Is enlightenment really desirable?

[Starjumper]

11 hours ago, Limahong said:

Good morning Steve,

 

I have read your inputs per this thread and they have gotten me to hop on the bang-wagon. I will put all your thoughts together on this thread and respond accordingly.

 

Well that could be a lot of work, but if you would like to do that then I will like to see what you come up with.

 

11 hours ago, Limahong said:

A good day to you. It is now 9:30 am at my end.

 

- Anand

 

Have a nice day.  It was good evening here, Bedtime for Bonzo.  

[Marblehead]

13 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

don't you afraid you come scorpion at some point yourself and then see a person do the same to you too lets you fall, and don't even try to save you or worse aides your fall and calls police and also testifies against you in court so that you surely will be locked up somewhere.

If you have experienced that I would suggest that you find different friends.

 

[Starjumper]

14 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

On 10/24/2017 at 6:53 AM, Starjumper said:

You have to go through hell to get to heaven, you have to become a bit crazy to become sane.  Is that worth it to you?  Only you can tell.

 

Hell/heaven, crazy/sane... are Taoist conceptual dualities. If a person cannot embrace such dualities, can he/she be a budding Taoist? Will it be better for him/her to nip his/her brand of Taoism in the bud? Sowing wild oats...

 

The brain works via duality.  The brain is always making good/bad decisions, which is something that was needed for survival and still is, it is unavoidable.  I would say that even all animals with brains do it, even the most rudimentary brains, they just don't think about what they are thinking about =) .  Therefore it is proper to discuss these things by looking at the duality aspects.  It is wise that Taoism recognizes this fundamental aspect of being human and works with it.

 

I agree about what you say, that if a person can not embrace the concept of dualities then they can't be Taoists.  Perceptive of you to see it that way.

[Starjumper]

21 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

On 10/24/2017 at 6:53 AM, Starjumper said:

If your concept of enlightenment is way off then you aren't really there yet are you?  Chuang Tzu was at peace, you could say contented, but inner peace is more accurate because contentment can be shallow.  

 

If Will's concept of 'enlightenment' is way off, then will his question not point to 'peace' but fragmented pieces of argument as is subsequently evident.

 

Yes. that was evident 

[Starjumper]

23 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

On 10/24/2017 at 6:53 AM, Starjumper said:

You can want whatever you want, but wanting happiness will not get you happiness.

 

I prefer peace over happiness.

 

That is a much more reasonable goal.

[Starjumper]

24 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

On 10/24/2017 at 6:53 AM, Starjumper said:

It gives you a glimpse of truth.

 

Truth has to be experienced first-hand for whatever it is.

 

Your adding 'whatever it is' was also perceptive.  It seems to me at this point, after only one morning coffee, that truth is  going to be somewhat relative.  Well, except for some truths in the nature of 'gravity sucks', or 'the sun shines'.

[Marblehead]

Beware of your relatives.

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Beware of your relatives.

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Paternal or maternal?

Where does 'mother-in-law' fits in? External? 

 

Let's not forget that this thread pertains to:

Is it really desirable to become enlightened? 

 

A great weekend.

 

- LimA

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Dada-da,

 

Paternal or maternal?

Where does 'mother-in-law' fits in? External? 

 

Let's not forget that this thread pertains to:

Is it really desirable to become enlightened? 

 

A great weekend.

 

- LimA

See?  You misunderstood my usage of the word relatives.  I was speaking about relative truths.

 

[ljazztrumpet]

8 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

See?  You misunderstood my usage of the word relatives.  I was speaking about relative truths.

 

But Lima is right, this thread is about if enlightenment is desirable. THEREFORE, you must choose the title you want.

 

Marble-Da? Marble-Ji?

 

My full title is:

 

'Most Great and Holy Master of Enlightenment, Love, Compassion, and Humility'

 

I realize that is a mouthful so I tell people, once they get to know me better, they can just call me Ljazz.. or Lex. 

[Marblehead]

Yeah, Lima wasn't wrong.  But then I was playing with words so I am to blame.

 

I like your title (label).

 

Yeah, best to keep them simple.

 

 

[ljazztrumpet]

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

  But then I was playing with words so I am to blame.

 

 

[Emera]

Before enlightenment, chop wood.

After enlightenment, chop wood.

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

THEREFORE, you must choose the title you want.

 

Hi MGHM-ELCH.

 

I have addressed Marblehead as Dada-da for a while now. Let's banter more re the 'simplify' thread.

 

We have to note/respect that Will's thread asks - Is it really desirable to become enlightened?

 

A great weekend Lex.

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

44 minutes ago, Emera said:

Before enlightenment, chop wood.

After enlightenment, chop wood.

 

Hi Emera,

 

I don't like to chop wood.

But I need it to cook food.

My cooked food tasted good.

Now I am in a sleeping mood.

I have sent this to Robin Hood:

Please give me chopped wood.

 

We have to note/respect that Will's thread asks - Is it really desirable to become enlightened?

 

- LimA

Edited November 17, 2017 by Limahong

[Emera]

Enlightened beings make other chop wood :P.

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, Emera said:

Enlightened beings make other chop wood :P.

 

Hi again Emera,

 

Great now we are back to 'enlightened'. Thank you.

You keep on chopping with contented enlightenment.

 

- LimA

[Emera]

You can't experience other's enlightenment: Not being enlightened before, how can you know if you want to or not want to be enlightened - it's 20/20. It's like rationalizing the state of death.

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, Emera said:

It's like rationalizing the state of death

 

Hi Emera.

 

Till death do us part. Now I am going to sleep. It is approaching 5 am at my end.

 

Good night.

 

- LimA

[Emera]

Night, they say the dreams are a way to prepare for death

[Limahong]

Keep it to yourself. 

 

ZZzzzzz

[dwai]

On 10/21/2017 at 10:44 AM, Will said:

This is a very interesting, provocative question I've been pondering intensely over the last few days. Is it really desirable to become enlightened?

 

By enlightenment, I don't mean becoming a true sage or anything like that, but merely coming to realize basic Taoist "truths" (about how most dualities and desires are simply meaningless human inventions). 

 

Now, many people are very content with their lives when they are not enlightened. Perhaps they work for a charity or have ambitions to become a social activist. They believe that what they are doing is the right thing, and matters a lot.

 

Contrast that with me, who's currently "enlightened" in the sense previously described, and is feeling like nothing has meaning. This does not make me feel very content. Of course, Zhuangzi felt very content, but it took a lot of practice and dedication for him to reach that point. Whereas for those who aren't enlightened, I get the sense that many of them are pretty content without having to put in that kind of dedication.

 

In other words, isn't enlightenment the harder road to contentedness? Might I be better off trying to "forget" Taoism and postmodern philosophy and make myself like a "normal" person? Because what is really the benefit of all this uncertainty and nihilism? 

 

I suppose another question that ties in with this is, "Is happiness the only thing I should want?" I know I've discussed this here before, with no clear answer coming out of it. But, basically, if happiness is the only thing one can really strive for, what benefit have I gained by adding uncertainty and meaninglessness to my life? By contrast, if there is some "higher purpose" than my personal happiness, then perhaps the uncertainly associated with Taoism is okay.

 

I'm not actually considering leaving Taoism; it's just that questions like this really bother me. 

 

Becoming aware of these does not entail "enlightenment", imho --

• The ephemeral nature of the dualistic world,
• that everything is essentially an object in one's own consciousness,
•  attachment to positions leads one to bounce between pleasure and pain
• the resistance to the situations that changes the nature of our interaction with objects (reduce pleasure and/or cause pain) brings forth leads to suffering. 

The big question after this should become "who is it that feels the discontent?"

If one is truly established in the validity of the aforementioned points and many more such insights, one should not essentially seek "contentment". If one is seeking contentment, one is holding a position vis-a-vis "contentment is preferable over discontent". 

 

With further inquiry into the nature of the "who is it" leads one to realize why one is driven to seek meaning in one's life. Also, who is it that is seeking said meaning? They all lead to one and only one outcome when followed through with sincerity. 

 

Wasn't it Chuang Tzu who said "Happiness is the absence of striving for happiness"? 

 

 

[Marblehead]

43 minutes ago, dwai said:

Wasn't it Chuang Tzu who said "Happiness is the absence of striving for happiness"? 

 

 

Worthy of repeating.

 

[ljazztrumpet]

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi MGHM-ELCH.

 

Hahaha!! Nice man! I'm finally getting the respect I deserve!

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi MGHM-ELCH.

 

I have addressed Marblehead as Dada-da for a while now. Let's banter more re the 'simplify' thread.

 

Ok, ok. I can dig it man. Solid. 

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi MGHM-ELCH.

 

 

A great weekend Lex.

 

 

Thanks man, you too.. I’m just sitting in my car waiting to go in and do a nice small group jazz gig at a fancy steakhouse down here on Wall St, NYC.. So that’s a good start to the weekend anyway!

[ljazztrumpet]

2 hours ago, Emera said:

Enlightened beings make other chop wood :P.

 

People who claim to be enlightened, or whoclaim to be 'gurus', make others chop the wood for them