Is enlightenment really desirable?

[Limahong]

57 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Isn't it just semantics? Form the current way I view things, self-understanding = Buddha nature - Of course I am including Self-understanding along with self-understanding. The latter coming first, since you usually have to be 'someone' before you can be 'no one' ;-)

 

Hi Lex,

 

I am at peace with my present understanding of the concepts on The Void and Emptiness. It took me quite a while to be where I am now. I am aware that others may view these concepts differently. It is fine with me. I respect other views as each life is a road less travelled.

 

Is there a difference for you when it comes to - Self-understanding and self-understanding? If so, please share.

 

I share the same view - sequentially 'someone' comes before 'no one'. Why? I need to know what I have before I can throw anything away.

 

Sometimes I can find peace from the silence of being a nobody.

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

5 hours ago, Gunther said:

Yes, but why call it cultivation?

 

Hi Gunther,

 

Cultivation? No particular inclination except that I need to use it as a word for communication.

 

I came across the term 'wuwei' when I was younger. Then I could not figure it out. But as I got older 'wuwei' becomes an important part of my life.

 

There was not a 'Aha!' moment for me when it comes to my embrace of wuwei. Looking back, my association with an apple tree helped ~ gradually and wuwei-lessly.

 

- LimA

[ljazztrumpet]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Lex,

 

I am at peace with my present understanding of the concepts on The Void and Emptiness. It took me quite a while to be where I am now. I am aware that others may view these concepts differently. It is fine with me. I respect other views as each life is a road less travelled.

 

Is there a difference for you when it comes to - Self-understanding and self-understanding? If so, please share.

 

I share the same view - sequentially 'someone' comes before 'no one'. Why? I need to know what I have before I can throw anything away.

 

Sometimes I can find peace from the silence of being a nobody.

 

- LimA

Hey Lima, when I refer to self-understanding I am talking about the ‘little self’ I take myself to be. The body/mind self-concept. With Self-understanding, with the big ’S’, I am referring to the idea that what I am, is all there is. No separation between any ‘thing’. I used to study teachings, go to satsangs, do nondual inquiry and meditations, to try and get an experiential feel of this. But, more recently, I found that giving up on that whole pursuit and pursuing developing qualities like love, compassion, kindness, humility, etc. is actually causing me to start really feeling those nondual ideas I used to only know about intellectually. 

[Limahong]

12 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

Hey Lima

 

Hey Lex,

 

You strike me as a free spirit that is always seeking... Keep it that way.

 

19 minutes ago, ljazztrumpet said:

I found that giving up on that whole pursuit and pursuing developing qualities like love, compassion, kindness, humility, etc

 

Don't give up on the 'whole'; just add on the good qualities like love, compassion, kindness, humility, etc.

 

Want to bet - you are becoming 'wholesome'? I know I will win.

 

- LimA

[Gunther]

3 hours ago, ljazztrumpet said:

So it seems that you are pointing to something like being in a shikantaza meditation? 

you could say that if you dont define zazen in the orthodox way.(siitting down facing a wall)

what is sitting meditation?(zazen)

to rest with a relaxed mind is called sitting

abide in your natural state without confusion is called meditation

(check out Hui Neng, platform sutra)

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Gunther

[ljazztrumpet]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

 

Hey Lex,

 

You strike me as a free spirit that is always seeking... Keep it that way.

 

 

Don't give up on the 'whole'; just add on the good qualities like love, compassion, kindness, humility, etc.

 

Want to bet - you are becoming 'wholesome'? I know I will win.

 

- LimA

Hey LimA, thanks man..That sounds like a great plan!

[ljazztrumpet]

13 minutes ago, Gunther said:

you could say that if you dont define zazen in the orthodox way.(siitting down facing a wall)

what is sitting meditation?(zazen)

to rest with a relaxed mind is called sitting

abide in your natural state without confusion is called meditation

(check out Hui Neng, platform sutra)

 

Right Gunther, that's how I was thinking of sitting meditation. I've spent some time studying zazen and meditating in those groups. But I tend to think of sitting meditation as just sitting in any comfortable position and allowing whatever comes up to come up without dwelling on it, judging it, etc.. Just observing what comes up like clouds in the sky. 

 

I do another type of meditation similar to Buddhist samatha sometimes where I follow the breath counting from 1 - 10 and returning to the count every time a thought comes in. But that, for me, is more about developing a focused attention. 

 

What gives me the most powerful results at this point in my life is to allow things to come up and to 'send love' to anyone/anything that comes up.. Doing this in formal meditation helps me to carry it over to my daily life and I can remember to do it in more and more situations as I go about my day/night.

[Maddie]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 10:44 AM, Will said:

 

 

Now, many people are very content with their lives when they are not enlightened. Perhaps they work for a charity or have ambitions to become a social activist. They believe that what they are doing is the right thing, and matters a lot.

 

Contrast that with me, who's currently "enlightened" in the sense previously described, and is feeling like nothing has meaning. This does not make me feel very content. Of course, Zhuangzi felt very content, but it took a lot of practice and dedication for him to reach that point. Whereas for those who aren't enlightened, I get the sense that many of them are pretty content without having to put in that kind of dedication.

 

In other words, isn't enlightenment the harder road to contentedness? Might I be better off trying to "forget" Taoism and postmodern philosophy and make myself like a "normal" person? Because what is really the benefit of all this uncertainty and nihilism? 

 

I suppose another question that ties in with this is, "Is happiness the only thing I should want?" I know I've discussed this here before, with no clear answer coming out of it. But, basically, if happiness is the only thing one can really strive for, what benefit have I gained by adding uncertainty and meaninglessness to my life? By contrast, if there is some "higher purpose" than my personal happiness, then perhaps the uncertainly associated with Taoism is okay.

 

I wanted to respond to the OP by looking at a few points.

 

The first point I would like to address is the title of the post asking is Enlightenment really desirable. When the Buddha is explaining to his friends his enlightenment experience he proclaims the Four Noble Truths. The first that in life there is suffering. Secondly that suffering's cause is ultimately not externally objective but internally subjective arising from the mind. Thirdly that this suffering can be ended. And lastly the eightfold path as the way to go about ending suffering. So at least from a Buddhist point of view the question as to whether or not enlightenment is desirable can be answered by asking if it is desirable to continue suffering or to end suffering. 

 

Now to the point of contentedness. According to the Buddha's second noble truth the root of suffering is desire or a lack of contentedness. The enlightened individual has let go of all desire and is therefore in a state of perfect contentedness and also perfectly happy. The poster makes a point that many people are very content with their lives and that they are not enlightened. This can be said from a conventional sense of the term in that people might have a nice job, house, family, relationship and can't really complain too much, but these things still can and do not bring contentedness in the true sense. When we think about what we want or have wanted there is always a sense of frustration until we get what we want, and obviously frustration is not contentedness and therefore not happiness. Once we have what we want (assuming we were able to get it in the first place) there is the fear of losing it, because sense nothing is permanent we realize that eventually we will loose it. Additionally once we do get what we want we realize that what ever it may be is never as satisfying as we had hoped it would be while we were seeking it. So I would say that most people are actually not content in the true sense of the meaning, and therefore not ultimately happy.

 

In regards to the question asking if working towards enlightenment is harder than not one could answer both yes and no. Yes because as the Buddha himself said in the Eightfold Path "Right Effort" is a necessary condition to obtain Nirvana, so yes it does take effort so in this sense it is harder than no putting forth the effort. But on the other hand since Samsara is the endless cyclical existence in suffering doing nothing to escape Samsara could be said to be more difficult considering the endless suffering to be experienced.  

 

Now addressing the last question as to whether happiness is the only thing the poster should want. If we look at the alternative to happiness which is suffering it seems reasonable that one would choose happiness. The poster is concerned that by seeking happiness he will add uncertainty and meaninglessness to his life, but since uncertainty and meaninglessness are suffering by seeking happiness one would be letting go of these feelings as well. 

 

But to recap enlightenment is happiness, happiness is contentment, and it is fundamentally impossible for one to suffer while being happy. 

[shortstuff]

Quote

Now, many people are very content with their lives when they are not enlightened. Perhaps they work for a charity or have ambitions to become a social activist. They believe that what they are doing is the right thing, and matters a lot.

Are they though? Everyone who is unrealized has internal, unwanted thoughts. Enlightened people have none.

How can you enjoy life when you are constantly bombarded with negative thoughts, or positive ones designed to cause negative reactions?

Inner peace is a joy.

I'm not quite there yet myself but since I realized my existence for what it is I noticed my constant stream of thoughts changed and now the only thought scatter I get is my mind playing music to me internally. I have no choice over what music, it just plays random music. Sometimes music I don't even think I have heard before.

Sometimes I choose not to process it, and it stops, and I think nothing, and it is brilliant.

[Bud Jetsun]

On 18/11/2017 at 11:22 AM, ljazztrumpet said:

Hey Lima, when I refer to self-understanding I am talking about the ‘little self’ I take myself to be. The body/mind self-concept. With Self-understanding, with the big ’S’, I am referring to the idea that what I am, is all there is. No separation between any ‘thing’. I used to study teachings, go to satsangs, do nondual inquiry and meditations, to try and get an experiential feel of this. But, more recently, I found that giving up on that whole pursuit and pursuing developing qualities like love, compassion, kindness, humility, etc. is actually causing me to start really feeling those nondual ideas I used to only know about intellectually. 

 

One may discover that the summation of their understanding is merely self-delusion. 

 

When 'understanding' little 's' self it's pretending some imaginary friend has something to figure out beyond that it's a figment of self-constructed fantasy. 

 

As we lack the ability to even know dreaming from waking, the real attributes of big S Self can only be appreciated in Now experientially.  The aspects one constructs of understanding the big S Self are just added construct delusions and labels further separating a being from awareness Self by replacing into some labeled bin categories which are not Self. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

[ljazztrumpet]

I think I can dig what your pointing to Buddy Budlove.. A state where there is only perception of the Self, since that's all there is. There is no 'little self' to think it's perceiving a 'true' Self, because the idea of there ever being a 'little self' is seen as imaginary in the first place.

 

That being said, with only two exceptions I know about regarding a couple of spiritual healers who were able to bilocate, all of us, no matter what level of truth about nonduality we're able to discern, still have our point of reference from the particular body/mind we are inhabiting until our physical death. We may truly know that what we are, is all there is but, yet, the center of this knowing/perception is still focused in the specific body/mind. 

[ljazztrumpet]

On 12/23/2017 at 2:07 AM, shortstuff said:

Are they though? Everyone who is unrealized has internal, unwanted thoughts. Enlightened people have none.

How can you enjoy life when you are constantly bombarded with negative thoughts, or positive ones designed to cause negative reactions?

Inner peace is a joy.

I'm not quite there yet myself but since I realized my existence for what it is I noticed my constant stream of thoughts changed and now the only thought scatter I get is my mind playing music to me internally. I have no choice over what music, it just plays random music. Sometimes music I don't even think I have heard before.

Sometimes I choose not to process it, and it stops, and I think nothing, and it is brilliant.

I believe to really break free to a large extent, and you may want to call this being 'enlightened' or 'realized', is when nothing that happens to you causes you to suffer. Whether you are being tortured to death, seeing a horrible movie, or eating broccoli. You judge nothing as 'good' or 'bad' from the deepest level of your being. And, yet, there is a drive to help and empower all other people to see this as well. 'You', referring to your specific body/mind, won't ever be totally free until every being is free - because they are also you. So things like the Bodhisattva vow are just a natural occurrence of an evolving spiritual consciousness. You have to 'take' the Bodhisattva vow (or it's equivalent) at some point in order to continue to evolve spiritually.

[Small Fur]

On October 21, 2017 at 8:44 AM, Will said:

This is a very interesting, provocative question I've been pondering intensely over the last few days. Is it really desirable to become enlightened?

 

By enlightenment, I don't mean becoming a true sage or anything like that, but merely coming to realize basic Taoist "truths" (about how most dualities and desires are simply meaningless human inventions). 

 

Now, many people are very content with their lives when they are not enlightened. Perhaps they work for a charity or have ambitions to become a social activist. They believe that what they are doing is the right thing, and matters a lot.

 

Contrast that with me, who's currently "enlightened" in the sense previously described, and is feeling like nothing has meaning. This does not make me feel very content. Of course, Zhuangzi felt very content, but it took a lot of practice and dedication for him to reach that point. Whereas for those who aren't enlightened, I get the sense that many of them are pretty content without having to put in that kind of dedication.

 

In other words, isn't enlightenment the harder road to contentedness? Might I be better off trying to "forget" Taoism and postmodern philosophy and make myself like a "normal" person? Because what is really the benefit of all this uncertainty and nihilism? 

 

I suppose another question that ties in with this is, "Is happiness the only thing I should want?" I know I've discussed this here before, with no clear answer coming out of it. But, basically, if happiness is the only thing one can really strive for, what benefit have I gained by adding uncertainty and meaninglessness to my life? By contrast, if there is some "higher purpose" than my personal happiness, then perhaps the uncertainly associated with Taoism is okay.

 

I'm not actually considering leaving Taoism; it's just that questions like this really bother me. 

 

 

First of all, lets clarify that human desire is contrary to enlightenment; so your question is inherently flawed in its origin of perspective, which as you know, will philosophically only lead you to (the) faulty conclusions (that you have already implied here. Realize that foundationally, your wish to intellectualize all these experiential states is what is obscuring your deeper sense). It is willingness and wisdom in natural sense before the conditioned psyche that leads to enlightened being- not the psychological attachments in desire. And yes, here I am speaking about the ultimate state, not merely seemingly ‘improved (mundane) realizations’.

 

Second, what you describe in yourself is not a clear or realized state, even in the mundane. This malcontent in meaningless that you describe in yourself is a facet of apathy. Apathy by its nature is without the light of insight. Those who have found a measure of contentment through ‘meaning’ have fulfilled themselves to a certain level consistent with their current state of consciousness, and in your unique orientation to the world, you have not yet fulfilled your capacity to a level of contentment in understanding. Technically, you are both at the same level of realization, just on opposite ends of the spectrum in solution and satisfaction to addressing the same fundamental question: you feel enlightened because you realize something the other persons have not, but they too have realized something within an ‘enlightened’ condition that you have not. Those ‘common, ignorant folk living in meaning’ may one day come to unity in wisdom, just like those ‘uncommon, critical-minded intellectuals living in void’ may one day also become whole.

 

There is nothing harmful, ill or depressing in meaningless itself. That you find it painful is a product of your own psychology, not an inherent quality of the ‘empty’ state in conditions. And there is no actual truthful “benefit” in the belief of meaning or meaningless, only the psychological overlay that acts as an adaptive mechanism to coping from which you derive some kind of value… maybe you feel better about yourself if you think you are on a moral high ground contributing to charities, or maybe you feel safe at a certain level to believe that things which seem random, chaotic and hurtful can’t really have an affect on you ultimately if they are inherently ‘meaningless’; thus the rationale- conscious or unconscious, is up to you, but either way has no direct bearing on the existential and essential truth. So, the only challenge to enlightenment is in the way you pave your own path and if you pave it with malcontent then you will be sad and disgruntled along the way, and if you pave it with feelings of esteem, then you will have felt happiness along the way. 

 

And finally, why do you assume “happiness” is the most valuable existential state, and if you have to “strive” for what may be fundamental and inherent, how happy, clear-minded, truthful, natural or pure are you really being? Do not delude yourself with mental elitisms. You think you want happiness but in the state that is striving you directly create and live in unhappiness to get to that ephemeral goal. Furthermore, perhaps it is not happiness you want so much as the fear of pain that motivates you to its counterpart that you call happiness, when what is necessary is to transcend both these ephemeral and mundane conditions and come to the ever present experience of Truth, a Truth that superceds this pain in desire that you have yet to realize.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Small Fur

[Bud Jetsun]

Refreshing wisdom Small Fur! 

 

Thank you kindly!!

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Spotless]

On 12/25/2017 at 11:14 AM, ljazztrumpet said:

I think I can dig what your pointing to Buddy Budlove.. A state where there is only perception of the Self, since that's all there is. There is no 'little self' to think it's perceiving a 'true' Self, because the idea of there ever being a 'little self' is seen as imaginary in the first place.

 

That being said, with only two exceptions I know about regarding a couple of spiritual healers who were able to bilocate, all of us, no matter what level of truth about nonduality we're able to discern, still have our point of reference from the particular body/mind we are inhabiting until our physical death. We may truly know that what we are, is all there is but, yet, the center of this knowing/perception is still focused in the specific body/mind. 

This is again conceptual:

"yet, the center of this knowing/perception is still focused in the specific body/mind."

 

One can move beyond "truely know what we are"

 

(This is far beyond something so simple as bilocate)

[9th]

First of all, this is pretty cute.

 

Second, here are some more words.

 

And finally, ...

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Enlightenment feels so good that it is always desirable.

[wstein]

3 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Enlightenment feels so good that it is always desirable.

The process of becoming (realizing you are) enlightened however is whole lots of no fun.

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Depends on what you can handle and how open minded you are plus your level of forgiveness.. you decide how hard things are.. how hard you need things to be..

 

Even this^ is a revelation to me as well..

 

You have to remember that insight is part of meditation.. this means that simply thinking can lead to enlightenment..

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Measuring things can be meditation too.. ultimately any object can be an object of meditation..

[Starjumper]

7 hours ago, wstein said:

The process of becoming (realizing you are) enlightened however is whole lots of no fun.

 

Incorrect

[Starjumper]

6 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

You have to remember that insight is part of meditation.. this means that simply thinking can lead to enlightenment..

 

Incorrect

[Starjumper]

6 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Measuring things can be meditation too.. ultimately any object can be an object of meditation..

 

Incorrect

[Boundlesscostfairy]

^Would you care to correct us?

[Starjumper]

I'll comment on your posts since you asked.