Is enlightenment really desirable?

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

 

People who claim to be enlightened, or whoclaim to be 'gurus', make others chop the wood for them

Be careful with this one.  What is the person who is chopping the wood getting in return?

 

Carrying water and chopping wood are lessons too.

 

[ljazztrumpet]

1 hour ago, Emera said:

You can't experience other's enlightenment: Not being enlightened before, how can you know if you want to or not want to be enlightened - it's 20/20. It's like rationalizing the state of death.

I think when people are looking to ‘get enlightened’, many times, they are trying to access a certain state of consciousness. I feel that there is much more possibility to fall into egoic traps if someone has a goal of getting ‘enlightened’. To me, it feels much ‘cleaner’ to go for being more loving, kinder, compassionate, benevolent, humble, etc.. Then things that people may consider to fit their definition of enlightenment, such as seeing there is no separation between anything and those types of ‘nondual understandings, just happen as a side effect as they raise the consciousness of love. As they strive to ‘live in the heart’ more. I think cultivating the traits I mention make it much easier do to that famous nondual inquiry 'dwai' is speaking of: 'Who is it that is seeking X, Y, or Z? We become more of the 'dry tinder' that needs only a spark to set it off. 

 

[ljazztrumpet]

5 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Be careful with this one.  What is the person who is chopping the wood getting in return?

 

Carrying water and chopping wood are lessons too.

 

exactly marbleman. That's the joke. Anyone who sets themselves up as a guru is going to be caught in the ego and that's why they will try to take advantage of others and try to get them to do their work for them. Just check out guruphiliac.org!

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

exactly marbleman. That's the joke. Anyone who sets themselves up as a guru is going to be caught in the ego and that's why they will try to take advantage of others and try to get them to do their work for them. Just check out guruphiliac.org!

Agree.  Our ego is not easy to control.  I have never suggested that being without ego is a good thing.  However, I have on many occasions stated that our ego should reflect reality.

 

And yes, any teacher of anything would have to make sure that what they are doing is not ego based.  That would interfere with the lessons.

 

 

[ljazztrumpet]

Just now, Marblehead said:

Agree.  Our ego is not easy to control.  I have never suggested that being without ego is a good thing.  However, I have on many occasions stated that our ego should reflect reality.

 

And yes, any teacher of anything would have to make sure that what they are doing is not ego based.  That would interfere with the lessons.

 

 

It's the teachers that see themselves on an equal level to their students, that realize they can learn from their students, as well as teach them, that are the ones that I really respect. The ones who have great humility are always the most powerful in all my experiences. 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, ljazztrumpet said:

People who claim to be enlightened, or who claim to be 'gurus', make others chop the wood for them

 

Hi Lex,

 

Such 'gurus' likes to enlighten the burdened dimensions of their lives. When greenhorns come along, they become easy chop meat for the 'gurus' to cook with the greenies' chopped wood?

 

Taoist greenhorns of the world unite.

Don't chop, chop & chop till the night.

Give these 'gurus' six hard karate chops.

Be enlightened when you come out tops.

 

- LimA

[ljazztrumpet]

4 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Lex,

 

Such 'gurus' likes to enlighten the burdened dimensions of their lives. When greenhorns come along, they become easy chop meat for the 'gurus' to cook with the greenies' chopped wood?

 

Taoist greenhorns of the world unite.

Don't chop, chop & chop till the night.

Give these 'gurus' six hard karate chops.

Be enlightened when you come out tops.

 

- LimA

Yes indeed Lima, I'm not usually a violent man, but I always keep an eye out for that 'Buddha on the road' 

[Gunther]

10 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Worthy of repeating.

 

For sure.

But repeating is not enough.

It needs to be understood😀

[Gunther]

2 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Yes indeed Lima, I'm not usually a violent man, but I always keep an eye out for that 'Buddha on the road' 

Yes no need to chop down anything. If we try do understand. The Buddha within. Your mind (essence) is the Buddha

[Limahong]

25 minutes ago, Gunther said:

It needs to be understood😀

 

11 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Yes no need to chop down anything. If we try do understand. The Buddha within. Your mind (essence) is the Buddha

 

Hi Gunther,

 

Yes. Understanding is key. But self-understanding before I cultivate a Buddha nature within?

 

- LimA

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

 

 

Hi Gunther,

 

Yes. Understanding is key. But self-understanding before I cultivate a Buddha nature within?

 

- LimA

You are ready made.

Cultivation is not an action/doing.

It is pure receptivity.

For example:

The school teacher says to the child:

Pay attention.

What you supposed to do?

You immediately stop doing anything😀😀

[Limahong]

26 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Cultivation is not an action/doing.

 

Wuwei?

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

 

Wuwei?

Yes, but why call it cultivation?

You just expressing your nature.

So if you feel like sitting facing a wall, or whatever, go for it, enjoy😀

But you not going anywhere 😀

[Marblehead]

Yep.  We are always where we are.

 

[allinone]

On ‎17‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 2:41 PM, Marblehead said:

If you have experienced that I would suggest that you find different friends.

 

 

no, but it seem you don't know how to read. I could write a essay it still would mean only one thing.

 

even if i would be in prison, then its just appearance. If someone spoke against me then its also appearance.

you didn't say anything like it, but you write in a way that in air is a fat assumption that if it woul be true then its like i need help and whatever i speak comes from i have had some harsh punishments by other humans actions, haha

-----------

Just laughing at taking conversation into mundane level in a spiritual forum so i get it why insults are not allowed because the yare viewed like i insult a real person on other side of computer.

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by allinone

[Limahong]

On 10/25/2017 at 2:25 AM, Starjumper said:

 

The whole thing   

 

(2A)

 

Hi Steve,

 

'Realisation' may momentarily be 'wholistic'. But what is 'realised' is not the 'whole'. Nothing is permanent.

 

On 10/25/2017 at 2:25 AM, Starjumper said:

Some people (bibliophiles) seem to think that reading about the realizations makes them a realizer.   No sorry, that's not how it works.

 

Maybe some these people may like to share 'how it works' for them?

 

On 10/25/2017 at 2:25 AM, Starjumper said:

You can read about all the realizations online for free and they are essentially worthless, realizations and 50 cents will get you a half assed cup of coffee in Ecuador.

 

50 cents is more than 2 cents but nothing is free for me unless...

 

On 10/25/2017 at 2:25 AM, Starjumper said:

Realizations come after the enlightenment experience, when thought returns to stillness, and a person who has had the experience will understand and know all the realizations without ever reading a single word about them.

 

Enlightenment => realisation => stillness ~ all without ever reading a single word about them.

How do you account for this flow? Through experiential learning?

 

On 10/25/2017 at 2:25 AM, Starjumper said:

 It springs spontaneously from the new underlying way they look at things, not from reading books.  In addition they don't really give a damn about these realizations and just ignore them or forget them.  In the pursuit of knowledge ideas are gathered, in the pursuit of Tao ideas are forgotten.

 

Sunrise => sunset => sunrise => sunset => ... : more 'nature' than 'nuture'?

 

On 10/25/2017 at 2:25 AM, Starjumper said:

Wisdom is concepts that spring from the mind of a wise person.

 

Wisdom - endowed by nature (X) and/or cultivated through nurture (Y)? Ratio(s) of X:Y?

 

On 10/25/2017 at 2:25 AM, Starjumper said:

Reading or hearing about these wisdoms and repeating them is no longer wisdom, it's parroting, get a bird instead.

 

 

Black or white?

 

On 10/25/2017 at 2:25 AM, Starjumper said:

Spiritual teachers are nothing more than cheap parrots, and we won't label their 'followers' right away.  Oops, sorry -->  buddhists

 

Every sect has its 'good, bad and ugly' elements e.g. ==> Taoists. Oops, sorry.

 

Some enlightened spiritual teachers are silent and we may not know them as such. As they do not talk, they are not cheap parrots - you naughty boy.

 

- Anand

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, allinone said:

even if i would be in prison, then its just appearance. If someone spoke against me then its also appearance.

😀And everything is everything

That's the really deep stuff

[ljazztrumpet]

7 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Yes. Understanding is key. But self-understanding before I cultivate a Buddha nature within?

 

Isn't it just semantics? Form the current way I view things, self-understanding = Buddha nature - Of course I am including Self-understanding along with self-understanding. The latter coming first, since you usually have to be 'someone' before you can be 'no one' ;-)

[Gunther]

13 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Isn't it just semantics? Form the current way I view things, self-understanding = Buddha nature - Of course I am including Self-understanding along with self-understanding. The latter coming first, since you usually have to be 'someone' before you can be 'no one' ;-)

Understanding is immediate.

The Buddha( nature ) within is awareness.

Abiding in your true nature (being aware) is automatic cultivation. (By being aware of old self referencing mind patterns, old habits)

[ljazztrumpet]

2 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Understanding is immediate.

The Buddha( nature ) within is awareness.

Abiding in your true nature (being aware) is automatic cultivation. (By being aware of old self referencing mind patterns, old habits)

I see what your saying - In this type of awareness it feels like you would be practicing a type of focused attention, choosing to focus on awareness of past mind patterns and habits. So you are focusing on abiding in your true nature and that 'causes' an automatic cultivation.

[Gunther]

3 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

I see what your saying - In this type of awareness it feels like you would be practicing a type of focused attention, choosing to focus on awareness of past mind patterns and habits. So you are focusing on abiding in your true nature and that 'causes' an automatic cultivation.

It's not focusing at all. It's not an activity. You relax, rest in your natural state. It's passive receptivity, openess. In that clarity the old mind patterns are known. To know means to clearly see, be aware, nothing needs/can be done. That's càlled cultivation

Edited November 18, 2017 by Gunther

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, allinone said:

 

no, but it seem you don't know how to read. I could write a essay it still would mean only one thing.

 

 

Well, maybe you could use words so that I don't misunderstand what you mean?

 

Anyhow, I'm just taking with you.  If it helps in any way then its all good.

 

 

 

[ljazztrumpet]

Deleted

Edited November 18, 2017 by ljazztrumpet

[ljazztrumpet]

4 minutes ago, Gunther said:

It's not focusing at all. It's not an activity. You relax, rest in your natural state. It's passive receptivity, openess. In that clarity the old mind pattern are known. To know means to clearly see, be aware, nothing needs/can be done. That's càlled cultivation

So it seems that you are pointing to something like being in a shikantaza meditation? 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Gunther said:

It's not focusing at all. It's not an activity. You relax, rest in your natural state. It's passive receptivity, openess. In that clarity the old mind pattern are known. To know means to clearly see, be aware, nothing needs/can be done. That's càlled cultivation

It is so easy and yet so hard to do. Let the monkey mind be...it will settle down on its own. 

 

Sometimes people might need a taste...which can be done by sharing presence with someone who rests in the natural state. It’s like entering a zone where awareness can be but mind cannot move.  

 

Some folks here can help with it if people are having trouble abiding in the now.