Is enlightenment really desirable?

[Wu Ming Jen]

To quite the heart is enlightenment.

 

Moreover one will be warding off calamities and eliminating disasters.

 

 

When one has demonstrated this first phase, one must seek the refuge of the Heart. When one’s body and heart aren’t aligned, danger develops and one is unable to find deliverance. Like the wind or sea, the deep waters of an ocean flood, the fury of a blowing gale, and the billowing tidal waves, it is a great struggle to escape this turmoil. If one wishes to find refuge in the heart, they must know the heart, and it is the most benevolent and long enduring thing.

贪生好色，犯法遭殃；饿鬼畜生，癃残疾病，水火刀兵，瘟蝗劫苦，山崩地震，星殒日食，海啸河奔，妖邪鬼

[MooNiNite]

The first question would be, "do you know what enlightenment is?"

Enlightenment can't be described because it is an experiential state of being. 

 

After knowing what it is then you can evaluate if it is really desirable. (for others..). 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

My enlightenment could be seen and known, and therefore I could describe it..

[rainbowvein]

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Boundlesscostfairy said:

<snip>

simply thinking can lead to enlightenment..

 

You have a point there.  

 

Thoughts and intention do play a part in your spiritual life.

 

The greatest challenge is your own hard-wired nature.

 

Q: Can you supersede your own habits and preferences?

 

 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Well you can moderate them, and successfully reprogram your mind via meta linguistic programming...

 

Sudden extreme changes in behaviour are rare.. without a drug of some sort..

 

It depends what you put yourself through.. like changes in behaviour can come from very fearful experiences..

 

Also to note is when people are in love..

 

So in conclusion.. it may be possible.. you should wonder why you are attached to your current beliefs, behaviours, and preferences..

[Boundlesscostfairy]

I think that's what Nietzsche called The Overman..

[Starjumper]

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Boundlesscostfairy said:

Measuring things can be meditation too.. ultimately any object can be an object of meditation..

 

OK Boundless feller.  It's not all incorrect, your statement is partly correct, it depends a lot on definitions and details =)

 

As you say measuring things can be meditation, but I think a better word is focus.  You could focus on any object and it would be a kind of meditation if the mind is not thinking about it at the time.  Wordless observation can be a good meditation.

 

Measuring things involves mental work/comparisons and therefore to me it is not meditation.  Of course the dictionary defines meditation as thinking about anything, so 'spiritual' meditation is not to be confused with the definition in it's common word usage.

 

The reason for any kind of focus is simply as an aid to help a beginner to stop thinking and to achieve a more meditative state.  It is better to focus internally than externally as far as cultivation is concerned.  Ultimately you find that the act of focussing and observing anything cause some small amount of tension and so for advanced practitioners there is no object of focus, thinking is switched off simply using intent or will power and there is no focus, just pure undirected awareness.

[Starjumper]

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Boundlesscostfairy said:

You have to remember that insight is part of meditation.. this means that simply thinking can lead to enlightenment..

 

Insight is part of meditation yes, but it is a result of meditation and not an integral part of it.  Meditation can lead to insights but insights will not lead you to enlightenment.  I'm referring to meditation here as non thinking.  Of course the insights come about when one is attempting to meditate by not thinking but thoughts pop up anyway.  So you could say that meditation (thinking) can lead to insights, when combined with observation.  I reiterate, enlightenment has nothing to do with insights, those can come after the experience.  Enlightenment is simply a profound and temporary state of emotional bliss.  This comes only from many years of working on non thinking, not by thinking.

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

For advanced practitioners there is no object of focus, thinking is switched off simply using intent or will power and there is no focus, just pure undirected awareness.

 

Hi Steve,

 

By focusing without a focus.

The unfolding has no locus.

 

- Anand

 

[MooNiNite]

Experiential states of being cannot be understood through ideas and descriptions. This is the difference between knowing the path and walking the path. 

 

It's like thinking you know what taking LSD is like because your friend told you about it.

[Limahong]

3 minutes ago, MooNiNite said:

It's like thinking you know what taking LSD is like because your friend told you about it.

 

During Lao Tzu's or Buddha's time there wasn't any LSD.

[MooNiNite]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

 

During Lao Tzu's or Buddha's time there wasn't any LSD.

What's your point? I was simply making an example. Psilocybin mushrooms have been used in initiation ceremonies in both Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism, and possibly even Taoism.

[MooNiNite]

Although my point was never that LSD or mushrooms were examples of enlightenment, so relating them to Lao Tzu or Buddha is irrelevant. I was using LSD as an example to explain that experiential states of being cannot be conceptualized and must be experienced to be understood.

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, MooNiNite said:

so relating them to Lao Tzu or Buddha is irrelevant. 

 

Exactly my point - no relation.

[Boundlesscostfairy]

There are many different types of enlightenment.. so basically everyones point of view is valid...

[Boundlesscostfairy]

12 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

OK Boundless feller.  It's not all incorrect, your statement is partly correct, it depends a lot on definitions and details =)

 

As you say measuring things can be meditation, but I think a better word is focus.  You could focus on any object and it would be a kind of meditation if the mind is not thinking about it at the time.  Wordless observation can be a good meditation.

 

Measuring things involves mental work/comparisons and therefore to me it is not meditation.  Of course the dictionary defines meditation as thinking about anything, so 'spiritual' meditation is not to be confused with the definition in it's common word usage.

 

The reason for any kind of focus is simply as an aid to help a beginner to stop thinking and to achieve a more meditative state.  It is better to focus internally than externally as far as cultivation is concerned.  Ultimately you find that the act of focussing and observing anything cause some small amount of tension and so for advanced practitioners there is no object of focus, thinking is switched off simply using intent or will power and there is no focus, just pure undirected awareness.

Focus is a way to get to know something.. focus is way of differentiating between things..

 

To focus on anything is to measure it!

 

How can you focus on the breath without distinguishing it from all other objects?

 

I do like thoughtless meditation though!

[Starjumper]

10 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

There are many different types of enlightenment.. so basically everyones point of view is valid...

 

Sure!   Everything is everything and anything is anything.  Enlightenment and meditation are whatever any amateur says they are, in fact no one needs to become enlightened because they already are, they just don't know it yet!    Bullshit like that?

 

Young people have been brainwashed to think that opinions carry more weight than facts, specially when it's their opinion ... yahahaha.

 

This student is not ready.  

[Starjumper]

10 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

How can you focus on the breath without distinguishing it from all other objects?

 

Duhhh!    Explain how your brain works with awareness in twenty words or less.

 

10 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

I do like thoughtless meditation though!

 

Well possibly there is some hope then for this student.

[Limahong]

4 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

This student is not ready.

 

Hi Steve,

 

I will disqualify myself if I am ever asked to be your teacher.

 

- Anand

[Starjumper]

17 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Steve,

 

I will disqualify myself if I am ever asked to be your teacher.

 

- Anand

 

Hi Anand.  The teacher is not ready?  I haven't heard that one before ... but I've felt it.

 

Steve

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

The teacher is not ready?

 

Hi Steve,

 

This thread raises the question - Is enlightenment really desirable? Started by Will, October 21, 2017 with this note:

By enlightenment, I don't mean becoming a true sage or anything like that, but merely coming to realize basic Taoist "truths" (about how most dualities and desires are simply meaningless human inventions). 

 

I don't want you and I to be divided in the 'student-teacher' duality. Why? I just want to be your friend with us walking alongside each other. I like your direct nature - you grab a bull by its horns.

 

At this point in time, this thread is into its 23rd page.  Thus far, how many of its posts have taken into context Will's note?

 

I am not addressing the desirability of enlightenment. Why? Enlightenment is too big a word for me. 

 

Simply - your friendship is more desirable.

 

- Anand

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

I don't want you and I to be divided in the 'student-teacher' duality. Why? I just want to be your friend with us walking alongside each other. I like your direct nature - you grab a bull by its horns.

 

Don't concern yourself about such things.  The comment was kind of a lame attempt at some humor  Hell with this teacher/student stuff anyway.  I just like to share ideas with friends, my friend. As far as teaching is concerned, I am no longer concerned about sharing my system with at least one person, a lot of knowledge is being lost these days and I don't expect to help change that anymore.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

This thread raises the question - Is enlightenment really desirable? Started by Will, October 21, 2017 with this note:

By enlightenment, I don't mean becoming a true sage or anything like that, but merely coming to realize basic Taoist "truths" (about how most dualities and desires are simply meaningless human inventions).

 

The OP was kind of thtupid in a way, wasn't it.   The basic Taoist 'truths' (nice how it's in quotes) can be 'realized' by anyone with a bit of common sense and observation.

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

... common sense...

 

... is not common at times.

[Limahong]

4 hours ago, Starjumper said:

a lot of knowledge is being lost these days and I don't expect to help change that anymore.

 

Hi Steve,

 

I did a formal research on knowledge management a few years ago and these are my take:

- knowledge has been associated with power.

- this association is more skewed to closeted mindsets.

- the more I know, the more I realize how little I know.

- knowledge has a shelf life.

- it is dynamic and not static; thus lifelong learning.

- empty vessels know the loudest.

- true knowledge lies in silence.

- this silence is rooted in humility.

 

I also researched a little on knowledge sharing and these two factors are important - autonomy and trust. Thus of late I am more inclined to share with true seekers through PM - with freedom.

 

4 hours ago, Starjumper said:

The comment was kind of a lame attempt at some humor  Hell with this teacher/student stuff anyway.

 

Humor is great when it comes to knowledge sharing.  A route to enlightenment - whatever it is?

 

- Anand

Edited February 7, 2018 by Limahong
Enhance ...