Is enlightenment really desirable?

[blue eyed snake]

12 hours ago, C T said:

its bodhi. 

 

moving on.. 

 

do you say here that the term bodhi means what is talked about in that video?

[C T]

26 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

do you say here that the term bodhi means what is talked about in that video?

 

It was actually a response to 9th's misspelling of the word (bhodi). I thought it was important should someone take an interest in looking for the meaning. But yeah, basically its the same concept as the message in the video. Bodhi roughly translates to mean a buddha's faultless, untainted, perfect vision of the nature of reality, something that is not beyond the reach of all human beings, according to Mahayana beliefs. In essence, the way towards such a vision is to remain unfettered by delusion (as ascribed to in the video) so that the continuous flow of conscious awareness of the nature of reality remains unhindered. 

 

 

_/\_

Edited October 27, 2017 by C T

[blue eyed snake]

1 minute ago, C T said:

 

It was actually a response to 9th's misspelling of the word (bhodi). I thought it was important should someone take an interest in looking for the meaning. But yeah, basically its the same concept as the message in the video. Bodhi roughly translates to mean a buddha's faultless, untainted, perfect vision of the nature of reality, something that is not beyond the reach of any human beings. In essence, the way towards such a vision is to remain unfettered by delusion (as ascribed to in the video) so that the continuous flow of conscious awareness of the nature of reality remains unhindered. 

 

_/\_

 

 

thank you

[Stosh]

While the enlightenment experience may shed light on the foundations of human mind , , I am thinking that it is the job of an  enlightenment education ,might be said to shed light on the foundations of reality itself. Nor does understanding the false nature of self , guarantee that one will be compassionate , in fact , considering the world not to be 'real' can suggest that there is no need to consider others as having worth at all. One must go yet another step and re-see the mountains from the other side , whether that's recognized or not by the experiencer.  (Sensing gravity does not unravel it's equation, and the equation, does not predict its distribution. . though they are related but who should care ? if this is not brought back to improving the world as it is experienced , illusions and all ) 

[C T]

35 minutes ago, Stosh said:

While the enlightenment experience may shed light on the foundations of human mind , , I am thinking that it is the job of an  enlightenment education ,might be said to shed light on the foundations of reality itself. Nor does understanding the false nature of self , guarantee that one will be compassionate , in fact , considering the world not to be 'real' can suggest that there is no need to consider others as having worth at all. One must go yet another step and re-see the mountains from the other side , whether that's recognized or not by the experiencer.  (Sensing gravity does not unravel it's equation, and the equation, does not predict its distribution. . though they are related but who should care ? if this is not brought back to improving the world as it is experienced , illusions and all ) 

From the Mahayana perspective, its not that the self is false, but the notion of an independently existing entity (as the self) that is truly false. When this is realised, it is said that compassion will arise spontaneously from having uncovered the clear sightedness of dependent origination. At around the same time that this clarity begins to reveal its unbounded essence, the aspiring bodhisattva will actually begin to gradually discard arrogant notions of self-independence, and this in turn will arouse compassionate views that will eventually lead the aspirant to consider others (the bodhisattvas are first taught conceptually to regard all beings as having been their parents at one time or another) as even more important than the self-ideating self, if that makes any sense. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by C T

[Wu Ming Jen]

A great prescription for enlightenment is to get rid of desire and wipe enlightenment from the mind.

[Stosh]

40 minutes ago, C T said:

From the Mahayana perspective, its not that the self is false, but the notion of an independently existing entity (as the self) that is truly false. When this is realised, it is said that compassion will arise spontaneously from having uncovered the clear sightedness of dependent origination. At around the same time that this clarity begins to reveal its unbounded essence, the aspiring bodhisattva will actually begin to gradually discard arrogant notions of self-independence, and this in turn will arouse compassionate views that will eventually lead the aspirant to consider others (the bodhisattvas are first taught conceptually to regard all beings as having been their parents at one time or another) as even more important than the self-ideating self, if that makes any sense. 

It makes sense , yes, as a belief , and I am comfortable that you have the better grasp of that tradition than I do. But any person can indulge in compassion , there's no need to experience this enlightenment to do that, and subsequent to introducing this new perspective one is Still compelled to maintain themselves within the corporeal world ,

,,yes one may see life as more as a game or play , and yes they may take things with a grain of salt , and yes they may feel more freedom to pursue what is in their heart and yes they may extend the concern for self to others , but the impact of the senses , the conclusions drawn within the context of this living story ,still exert much of the weight they did before. Show me an apple and I will still see it as red , despite knowing this red color is a mental fabrication , and despite knowing the world is an interwoven field , and I will still judge whether it looks like one of the Rome apples I don't like , or Fuji , which I do,,, my taste buds will still convey apple, and not steak , to my mind. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Stosh

[9th]

People are certainly talking about enlightenment all the time.  Yet there is very little talk about desire.

 

It seems that having such little consideration for the gravitational effects of magnetism could certainly skew your accumulation of observational data when such a fundamental pivot is in play, especially when regarding the reactionary stance involved.

 

A projection moves from the inside out.  A reception moves from the outside in.  In the case of awareness which is beyond a subject-object relationship, such directional considerations are not applicable.

 

Quote

 I start at the core of the Mahayana tradition, which is wisdom and compassion. Wisdom is the living energy that comes from the insight that there are no fixed points in reality, an insight that is sometimes called emptiness. We go searching for fixed reference points like a you and a me, and we don’t find anything, so it’s said that the not finding is the great finding. It’s liberating; it’s openness. And with the loss of any fixed reference point, including the loss of self, one can more easily be present with other living beings, hence empathy or compassion. So compassion is the living proof that one is in the process of embodying the wisdom insights.

 

Those twin energies of wisdom and compassion are the operating system or the lubricant that makes possible all of Vajrayana, which can be seen as dancing with the apparent display that arises in one’s mind. It proclaims that everything can be worked with, or even played with. So it’s sometimes called the upayayana, the vehicle of many methods, each applied according to an individual’s temperament—calm, domesticated, wild, feral, you name it.

 

When wisdom has been completely and thoroughly achieved, then it has to relate with something. It has to relate with its own radiation, its own light. When light begins to shine, it reflects on things. That is how we know whether it is bright or dim. Therefore, when light is very brilliant, when it reflects on things properly and fully, we know that there is some kind of communication taking place. 

 

 Since light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces.

 

- Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche

 

[Stosh]

The Rinpoche would have made a good Daoist. 

[C T]

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

It makes sense , yes, as a belief , and I am comfortable that you have the better grasp of that tradition than I do. But any person can indulge in compassion , there's no need to experience this enlightenment to do that, and subsequent to introducing this new perspective one is Still compelled to maintain themselves within the corporeal world ,

,,yes one may see life as more as a game or play , and yes they may take things with a grain of salt , and yes they may feel more freedom to pursue what is in their heart and yes they may extend the concern for self to others , but the impact of the senses , the conclusions drawn within the context of this living story ,still exert much of the weight they did before. Show me an apple and I will still see it as red , despite knowing this red color is a mental fabrication , and despite knowing the world is an interwoven field , and I will still judge whether it looks like one of the Rome apples I don't like , or Fuji , which I do,,, my taste buds will still convey apple, and not steak , to my mind. 

'Indulge in compassion' - you have framed it nicely. Indulgence implies selectiveness, as with your apple analogy, but what do you think will be the likelier outcomes when one dismantles this selective processing? Are you thinking that there is no means by which the senses can be transcended? I assure you its not that difficult to simply rest in pervasive awareness without the least fluttering of any of the sense doors. 

[silent thunder]

Not so much indulging in compassion as compassion naturally arising in the emptiness and clarity of foundational awareness.

 

Compassion, clarity, emptiness, arise it seems from awareness the way light and heat arise from a star.

No effort, no seeking... natural beingness.

[Stosh]

16 minutes ago, C T said:

'Indulge in compassion' - you have framed it nicely. Indulgence implies selectiveness, as with your apple analogy, but what do you think will be the likelier outcomes when one dismantles this selective processing? Are you thinking that there is no means by which the senses can be transcended? I assure you its not that difficult to simply rest in pervasive awareness without the least fluttering of any of the sense doors. 

Oh no , I am certain the 'senses' can be obviated , just as you say , but they Will intrude again , unless you go into a coma.

It has been said that one can reasonably consider the retina , as an extension of the brain ,

with this in mind it should be clear that a direct feed into the processing areas of the brain could be hard to ignore.

To maintain the body one must play the game of hunting up chow, and all the rest ,

this forces us to deal with the rest of the universe from the point of view of an individual , at some point.

Though certainly you can open eyes and see nothing , listen and hear nothing , sniff and smell nothing, or abide and think nothing.

Being forced by the physical need presents a problem of reconciling the world as a physical place with things in it ,minds with ideas in it ,

VS the lack of basis for considering these things as having external solidity.  

You may rest , but you Will get up again. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Stosh

[cold]

11 minutes ago, C T said:

'Indulge in compassion' - you have framed it nicely. Indulgence implies selectiveness, as with your apple analogy, but what do you think will be the likelier outcomes when one dismantles this selective processing? Are you thinking that there is no means by which the senses can be transcended? I assure you its not that difficult to simply rest in pervasive awareness without the least fluttering of any of the sense doors. 

 

1 minute ago, silent thunder said:

Not so much indulging in compassion as compassion naturally arising in the emptiness and clarity of foundational awareness.

 

Compassion, clarity, emptiness, arise it seems from awareness the way light and heat arise from a star.

No effort, no seeking... natural beingness.

 

"rest in pervasive awareness without the least fluttering of any of the sense doors."

 

Simple in a temple or other sacred place.

Nigh on improbable if not impossible out amongst the unwashed masses.

At least for any length of time...

 

"No effort, no seeking... natural beingness"

 

Try driving a car with no effort no seeking.

Grocery shopping, walking down a crowded street with no effort no seeking.

In the world but not of it?

[rene]

21 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Not so much indulging in compassion as compassion naturally arising in the emptiness and clarity of foundational awareness.

 

Compassion, clarity, emptiness, arise it seems from awareness the way light and heat arise from a star.

No effort, no seeking... natural beingness.

 

After first reading the DDJ 40 yrs ago, I asked Laozi for more... more of his words! lol

 

This is what he whispered in my ear:

 

What could I show you

that you have not already seen?

 

What could I tell you

that you have not already heard?

 

What could you learn

that you do not already understand?

 

There is no need to be kind, just be yourself.

Kindness comes naturally.

 

There is no need to be just.

As a whole human, you are already just.

 

Being who you are in your heart,

brings everything.

 

You already know these things.

They are naturally known, because they are natural.

 

What more could I say that would be of any use?

 

Seems Laozi agrees with your idea, silent thunder. (-:

 

warm greetings

[C T]

23 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Oh no , I am certain the 'senses' can be obviated , just as you say , but they Will intrude again , unless you go into a coma.

It has been said that one can reasonably consider the retina , as an extension of the brain ,

with this in mind it should be clear that a direct feed into the processing areas of the brain could be hard to ignore.

To maintain the body one must play the game of hunting up chow, and all the rest ,

this forces us to deal with the rest of the universe from the point of view of an individual , at some point.

Though certainly you can open eyes and see nothing , listen and hear nothing , sniff and smell nothing, or abide and think nothing.

Being forced by the physical need presents a problem of reconciling the world as a physical place with things in it ,minds with ideas in it ,

VS the lack of basis for considering these things as having external solidity.  

You may rest , but you Will get up again. 

Why must it be a game when there is a choice to do these things authentically, with the sort of engagement that enables you to partake of all seemingly mundane activities with total involvement, leaving no gaps nor venturing forth with hesitance?

 

Bypassing sense inputs implies immediacy - it means the  end of separation - no contraction, nil anxiety, and conflict-free between you and that which commands your attention in the moment, whatever that may be, even if that is something as basic as becoming one with your breath. To be able to function on such a level surely does not mean open eyes and see nothing , listen and hear nothing , sniff and smell nothing, or abide and think nothing - if anything, it is the exact opposite of what you have been taught to believe. 

[Spotless]

35 minutes ago, cold said:

 

 

"rest in pervasive awareness without the least fluttering of any of the sense doors."

 

Simple in a temple or other sacred place.

Nigh on improbable if not impossible out amongst the unwashed masses.

At least for any length of time...

 

"No effort, no seeking... natural beingness"

 

Try driving a car with no effort no seeking.

Grocery shopping, walking down a crowded street with no effort no seeking.

In the world but not of it?

In the world and no problem - the solution is not to "try ...... with no effort no seeking - that is an inertia of itself.

 

The winds of inertia pull and grasp and hinder the still awareness - but once in abidance the world "outside" offers up great beauty and it can actually aid in abidance. This is not so totally foreign to all of us - striking brilliant sunsets - music which "suspends" us - often we are stopped and sit in still awareness - then we move on to "more important things".

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Spotless

[rene]

19 minutes ago, cold said:

 

 

"rest in pervasive awareness without the least fluttering of any of the sense doors."

 

Simple in a temple or other sacred place.

Nigh on improbable if not impossible out amongst the unwashed masses.

At least for any length of time...

 

You are right, when the 'resting' is contrived, or part of the 'either/or' mindset. With a blended perspective, it's easy and as natural as breathing - for more than 'resting' is at play.

 

19 minutes ago, cold said:

"No effort, no seeking... natural beingness"

 

Try driving a car with no effort no seeking.

Grocery shopping, walking down a crowded street with no effort no seeking.

In the world but not of it?

 

For me, yes, both, same time. Some traditions hold that it must be one or the other; I find no need to exclude or deny one half of the whole.

 

warm regards

[rene]

19 minutes ago, C T said:

To be able to function on such a level surely does not mean open eyes and see nothing , listen and hear nothing , sniff and smell nothing, or abide and think nothing - if anything, it is the exact opposite of what you have been taught to believe.

Yeppers!

 

Why is it, then, that traditions (D and B ) teach giving up self, when they could be teaching giving up only self?

 

Why not teach 'Both' from the start?

Edited October 27, 2017 by rene
change should to could

[Bud Jetsun]

Desire is a type of conditional, optional, and fleeting choice to trade appreciation of what is, for a self-arising fantasy of what may be or yet-to-be.   This doesn't make it good or bad anymore than using one's eyes to look around is good or bad. 

 

Enlightenment doesn't impose any restrictions on choosing to experience states of being. If an enlightened being chooses to speak or write, he is making this choice consciously to generate inherently dualistic and relative expressions (words).   

 

A choice is all that's needed to create or uncreate desire for anything to the limits of one's creativity and mindfulness. 

 

Enlightenment does not include any shackles of limitations in which mindful choices that being is free or not free to choose to explore or experience. 

 

Through the same mechanism one may apply attention towards pondering if enlightenment is desirable, one remains equally enlightened and equally experiencing the whole of real, though whatever choices in pondering is serving as the narrow attention conduit with the functionality of replacing/blocking/covering conscious perception/awareness of the real. 

 

Each being shares a blazing, perfect, and indifferent essence which desires nothing and experiences everything.  The moment a single arising of thought is given attention over appreciation of the real, the 'non-enlightened'  state illusion dependently arises a fleeting fantasy of whatever experiencing this one moment may be (good, bad, desired, undesired, etc). 

 

Dao remains all perfect, even the illusions of imperfections remain all perfect. Human thought paths leading to choosing labels, limitations,  and preferences in appreciation of phenomena contains the whole of the illusion of separation from Dao. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

[Stosh]

17 minutes ago, C T said:

Why must it be a game when there is a choice to do these things authentically, with the sort of engagement that enables you to partake of all seemingly mundane activities with total involvement, leaving no gaps nor venturing forth with hesitance?

 

Bypassing sense inputs implies immediacy - it means the  end of separation - no contraction, nil anxiety, and conflict-free between you and that which commands your attention in the moment, whatever that may be, even if that is something as basic as becoming one with your breath. To be able to function on such a level surely does not mean open eyes and see nothing , listen and hear nothing , sniff and smell nothing, or abide and think nothing - if anything, it is the exact opposite of what you have been taught to believe. 

 

You brought up the ' no fluttering of the sense doors ' that's not necessarily being completely open to sensory input , it can be seen as being entirely the opposite,

and in the context of meditation to get to enlightenment , sensory input and idea generation are put on a shelf. 

 

Why must it be a game when there is a choice to do these things authentically, with the sort of engagement that enables you to partake of all seemingly mundane activities with total involvement, leaving no gaps nor venturing forth with hesitance?

 

Because the whole point was to demonstrate the unreality at the heart of individual identity , so looking at the world afterward , you know you don't last forever as this meatbag  , nor can you die, nor does one need to be stuck in bad reflexive habits , nor is there alone-ness nor does one need to vilify , nor must one never-forgive and so forth.

This is why truth sets ye free, no magic needed , no presumptive conclusion that compassion must be  an inevitable progression.

I'm sure you see that most bums want to be even kinder gentler mushier than we are already , its just that exaggeration of this appears untenable. 

 

You say why 'must' it be game , but its really , that as a game , silly fears or mechanisms may finally be dropped,

 there's no reason why one cannot still be totally invested in their life, its just that the rules have become.. fungible. 

 

 

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, cold said:

 

 

"rest in pervasive awareness without the least fluttering of any of the sense doors."

 

Simple in a temple or other sacred place.

Nigh on improbable if not impossible out amongst the unwashed masses.

At least for any length of time...

 

"No effort, no seeking... natural beingness"

 

Try driving a car with no effort no seeking.

Grocery shopping, walking down a crowded street with no effort no seeking.

In the world but not of it?

no effort, no seeking

but presence.

 

my take on wei wu wei has evolved from 'doing without doing'

to 'doing without forcing'.

 

I'm reminded of one of Bucky Fuller's very realized quotes...  'never work against forces... use them.'

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, rene said:

 

After first reading the DDJ 40 yrs ago, I asked Laozi for more... more of his words! lol

 

This is what he whispered in my ear:

 

What could I show you

that you have not already seen?

 

What could I tell you

that you have not already heard?

 

What could you learn

that you do not already understand?

 

There is no need to be kind, just be yourself.

Kindness comes naturally.

 

There is no need to be just.

As a whole human, you are already just.

 

Being who you are in your heart,

brings everything.

 

You already know these things.

They are naturally known, because they are natural.

 

What more could I say that would be of any use?

 

Seems Laozi agrees with your idea, silent thunder. (-:

 

warm greetings

what an incredible whisper!

 

Thank you for sharing this!

 

The reason there is no more... can be no more seeking and no more effort blossoms from the realization of how can seeking ever bring me to that which I already am?  Through what effort would I change what aspect of the all in all, that is all that there is?  Light cannot shine on itself. 

 

When this realization is allowed to bloom... such joyous laughter cascades whenever the old manners of approaching, seeking and striving are pondered... no regret at time wasted, no longing, or abuse that it took me how many years to notice... only a clear, bouyant love of the pure beingness and open clarity of bliss in the release~  such freedom!

 

*deep bow*  Much Love rene!

 

Truly it seems that, 'that which is, is that which is'... "if I understand. the universe is as it is... if I do not understand, the universe is as it is."   

[Spotless]

It is wonderfully clear here just how much transcendence has taken place over the past year at TDB's

[C T]

1 hour ago, rene said:

Yeppers!

 

Why is it, then, that traditions (D and B ) teach giving up self, when they could be teaching giving up only self?

 

Why not teach 'Both' from the start?

Not sure about tradition D, but tradition B certainly does not encourage giving up self, nor renouncing only self. What tradition B does encourage, however, is to find out for oneself if life is lived better when there is a strong clinging onto notions of an independently existing self. If the answer is yes, then one must therefore live the truth of that assertion; to do otherwise is what creates conflict, and conflict, as we know, can wreak havoc on so many levels. If the answer is no, again, one follows the same path of living accordingly. What can cause confusion though is the tendency to live undecidedly, switching from one mindset to another so as to fit the self to situations, when in fact, upon searching with some fearless honesty, its clear this cannot be effectively done, because repeatedly, one will likely come upon a small problem - and this problem is that 99.9% of all our thoughts, our internal and external dialogues, our actions, are all done for the mere ideas we hold of a self-existing entity known as 'Myself'. Herein lies the eternal damnation of existence - we want to fit a made-up, illusory self to situations, when all the while, the wise move would be to enable the intelligent or enlightening aspect of consciousness to create situations whereby one does not become duped by the falsity of such a fence-hopping premise.

 

When we finally tire of chasing after something non-existent (no mountains, right?), what happens? For some of us, this can result in the realisation that we have exhausted all our options, and finally, in our frail-like non-self we let go, or give up.. the clinging falls away. When the clinging to that which we mistakenly cherish more than anything else in the world ends, the subsequent result can get very interesting... So in tradition B, practitioners are told to devote attention to that process, usually thru contemplative practices. Its a lifetime's work for me and some of the folks I know here, and away from here. 

[Bud Jetsun]

Expressable or conceptualized 'human understanding' is another label describing a confusion further separating awareness of the real.

 

Compassion can not be acquired or stored in a notion or a box, as it's manifestion arises only in this one moments choice to exist and behave. 

 

The Zen masters stick strikes hard upon sensation rich locations in compassion for that beings liberation. The water passing through a hot dry mouth delivers its sensation in compassion for that beings liberation. Bones snap and nerves spasm with rich sensation in compassion for that beings liberation.  The sunshines, the flowers bloom and the birds fly, thunder strikes and rain falls in compassion for that beings liberation.  Heart flows its last pump and diaphragm makes it's final contraction in compassion for that beings liberation. 

 

The dao is compassion and compassion itself does not exist beyond the choice of how we use this one moment. 

 

No extra moment to waste. Each breath is so precious, if you had a room filled with all the worlds splendors and no breaths, one may discover a deeper appreciation for each respiration as a precious gift.  No matter the nature or state of experiential phenomenona, only a single beings choices remain between unbounded appreciation of what may be. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

Edited October 27, 2017 by Bud Jetsun