Is enlightenment really desirable?

[C T]

1 minute ago, Gunther said:

Oh yes, that's called alchemy😀

 

Only seemingly so, at the initial novice-like stages. 

 

Upon mastery, the transformation happens so spontaneously that it will appear as if nothing had transpired. 

In Vajrayana, this is sometimes known as Liberation upon arising. Metaphorically speaking, one can imagine the gathering of dew on the surface of a lotus leaf... as the dew drops become denser and merge, they roll off the leaf by virtue of their own action and volitional force - the leaf exerts no effort at all, but merely retain its own natural state and resting in that. In this view, no alchemical process have taken place, but to the observer, it may appear that some intimate manipulation had occurred.  

[Gunther]

20 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Only seemingly so, at the initial novice-like stages. 

 

Upon mastery, the transformation happens so spontaneously that it will appear as if nothing had transpired. 

In Vajrayana, this is sometimes known as Liberation upon arising. Metaphorically speaking, one can imagine the gathering of dew on the surface of a lotus leaf... as the dew drops become denser and merge, they roll off the leaf by virtue of their own action and volitional force - the leaf exerts no effort at all, but merely retain its own natural state and resting in that. In this view, no alchemical process have taken place, but to the observer, it may appear that some intimate manipulation had occurred.  

Of course. 

Be natural and spontaneous and the Unborn appears.

Zen master Bankei

 

All just figures of speech.

Or we had nothing to talk about😀😀😀

 

It is quite surprising how initially one can be overtaken by anger, pierced by jelousy, and never know it.

But in awareness it is clearly seen arising, passing, leaving without a trace.

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Gunther

[SeekerOfHealing]

You guys do not know even what you are talking about. C T is only intellectual. The old guy who practice qigong is also very low level. I sad that there are many cultivated and enlightenment people who can point out everything out. 

[Gunther]

11 minutes ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

You guys do not know even what you are talking about. C T is only intellectual. The old guy who practice qigong is also very low level. I sad that there are many cultivated and enlightenment people who can point out everything out. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Gunther

[C T]

4 minutes ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

You guys do not know even what you are talking about. C T is only intellectual. 

 

Your power of awareness is beyond astute, man! Not sure if a congratulatory or a commiseratory note is in order. 

 

Perhaps you would like to demonstrate how to step beyond the intellectual threshold in a discussion forum, eh? While you are working that out, you might also want to ask yourself, with some level of seriousness, when will you tire of appealing to condescension and passing flippant remarks in every single post you make here? Do you honestly live in the delusion that so doing will somehow magically add credibility to your online presence? Do you actually invest any time in doing some self-analysis to see how wonderfully non-effective and disorganised your views are? Personally, I don't take anything you say with any amount of seriousness, but to each his own, i guess. 

 

 

 

[SeekerOfHealing]

You can know anybody level of cultivation just by looking or hearing them. It's very simple if you practice. 

[C T]

3 minutes ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

You can know anybody level of cultivation just by looking or hearing them. It's very simple if you practice. 

 

My sentiments exactly. 

[SeekerOfHealing]

When I say that do not get mad, just cultivation more to get right insight and wisdom. You only develop thinking and concepts CT. That's just true. It will bring nothing to other people, that all you know so that all you are into. Take this advice to look something beyond you actual limits.

[Gunther]

21 minutes ago, C T said:

While you are working that out, you might also want to ask yourself, with some level of seriousness, when will you tire of appealing to condescension and passing flippant remarks in every single post you make here?

Maybe a sniper?😀😀😀

[C T]

11 minutes ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

When I say that do not get mad, just cultivation more to get right insight and wisdom. You only develop thinking and concepts CT. That's just true. It will bring nothing to other people, that all you know so that all you are into. Take this advice to look something beyond you actual limits.

 

Thanks, but this is a gift that i am unable to accept, thus let it remain in your good keep. 

[blue eyed snake]

3 hours ago, C T said:

For example, rising anger can simultaneously contain the potential for further aggression and results thereof, or the concentrated energy that occurs in that moment can be used as a cause for liberation to occur instantaneously by cutting through and transforming that particular energy into its enlightening equivalent. The same applies to all other emotional arisings. 

 

yes

[Mudfoot]

Called the doubt principle. Doubt build frustration, frustration might lead to insight. Or alkoholism. 

[cold]

7 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Called the doubt principle. Doubt build frustration, frustration might lead to insight. Or alkoholism. 

 

No doubt.

[Gunther]

30 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Called the doubt principle. Doubt build frustration, frustration might lead to insight. Or alkoholism. 

Yep, the latter is called spirit(uality)

Edited November 10, 2017 by Gunther

[Starjumper]

4 hours ago, C T said:

Your power of awareness is beyond astute, man! Not sure if a congratulatory or a commiseratory note is in order. 

 

Well it must be comforting to know that there is someone here who is an expert on the condition of everyone else, not to mention his expert advice!

[Mudfoot]

I wish I was that guy. Because then youwouldworshipmeandIWOULDTOTALLYRULETHEDAOBUms (ehm carry on everybody nothing to see here )

[Marblehead]

Ah!, the desire for enlightenment.  What a contradiction of concepts.

 

[Gunther]

36 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Ah!, the desire for enlightenment.  What a contradiction of concepts.

 

Yes, a funny one

Like the desire to have no desire

The fear of being afraid

Goes over my head a bit, which is easy😀

[Gunther]

The opposite is actually true.

The desire for liberation is the desperate clinging on to desire as a last resort. Without desire and suffering the notion of separate self/ego can't exist for long. It will fight to survive and the desire to have no desire is a clever strategy.

In reality once you understand the futility of desire that's it, finished.

Once you've suffered enough, well, never more than enough they say😀it's optional.

Of course you can still ponder impermanence

Edited November 10, 2017 by Gunther

[C T]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

 

The fear of being afraid

 

 

is actually a recognised debilitating condition. 

 

See 'Phobophobia'.

[Gunther]

9 minutes ago, C T said:

 

is actually a recognised debilitating condition. 

 

See 'Phobophobia'.

In my internal dictionary that means:

To be afraid for absolutely no apparent reason. Debilitating for sure. The causes being deeply buried in the suppressed unconscious mind

[C T]

Just now, Gunther said:

In my internal dictionary that means:

To be afraid for absolutely no apparent reason. Debilitating for sure. The causes being deeply buried in the suppressed unconscious mind

 

I might actually want to disagree with you slightly on that point about causes being deeply buried/suppressed in the unconscious mind. There are lots of things that people know (are conscious of) that are not contributing to good, healthy overall well-being of body and mind, any yet continue to justify, by using the above tag line, in repeating the same patterns over and over. Its a common practice to defer one's limitations to things hidden in the deeper strata of the sub-mind. The Buddha never acknowledged this in his discourses. 

 

Buddhism, for example, is not a psychoanalytically-bent philosophy. The Buddha laid it down very clearly and simply that the root cause of suffering is attachment, and attachment's root cause is ignorance. Ignorance means not knowing, and also, knowing, but not doing anything remedially. He didn't mention anything about hidden neuroses that need to be rooted out by using methods that resemble analytical tools employed by modern day psychology. He merely said that if you want to address a short-coming, then you need to bring that into the light and see it clearly and fearlessly, and keep being aware that it is a self-imposed hindrance and an obstacle to the practice of the eightfold path, or the paramitas, or to the maintenance of equipoise. 

 

 

[Stosh]

30 minutes ago, C T said:

 

I might actually want to disagree with you slightly on that point about causes being deeply buried/suppressed in the unconscious mind. There are lots of things that people know (are conscious of) that are not contributing to good, healthy overall well-being of body and mind, any yet continue to justify, by using the above tag line, in repeating the same patterns over and over. Its a common practice to defer one's limitations to things hidden in the deeper strata of the sub-mind. The Buddha never acknowledged this in his discourses. 

 

Buddhism, for example, is not a psychoanalytically-bent philosophy. The Buddha laid it down very clearly and simply that the root cause of suffering is attachment, and attachment's root cause is ignorance. Ignorance means not knowing, and also, knowing, but not doing anything remedially. He didn't mention anything about hidden neuroses that need to be rooted out by using methods that resemble analytical tools employed by modern day psychology. He merely said that if you want to address a short-coming, then you need to bring that into the light and see it clearly and fearlessly, and keep being aware that it is a self-imposed hindrance and an obstacle to the practice of the eightfold path, or the paramitas, or to the maintenance of equipoise. 

 

 

Freud had some issues, and in his analysis of his own mind , he saw some of that stuff. So one might take it that he knew what he was talking about. Siddhartha , may not have had phobophobia and so , he might not be the guy to look into it.

Its difficult to fathom the mind of folks who suffer from various conditions , and it may be misplaced to assume that what was said about 'normal minds' fits all circumstances , folks in those days , often seem to refer to demons and such and had various rituals like burning sticks ,ringing bells and so forth, as remedy. 

In the new world , the remedy for idiocy was to rub beaver testicles on your head , and so one may presume that there are , understandably,  limits to rational understanding. 

(Wouldnt someone who wasn't an idiot , be able to tell if it worked or not )

Edited November 10, 2017 by Stosh

[Gunther]

40 minutes ago, C T said:

 

I might actually want to disagree with you slightly on that point about causes being deeply buried/suppressed in the unconscious mind. There are lots of things that people know (are conscious of) that are not contributing to good, healthy overall well-being of body and mind, any yet continue to justify, by using the above tag line, in repeating the same patterns over and over. Its a common practice to defer one's limitations to things hidden in the deeper strata of the sub-mind. The Buddha never acknowledged this in his discourses. 

 

Buddhism, for example, is not a psychoanalytically-bent philosophy. The Buddha laid it down very clearly and simply that the root cause of suffering is attachment, and attachment's root cause is ignorance. Ignorance means not knowing, and also, knowing, but not doing anything remedially. He didn't mention anything about hidden neuroses that need to be rooted out by using methods that resemble analytical tools employed by modern day psychology. He merely said that if you want to address a short-coming, then you need to bring that into the light and see it clearly and fearlessly, and keep being aware that it is a self-imposed hindrance and an obstacle to the practice of the eightfold path, or the paramitas, or to the maintenance of equipoise. 

 

 

I would agree with you and the Buddha in that. Things aren't mysteriously buried in darkness but rather suppressed(which takes great effort) and or projected unto others. The analytical methods are mostly just listening and encouraging to let suppressed aspects of the personality rise up into the field of awareness. As they are seen they are known. Sure mostly they are immediately suppressed/projected again and people carry on as before, like you said, knowing but not acting remedially.

Same way, people might gather around a Zen master like Bankei, he tells them right now your ordinary mind is the Buddha mind. They feel it there and then, but soon after they go home and beat their wife, so to speak.

But I do like the concept of a collective unconscious (C.G. Jung)it's content would be intellectually unknowable and can only be grasped intuitively (like past lives??)

It does explain a lot, I don't see a major contradiction with Buddhism or Vedanta

Edited November 10, 2017 by Gunther

[C T]

12 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Freud had some issues, and in his analysis of his own mind , he saw some of that stuff. So one might take it that he knew what he was talking about. Siddhartha , may not have had phobophobia and so , he might not be the guy to look into it.

Its difficult to fathom the mind of folks who suffer from various conditions , and it may be misplaced to assume that what was said about 'normal minds' fits all circumstances , folks in those days , often seem to refer to demons and such and had various rituals like burning sticks ,ringing bells and so forth, as remedy. 

In the new world , the remedy for idiocy was to rub beaver testicles on your head , and so one may presume that there are , understandably,  limits to rational understanding. 

(Wouldnt someone who wasn't an idiot , be able to tell if it worked or not )

 

Are you touting for the efficacy (beaver testicles aside) of contemporary approaches to mental health, then? Lets not speculate what Gautama had or had not, for that brings up unnecessary complications. 

 

As for rituals, they are still very much part of some cultures who depend on them for the protection/promotion of sanity, as well as sanctity, so one should not play down its importance with any degree of impunity. Most modern day folks have their own habitual and perhaps even superstitious rituals too. In some sense, the only difference is, in this day and age, they call it 'quirks'. As for demons, one need only to scan this forum to see that beliefs and imaginations (some could be real too) surrounding them is still very much alive and well, thriving all the same despite Messrs. Freud, Jung & co.'s best efforts.