychic that he could see the future, actually gave me a kind of graduation present when I came to chi kung class the week before it happened, and of course I didn't realize that till after the fact.  I guess he just wanted to give me another glimpse of his amazing abilities.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

19 hours ago, Spotless said:

"A sincere teacher who has experienced Enlightenment" - would be a sincere teacher who has not "experienced Enlightenment.

And those who write such things however much they have pedigree do no know what they are talking about.

 

"experiences of Awakening" are not Awakening.

And certainly one does not have "experiences of Enlightenment" unless ones definition of Enlightenment is quite shallow in understanding.

 

Ah, so the great expert from the school of things don't mean what they mean (except for what he says), speaking from profound inexperience, sprays bullshit across the silver screen.  Now I know what Marbles was referring to with his comments about threads on enlightenment, but I'm writing a book so I'm practicing explaining here, while surrounded by all the experts with their interesting questions and 'objections'.

 

It's true that some bozos have a two second epiphany experience, worth maybe 25 cents, and think they had an enlightenment experience but that isn't it

 

It is one great life changing experience which profoundly changes a person's state of being and ignites further alchemical changes.

 

After that what?

 

To answer this question requires learning a little basic kindergarten language usage, which many here seem to have missed.  People say a person is enlightened, well guess what, enlightened has the letters 'ed' at the end.  When the letters ed are put after a word it means it happened in the PAST.  I know that's too simple and straightforward for some to accept and figure that instead it must be some kind of dark conspiracy, but no, it really means that, it is a past experience.  It was an experience which happened in the past.  When you say a person is enlightened it's the same as saying a person was enlightened, but is makes it sound more important and current.  No one who was in the midst of having the experience would be writing on a forum, or anywhere, because the mind abides in silence and emotional bliss and concepts are of no interest.

 

19 hours ago, Spotless said:

Most people cannot - could not "hear" an Enlightened Master if he/she were speaking clearly into their ear.

 

... and Spotless is an excellent example of this.

 

Then he goes on explaining about how anything which is akin to giving a baby their pacifier is worth it.  Well I disagree, spiritual growth is about taking baby's pacifier away and having them grow up.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Starjumper

[rene]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

...

It is one great life changing experience which profoundly changes a person's state of being and ignites further alchemical changes.

 

 

Quote

Then he goes on explaining about how anything which is akin to giving a baby their pacifier is worth it.  Well I disagree, spiritual growth is about taking baby's pacifier away and having them grow up.

 

LOL dragon - you know damn good and well that anything could trigger it and besides, 'spiritual growth'  isn't what he was talking about anyway - but maybe you didn't hear him.

 

[ChiForce]

Nah...it has nothing to do with desire.  Is just that it can happen when you have realized certain truths or to have penetrated the illusions in your life.  It happens because your mind is growing and expending.  The only way you can stop from becoming enlightened, at least towards it, is to grasp and attach to your illusions or your reality.  That may lead to your own suffering or leading others to suffer.  Is like a rabbit hole..it only gets deeper without ends.....   

[rene]

3 minutes ago, ChiForce said:

Is just that it can happen when you have realized certain truths or to have penetrated the illusions in your life.

 

Or not.

 

It can also happen when you are out picking up dog turds from your front lawn.

 

Or not.

 

 

[Starjumper]

10 minutes ago, rene said:

LOL dragon - you know damn good and well that anything could trigger it ... and besides, 'spiritual growth'  isn't what he was talking about anyway - but maybe you didn't hear him.

 

I understood and could agree with that part of what he said but I didn't like his opening volley so I chose not to  =)  but rather to look at the other side.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Starjumper

[rene]

11 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

I understood and could agree with that part of what he said but I didn't like his opening volley so I chose not to  =)  but rather to look at the other side.

You kiddin me? opening volley was spot-on.. and few here other than a couple of us, including you, would've had the stones to say it.

imo, of course.

:curtsey:

heh

[ljazztrumpet]

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

That is the common theme in descriptions of spiritual advancement.  Maybe put up with it is better than go through it.  Your mention of 'chosen' doesn't really apply.  It's why I said that only a certain character type has the ability to go through it, and they don't do it for that particular reason, it's just a character trait.  You know, stiff upper lip and all that, keep on keeping on in the face of difficulties, that kind of thing.  It's their nature, not so much a choice ... except for the chickens who chose to not face reality.

My current idea of things regarding raising our consciousness is that we all 'have to go through it'. And we all, eventually, have the ability go through it. What would 'chickening out' look like? Shooting up more smack? Jumping off a bridge? Still, I think we will eventually have to get there..Life/Existence seems that it will force us sooner or later. 

 

Just this year I had a couple of profound mystical experiences - I went to a place where I was shown where I would be if I were to cross over right at this point in my life. These experiences were separated by several months and the 2nd place was similar to the first, except slightly better. But, in both situations, it was a run-down, depressing type of place. Everyone there with me was just like me! Meaning, they didn't appear to be physically like me (we all still appeared in physical bodies), but their consciousness was right at the level mine was. I had the awareness both times that I knew I would want to come back to reincarnate because I needed to further raise my consciousness. 

 

One of the few great spiritual healers that have lived imo, Bruno Groening, said that we make the most progress here on the earth plane. That there are actually a countless amount of souls waiting to incarnate/reincarnate on the earth for their learning experiences. Even though, when we get here, for most of us on the spiritual path at some point in our lives, we want to just go back and forget about our overzealous decision!;-) I will post a little quote from Alfred Hosp's book, 'Powers of the Spirit' of Bruno. You can read the first 1/2 of the book for free online in PDF. Keep in mind, Bruno was talking with a catholic audience in Germany in the 1940's so he used terms referring to an external god, satan, good, evil, etc.. but this can be easily transferred to metaphors of more of a Oneness/nondual sense of things imo.

 

Bruno speaking to a group in the 1950's:

 

Yes, friends, only here in your bodies are you able, with good will, to accomplish your goal, since on the other side, that is, in the spiritual world beyond this one, where you can’t call any body your own any more, it is much, much harder. So you should be grateful for every day that you are ALLOWED to live. But always live in such a way that you are wiling to learn while you are here, and serve that which is of God. We all have a task that we received before we were born and which we have to accomplish in the span of life that has been made available to us. The length of a human life is predetermined by God. But if someone, from a spiritual point of view does not carry any readiness within them to learn, there then comes an early RECALL, and that means that the person concerned must mentally, spiritually and physically repeat this in a later existence. Such a recall can also happen, however, when other people or the environment of the person concerned renders any further stay on earth meaningless. In this case, all of the people who caused this become responsible and must sooner or later make good the wrong they have done. That is why I must warn you, my dear friends: Beware of prejudging anyone or of not thinking them capable of anything, since by doing so you are taking from them the possibility of achieving what they were capable of, and which in actual fact belonged to their task in life. Even when we are unjustly suspicious of another person we make ourselves guilty and thus burden our own future destiny. It is always the case that every limitation we place on ourselves and on another comes from evil and serves evil, for no one of us has the right to pass sentence on another human being. A human being is never in a position to judge their neighbour, and so it can only ever be a condemnation. Only God himself can really JUDGE everyone. He is ALWAYS just and helps us in every situation. All we have to do is be ready to receive his help and grace, without disturbing the flow of the divine power with any SELFISH DEMANDS.” 

[ljazztrumpet]

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

 

 

It happened to me so long ago that it has dinosaur shit on it.  Am I enlightened now?  Hell if I know, fuck if I care.  I guess it depends on definitions.  I never was interested in enlightenment, which is the right attitude, and I didn't give a damn about it either before or after it happened, but there's no doubt it was a big deal.  

Haha! Yeah man, I can dig it. Yeah, I agree, it really is the right attitude imo. There can be all types of mystical experiences one can have that they define as 'enlightenment'.

 

My own opinion of what an 'enlightened' person looks like is one who has physically and emotionally healed themselves, and can help others do the same. One who exudes a palpable sense of love/kindness/compassion/benevolence/service. These are the type of people I truly respect and admire and who are inspirations to me...and who continue to help me!

Edited October 26, 2017 by ljazztrumpet

[rene]

8 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

 

Bruno speaking to a group in the 1950's:

....

 

Thanks for sharing that, jazz - much wisdom there (-:

[Starjumper]

21 minutes ago, rene said:

You kiddin me?

 

Nope, I'm seriouser than heck!

 

21 minutes ago, rene said:

opening volley was spot-on.. and few here other than a couple of us, including you, would've had the stones to say it.

imo, of course.

:curtsey:

heh

 

You'll have to explain that to me because the way it looks to me is that I've been explaining that enlightenment is an experience, something which can happen to people, and he said it's not an experience, along with a smattering of passive aggressive put downs for anyone that could have  -  you guessed it, experienced this event.  Maybe calling it an event would be more palpable for him, however it's an extended event while the word event implies something brief.  What word would you use if experience is so wrong?  I've been speaking from experience and he is speaking from where?  out his butt?  Has he been reading too much Buddhism lately?  I don't know, but he certainly does have his opinions, doesn't he?

 

[Starjumper]

10 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Wait a minute, do really know people who have actually chosen to go through 'hell to get to heaven'? In my own experience, and everyone else I've known, it seems as if Life is forcing us. Do it, or suffer terribly! Again, I keep saying, there must be a better way!

 

My previous comment needs a little clarification and further explanation.  In the case of spiritual growth or enlightenment the going through hell part applies to the process of meditation, and specifically the part in meditation where a person has to face their dark side, a person has to face it and keep on facing it, till they get through every single thing in their entire lives that may (or may not) have contributed to negative karma, and then understand and forgive themselves.  This is how you get to heaven.

 

This is a fairly common theme in mythology, as explained by Joseph Campell.  He likened it to the myths where the hero of the story has to enter a dark cave of fear, they have to go all the way in the cave, and if they can do that they come out the other side a changed person, a hero, etc.

 

 So I do't really think there is a better way.  In fact this is the best way.  The best way to heal, to accept and love yourself the way you really are, your real self, dark side and everything.

 

Another thing that happens is that we realize, when we read or hear about some really bad news, is that we have inside of ourselves the potential to be really dark and are able to empathize with the most evil things that we hear about.  That also needs to be embraced.  As they say, embrace your dark side but move towards the light.

 

Now it seems that a lot of people don't really want to go through this.  When they start facing their dark side they don't like it and quit meditating.

 

OK, NOW, I can go back to bed.  I'll read your other long post tomorrow.  Thank you for your question.

[ljazztrumpet]

2 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

My previous comment needs a little clarification and further explanation.  In the case of spiritual growth or enlightenment the going through hell part applies to the process of meditation, and specifically the part in meditation where a person has to face their dark side, a person has to face it and keep on facing it, till they get through every single thing in their entire lives that may (or may not) have contributed to negative karma, and then understand and forgive themselves.  This is how you get to heaven.

 

This is a fairly common theme in mythology, as explained by Joseph Campell.  He likened it to the myths where the hero of the story has to enter a dark cave of fear, they have to go all the way in the cave, and if they can do that they come out the other side a changed person, a hero, etc.

 

 So I do't really think there is a better way.  In fact this is the best way.  The best way to heal, to accept and love yourself the way you really are, your real self, dark side and everything.

 

Another thing that happens is that we realize, when we read or hear about some really bad news, is that we have inside of ourselves the potential to be really dark and are able to empathize with the most evil things that we hear about.  That also needs to be embraced.  As they say, embrace your dark side but move towards the light.

 

Now it seems that a lot of people don't really want to go through this.  When they start facing their dark side they don't like it and quit meditating.

 

OK, NOW, I can go back to bed.  I'll read your other long post tomorrow.  Thank you for your question.

Yep, although I think things like meditation (and qi gong) are great practices, I find Life doesn't find that absolutely necessary to 'get you'. These things you mention all just happen anyway. Although I think these practices do accelerate things.

 

BTW, it's not the 'best way'! I haven't figured that one out yet!