Is enlightenment really desirable?

[allinone]

2 hours ago, rene said:

Spoiler

 

(my bold)

 

"I alienate people till I am satisfied. I prefer that activity is not interpreted as poking and insults."

 

allinone, good morning!

 

That ^^ is the most honest and unusual thing I've ever heard! I understand you, now, and am very glad you were able to describe your nature in such a concise way, not many people can. Would it be possible for you to make that sentence your Signature line, to appear at the bottom of each of your posts? It would go a long way for others to understand why you do what you do, that your poking is about you, rather than them personally. Hmm... maybe that wouldn't work ,though, since you need them to be insulted so they are alienated to your satisfaction.

 

Sorry to hear you think you cant be friendly with me, because I, for one, like you very much.

 

Most folks here want to NOT alienate others...so you can be like the cosmic balance for TDB! Please feel free to be as alienating as you'd like (to a point), as long as you stay within the rules of the forum, so that you can stay in the forum. If we get too many member complaints about you though, you might have to leave. But we can just play it by ear, for now, okay?

 

Hope your day is as irritating as you'd like it to be!

 

Warmest regards

 

 

 

i am gradually shipping desire to suffering. Suffering is required to attract bully into contact with me. Bully will trample me till i get satisfied.

 

[Lost in Translation]

2 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

i am gradually shipping desire to suffering. Suffering is required to attract bully into contact with me. Bully will trample me till i get satisfied.

 

 

Rent the movie "Fight Club" with Brad Pitt and Ed Norton. I think you will really like it.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Lost in Translation
Corrected quote marks

[rene]

6 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

I saw flies stuck and i have the opportunity to save them. I for first reaction rejected it because it required effort. I saw that impulse of rejection, so after seeing that i have no choice but to save them. So i do effort to save them and it doesn't matter if i actually manage to save them but i need to complete the action otherwise i would end up being in debt and would carry that debt around me and the judge death will punish me.

 

Our ways are very different, indeed! There is no debt/death judgement as part of my path.

 

3 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

i am gradually shipping desire to suffering. Suffering is required to attract bully into contact with me. Bully will trample me till i get satisfied.

 

 

This is foreign to me. Perhaps you are scorpion...or perhaps you have stumbled into something so abhorrent to base human nature you've let it consume you.

 

Either way, I wish for you peace on your path; even if your 'peace' is what many would consider turmoil.

 

Take care, peace out.

 

^^^ that means I'm leaving the thread for now, work to do.

 

[allinone]

14 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Rent the movie "Fight Club" with Brad Pitt and Ed Norton. I think you will really like it.

 

I have seen it couple times. Tnx for the offer.

[allinone]

10 minutes ago, rene said:

Our ways are very different, indeed! There is no debt/death judgement as part of my path.

 

but nevertheless you are a moderator.

[Marblehead]

I'm back for a break from my other activities.  I see nothing I need respond or comment to.

 

 

 

 

[allinone]

12 minutes ago, rene said:

This is foreign to me. Perhaps you are scorpion...or perhaps you have stumbled into something so abhorrent to base human nature you've let it consume you.

 

no, i am teaching myself to eat grass and once i have achieved that things get easy. But for now OMG, i have desire for milk.

[Stosh]

24 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

i am gradually shipping desire to suffering. Suffering is required to attract bully into contact with me. Bully will trample me till i get satisfied.

 

Don't count on it.

[allinone]

Just now, Stosh said:

Don't count on it.

 

Do you mean that it is hard to find these situations where i find someone to stomp on me? no it isn't hard if i do the prework all myself.

[Stosh]

Just now, allinone said:

 

Do you mean that it is hard to find these situations where i find someone to stomp on me? no it isn't hard if i do the prework all myself.

If you mean that in the forward direction , you are quite right , but if you mean it in reverse , , you won't always find people to play the part you might expect. Everyone has motivations and prompts which are invisible at any given moment. 

[allinone]

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

If you mean that in the forward direction , you are quite right , but if you mean it in reverse , , you won't always find people to play the part you might expect. Everyone has motivations and prompts which are invisible at any given moment. 

 

i need other person enter into greed mode and say something from that mode towards me. It will trigger me into talking about moral codex and human rights etc.

Or i just look for fresh posts what have made some inappropriate claims and i then feel urge to correct it. Its like social service.

If i see someone beats a lesser lifeform or there is unequality then i will act(at least feel urge to act)

[allinone]

Spoiler

for an example, i have seen some enqourage internet piracy, to download files instead of buying it legal, becase public sentiment is the price is too high, so that in their opnion justify stealing. NOPE that isn't it is still stealing.

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

Spoiler

 

It brings me to Wikileaks, is it appropriate to steal files?..it seem what they do is correct and robin hoodlike but that is raw, too soon.

(i just guess by rumors that wikileaks hacked and got hand onto files, not sure what it is)

 

from wikipedia

 

Quote

To the user, WikiLeaks will look very much like Wikipedia. Anybody can post to it, anybody can edit it. No technical knowledge is required. Leakers can post documents anonymously and untraceably. Users can publicly discuss documents and analyse their credibility and veracity. Users can discuss interpretations and context and collaboratively formulate collective publications. Users can read and write explanatory articles on leaks along with background material and context. The political relevance of documents and their verisimilitude will be revealed by a cast of thousands.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by allinone

[Stosh]

If I am in a zen-ish mode , then I will not be so concerned about the lesser life-form , because I do not consider them to be lesser , we 'make our bed' , and have to be satisfied with what that is like. People often say , 'mind your own business' , and taking them to be saying what they mean , I take it that they prefer to live the consequences of their choices than have someone else intervene. Which is wisely respected. 

I do not consider it right to be lying or stealing things , such stuff as one can search out on the web , really isn't vital , it is not even significant. One can easily get along without most things , so even considering this apart from morality, it appears , either, to be condoning a needy ego, or creating a false reality to replace the reality that is true. 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Stosh

[allinone]

55 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Spoiler

 

If I am in a zen-ish mode , the I will not be so concerned about the lesser life-form , because I do not consider them to be lesser , we 'make our bed' , and have to be satisfied with what that is like. People often say , 'mind your own business' , and taking them to be saying what they mean , I take it that they prefer to live the consequences of their choices than have someone else intervene. Which is wisely respected. 

I do not consider it right to be lying or stealing things , such stuff as one can search out on the web , really isn't vital , it is not even significant. One can easily get along without most things , so even considering this apart from morality, it appears , either, to be condoning a needy ego, or creating a false reality to replace the reality that is true. 

 

 

Spoiler

 

when i consume something i need know how i got it. Its important, if it comes through bad sources i better not take it.

Its also with when someone i know connected to me did something and got into debt, so do i can't use that source anymore.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

Spoiler

 

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/

 

vault 8, CIA files released.

----

Spotting that wikileaks has a bitcoin ad.

 

I hate bitcoin, even couple decades back money was better than it is now. So bitcoin is even worse than money.

ads popping up that couple bitcoin now is worth tens of thousands of dollars. No freedom spotted here.

-- trading is forcefully embedded who ever buy bitcoin, trading was propagated like it is normal thing in a newspaper for scrubs, trading is sure way to lose all money to spread even if it is very low but there is transaction costs, sure money for brokers.

Even tho bitcoin itself is p2p, its no new thing it is microtransactions within a system what still is dependent on a host or handler whatever it is.

 

what ever, i hope aliens come and purge.

Edited November 16, 2017 by allinone

[Limahong]

On 10/21/2017 at 11:44 PM, Will said:

This is a very interesting, provocative question I've been pondering intensely over the last few days. Is it really desirable to become enlightened?

 

Hi Will,

 

How do you reconcile 'desirable' and 'enlightened'? When I am enlightened, do I still have desires to be satiated processually? If I take a wuwei path to enlightenment, isn't this path devoid of desires? Is 'enlightenment' a process or a destination?

 

On 10/21/2017 at 11:44 PM, Will said:

By enlightenment, I don't mean becoming a true sage or anything like that, but merely coming to realize basic Taoist "truths" (about how most dualities and desires are simply meaningless human inventions). 

 

"Truths"? More like Taoist philosophical concepts? 

 

On 10/21/2017 at 11:44 PM, Will said:

Now, many people are very content with their lives when they are not enlightened. Perhaps they work for a charity or have ambitions to become a social activist. They believe that what they are doing is the right thing, and matters a lot.

 

Contentment and enlightenment can be mutually exclusive?

 

On 10/21/2017 at 11:44 PM, Will said:

Contrast that with me, who's currently "enlightened" in the sense previously described, and is feeling like nothing has meaning. This does not make me feel very content. Of course, Zhuangzi felt very content, but it took a lot of practice and dedication for him to reach that point. Whereas for those who aren't enlightened, I get the sense that many of them are pretty content without having to put in that kind of dedication.

 

Again - contentment and enlightenent can be mutually exclusive?

When I am "enlightened", am I not supposed to find meaning in The Void? 

 

On 10/21/2017 at 11:44 PM, Will said:

In other words, isn't enlightenment the harder road to contentedness? Might I be better off trying to "forget" Taoism

and postmodern philosophy and make myself like a "normal" person? Because what is really the benefit of all this uncertainty and nihilism? 

 

"Enlightenment" converges to "contendedness"?

 

"Postmodern philosophy is a philosophical direction which is skeptical of certain foundational assumptions of Western philosophy, of the 18th-century Enlightenment, and of philosophy in general" (Wikipedia).

 

"Forget" Taoism? But Taoism is from the East.

 

"Normal" + "uncertainty and nihilism" - what are their Taoist dualistic components?

 

On 10/21/2017 at 11:44 PM, Will said:

I suppose another question that ties in with this is, "Is happiness the only thing I should want?" I know I've discussed this here before, with no clear answer coming out of it.

 

Is there really ever a clear answer to the question?

 

On 10/21/2017 at 11:44 PM, Will said:

But, basically, if happiness is the only thing one can really strive for, what benefit have I gained by adding uncertainty and meaninglessness to my life?

 

Is there ever a possible answer to your question? 

 

On 10/21/2017 at 11:44 PM, Will said:

By contrast, if there is some "higher purpose" than my personal happiness, then perhaps the uncertainly associated with Taoism is okay.

 

In Buddhism nothing is permanent; deemed thus, perhaps there is some "higher purpose". In Taoism, isn't "uncertainty" dualistically fused with certainty?

 

On 10/21/2017 at 11:44 PM, Will said:

I'm not actually considering leaving Taoism; it's just that questions like this really bother me.

 

You think with "questions like this" - Is it really desirable to become enlightened? - answer(s) can be forthcoming without the surfacing of more questions?

 

I am not being critical, but I wonder with more questions...

 

- LimA

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Limahong
Correct typo error.

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, allinone said:

  Hide contents

 

when i consume something i need know how i got it. Its important, if it comes through bad sources i better not take it.

Its also with when someone i know connected to me did something and got into debt, so do i can't use that source anymore.

 

 

I might use that same strategy, if I did not feel competent to judge the content , rather than the envelope it came in.

But Frankly, ones judgement of envelopes may not any better than of the content. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by Stosh

[Starjumper]

5 hours ago, Limahong said:

Again - contentment and enlightenent can be mutually exclusive?

 

Since the enlightenment experience is emotional bliss and rapture then it would include contentment.  After the enlightenment experience, when one has been 'enlightened' then it is possible to be quite discontent.  This later normally resolves into a state of general peacefulness, which is a type of contentment, but there are ups and downs, goods and bads, ins and outs; you know, yin and yang =)

 

5 hours ago, Limahong said:

When I am "enlightened", am I not supposed to find meaning in The Void? 

 

Meaning is mental/verbal fabrication, which doesn't belong.  What happens is you have faith in the void, it does not scare you the way it does most people. 

[Limahong]

11 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

There are ups and downs, goods and bads, ins and outs; you know, yin and yang =).

 

Good morning Steve,

 

I have read your inputs per this thread and they have gotten me to hop on the bang-wagon. I will put all your thoughts together on this thread and respond accordingly.

 

A good day to you. It is now 9:30 am at my end.

 

- Anand

 

 

 

[ljazztrumpet]

13 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I'm back for a break from my other activities.  I see nothing I need respond or comment to.

 

 

 

 

Dude, you say that now, but that's only because I haven't used my dueling glove on you yet in this thread. 

[allinone]

19 hours ago, rene said:

This is foreign to me. Perhaps you are scorpion...or perhaps you have stumbled into something so abhorrent to base human nature you've let it consume you.

 

No i am not. Even the most gross ones possible to happen.

 

I need to do a shame post. It can be with a deed or other type of acts. But then i need feel shame or disgust towards what i did and the urge to correct it or other words overwrite it with apology(it can be even seemingly dirtier deed but the connotation is still a try to erase). What i now know that i am not allowed to apology, instead i keep notice that urge coming up to my mind, then at some point i do automatically something contemptible but i then notice this erased the clinging to shame post. AND then i have able to have compassion to myself and have a softening cotton feeling from seeing how the bad things migrates from activity to activity.

 

(yes i can't write, but its:  shame post--> feel urge to apology--> not apology--> do a automatic dirtier deed and notice it---> see how the bad substance migrates and everyone has it---> feel relief, can feel cotton softness..instead of nightmare arisings of doing bad)

Edited November 17, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

19 hours ago, rene said:

My perspective holds that every moment, every action and non-action, both creates and destroys, both benefits and harms - at the same time. So... by choosing neither of the two options (to save the scorpion or not)... the outcome from my 'not choosing' might turn out to bring me joy or sorrow, but both joy and sorrow are temporal and temporary.

 

Its what i think is that you cling to body. As that will cause you don't feel feelings as sensations. You might feel but you don't know to know theirs relevance and brain totally skip them.

 

Suffering is that when you eventually reach that point then you will have a sensation what is same to crying, there biologically happen something, and eventually you don't have to have a real life event what makes you cry, nor seeing something in RL or TV what makes you cry. But you will get freedom from events what produce tears because you not cling to that function and knowledge arises instead.

Something like that. Crying don't disappear but you know instantly the state when seeing or through other means.

Also events can happen but you don't cling to it and fell to instincts for to body to make moves for you, instead you can be aware and do moves yourself and notice you can't really follow common sense all the time.

Edited November 17, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

20 hours ago, rene said:

The scorpion would drown; I would go about my day and whatever comes, comes.

 

don't you afraid you come scorpion at some point yourself and then see a person do the same to you too lets you fall, and don't even try to save you or worse aides your fall and calls police and also testifies against you in court so that you surely will be locked up somewhere.

Edited November 17, 2017 by allinone

[Limahong]

On 10/24/2017 at 7:53 PM, Starjumper said:

Your concept of enlightenment is way off.

 

(1)

 

Hi Steve,

 

As indicated earlier I will only focus on your responses to Will's thread. There are so many other responses and it is not possible to engage my mind on all. These many and varied responses may be a consequence of Will's loose conceptualisation of 'enlightenment'.

 

On 10/24/2017 at 7:53 PM, Starjumper said:

If your concept of enlightenment is way off then you aren't really there yet are you?  Chuang Tzu was at peace, you could say contented, but inner peace is more accurate because contentment can be shallow.  

 

Yes it takes a lot of practice, but you do the practice for it's own sake, not for a goal of enlightenment.  Contentedness can be a shallow manifestation of ego.

 

If Will's concept of 'enlightenment' is way off, then will his question not point to 'peace' but fragmented pieces of argument as is subsequently evident.

 

On 10/24/2017 at 7:53 PM, Starjumper said:

You have to go through hell to get to heaven, you have to become a bit crazy to become sane.  Is that worth it to you?  Only you can tell.

 

Hell/heaven, crazy/sane... are Taoist conceptual dualities. If a person cannot embrace such dualities, can he/she be a budding Taoist? Will it be better for him/her to nip his/her brand of Taoism in the bud? Sowing wild oats...

 

On 10/24/2017 at 7:53 PM, Starjumper said:

Taoism won't lead you to enlightenment, only a lot of meditation will, and high power energy work increases the chance, but most of all it requires a certain attitude towards life.  The benefit is a sense of inner peace that has it's foundation on the bedrock of your being.

 

Will has to embrace Taoism as a way of life - as a process - for first-hand experiences. But it depends on his outlook in life, his lifestyle, core values... Meditation to cultivate inner peace is a very good start.

 

On 10/24/2017 at 7:53 PM, Starjumper said:

You can want whatever you want, but wanting happiness will not get you happiness.

 

I prefer peace over happiness.

 

On 10/24/2017 at 7:53 PM, Starjumper said:

It gives you a glimpse of truth.

 

Truth has to be experienced first-hand for whatever it is.

 

On 10/24/2017 at 7:53 PM, Starjumper said:

Your purpose can be whatever you want it to be, but focussing on happiness seems kind of selfish and egotistical and having that attitude will prevent a person from experiencing enlightenment.

 

Happiness only one out of many emotions; it is not permanent.

 

On 10/24/2017 at 7:53 PM, Starjumper said:

That's what questions are for, but questioning enlightenment is useless, it's something you need to feel.  The idea that it's all about obtaining some realizations is Buddhist bullshit.

 

Questions are not useless if they can lead to better understanding. 'Realisation' is a word, not a Buddhist...

 

End of (1).

 

- Anand

Edited November 17, 2017 by Limahong
Correct typo error.