Is enlightenment really desirable?

[Gunther]

42 minutes ago, Stosh said:

In the new world , the remedy for lunacy was to rub beaver testicles on your head , and so one may presume that there are , understandably,  limits to rational understanding. 

But what exactly is rational.

Like if somebody insults you therefore you get angry. Cause and effect. That could be called rational thinking.

Yet, you could also say because there was anger in you it caused you to be insulted. That is valid thinking. We know if there is no potential for anger there is simply no insult possible. It would give rise to compassion. (Which also has to be there in the first place).so there is no cause and effect  Surely that's not irrational?

Edited November 10, 2017 by Gunther

[C T]

44 minutes ago, Gunther said:

I would agree with you and the Buddha in that. Things aren't mysteriously buried in darkness but rather suppressed(which takes great effort) and or projected unto others. The analytical methods are mostly just listening and encouraging to let suppressed aspects of the personality rise up into the field of awareness. As they are seen they are known. Sure mostly they are immediately suppressed/projected again and people carry on as before, like you said, knowing but not acting remedially.

Same way, people might gather around a Zen master like Bankei, he tells them right now your ordinary mind is the Buddha mind. They feel it there and then, but soon after they go home and beat their wife, so to speak.

But I do like the concept of a collective unconscious (C.G. Jung)it's content would be intellectually unknowable and can only be grasped intuitively (like past lives??)

It does explain a lot, I don't see a major contradiction with Buddhism or Vedanta

 

If they know they are beating the wife then that action alone has karmic consequences. If they refuse to know, and in denial that they are beating the wife, that will also have karmic repercussions. What is hidden in his psyche can never be fully uncovered due to mind's basic empty nature, thus it would be a mistake to assume that his need to pummel the wife can only be neutralised when certain underlying factors or neuroses are sufficiently analysed. Of course if he is willing to be analysed it will perhaps help to an extent, but in a wider context, analytical exercises of this nature is a futile pursuit. In your own words, the unconscious extends beyond the individual. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by C T

[Gunther]

18 minutes ago, C T said:

 

The mind is not just empty but luminous, aware of itself. Only awareness seems to be the essence of all traditions, religions, doctrines. All the rest is secondary. Maybe a bit simplistic, minimalistic but so far I found no evidence to suggest otherwise

Edited November 10, 2017 by Gunther

[C T]

11 minutes ago, Gunther said:

The mind is not just empty but luminous, aware of itself. Only awareness seems to be the essence of all traditions, religions, doctrines. All the rest is secondary. Maybe a bit simplistic, minimalistic but so far I found no evidence to suggest otherwise

 

Im all for awareness. 

[Stosh]

Certainly true Ct , So I did not volunteer any analysis of SG today. and just mentioned sticks bells and balls, leaving the doubt for others to assign. but you are correct I think the effects of such are to be considered... in the context of individuals reations to them. ...Same could be said for pschoanalysis ..to be fair.

But I dont think buddhism has supplied the fix for mental illness, even to the poor level of modern psychology.

[Stosh]

Im sorry , I am not sure I am following your presentation.. I agree that being angry at insult is flawed rationally speaking. I know folks who regularly give each other a hard time , and its actually just play, but even more than that  ,the reaction is just not actually determined as a fact by the insult. 

Are we in agreement ?

PS the ocarina is magnifico.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Stosh

[C T]

Buddhas (like Padmasambhava, for eg) can spontaneously appear without being subject to reincarnation. There are others in the Vajrayana pantheon who have similar capabilities. 

 

Those who get to choose auspicious rebirths are boddhisattvas with high attainments. 

 

So the tradition asserts anyway. 

[C T]

9 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Certainly true Ct , So I did not volunteer any analysis of SG today. and just mentioned sticks bells and balls, leaving the doubt for others to assign. but you are correct I think the effects of such are to be considered... in the context of individuals reations to them. ...Same could be said for pschoanalysis ..to be fair.

But I dont think buddhism has supplied the fix for mental illness, even to the poor level of modern psychology.

 

The only allusion i made was to the idea that modern day psychology is still flawed and will continue to be flawed for a while, at least - I dont believe it was my intention to indicate that Buddhism was a more superior substitute for fixing chronic mental illness. 

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, C T said:

is actually a recognised debilitating condition. 

 

See 'Phobophobia'.

 

Same thing with depression, the feeling sad about feeling sad.

[Stosh]

4 minutes ago, C T said:

 

The only allusion i made was to the idea that modern day psychology is still flawed and will continue to be flawed for a while, at least - I dont believe it was my intention to indicate that Buddhism was a more superior substitute for fixing chronic mental illness. 

It is. and I will concede that Buddhism has probably done more for humanitys wellbeing .... so far

[Stosh]

6 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Same thing with depression, the feeling sad about feeling sad.

You must not be depressed

[Starjumper]

3 minutes ago, Stosh said:

You must not be depressed

 

Nope, that kind of masochism never appealed to me, but why do you say that?

 

I aint no expert on depression but it seems to me that people could take their lumps like adults and not self crucify over them, and most do.

 

I prefer a different kind of masochism.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Starjumper

[Gunther]

39 minutes ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

n of clear Xing and the abilities that can go with clearing out channels and undoing the knots that limit and bind a person's soul from the unlimited potential of Brahman (or Shiva,

Thanx, very interesting.

But suppose you managed as in the quote above, you would find yourself(without yourself) in silent bliss, infinite luminous emptiness, and all those concepts you speak of are gone. So call it shiva or Brahman or whatever, if now if you want some Tao above or beyond that can only be an idea, concept, believe, movement within that infinity. If you know what I mean 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Gunther

[Stosh]

4 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Nope, that kind of masochism never appealed to me, but why do you say that?

 

I aint no expert on depression but it seems to me that people could take their lumps like adults and not self crucify over them, and most do.

 

I prefer a different kind of masochism.

 

 

iI know a little bit about it , and thats not what is going on.  Thats all, one needs a really up close view to understand that kind of thing. 

[Gunther]

37 minutes ago, C T said:

Buddhas (like Padmasambhava, for eg) can spontaneously appear without being subject to reincarnation. There are others in the Vajrayana pantheon who have similar capabilities. 

 

Those who get to choose auspicious rebirths are boddhisattvas with high attainments. 

 

So the tradition asserts anyway. 

Like I said, all this are beautiful metaphors and myths, including reincarnation IMHO, until I find concrete evidence to the contrary. As actual facts they are oxymorons. If the individual mind and all inherent tendencies are dissolved in the universal conciousness, who or what can incarnate and have a will? Of course Padmasambava or Amithaba are just names for the Buddha mind, Brahman, Shiva,Tao, kingdom of heaven,, the absolute, the pure land itself. Naturally they are present everywhere at all times and incarnate every moment everywhere

Edited November 11, 2017 by Gunther

[Gunther]

48 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Same thing with depression, the feeling sad about feeling sad.

It's become habitual, they don't have to remember why they are sad.

Very sad

[Stosh]

Is it not better, to have lived a rich life, pusuing some crazy irrational but beautiful dream ?

[Starjumper]

46 minutes ago, Stosh said:

iI know a little bit about it , and thats not what is going on.  Thats all, one needs a really up close view to understand that kind of thing. 

 

Right, my comment was a little short sighted.  It can also be caused by a 'chemical imbalance'.  Recently I read a report that presented a new insight into depression, and that is that it is caused by a vitamin D deficiency, no kidding.  Aaaand, vitamin D deficiency is rampant, so much so it looks like a conspiracy   Also, people telling people that they can get enough vitamin D from the sun is wrong.  Theoretically yes, people could get enough vitamin D from the sun ... if they work out enough to sweat and then do NOT wash the oils off their skin, which is the common thing to do; and THEN they need to run around nearly naked in the sun for a few hours a day.  Otherwise people will have a vitamin D deficiency.  Another symptom that isn't mentioned in the following report is that with insufficient vitamin D people's jaws don't grow big enough to fit all their teeth, which is why wisdom teeth need to be removed.  Normally, with semi naked 'savages', all their teeth fit in their jaws.

 

Depression - #5 in the following list.

 

http://www.healthyway.com/content/symptoms-of-vitamin-d-deficiency-that-most-people-ignore/11266?rtg=higherpersp-5PbPwn&param4=hwy-fni-fbss-1334-demo

Edited November 11, 2017 by Starjumper

[Stosh]

5 minutes ago, Gunther said:

It's become habitual, they don't have to remember why they are sad.

Very sad

Thats not it either. they are caught in a web , if its not just chemical.. where the things that should bring joy , the impetus to go farther, do not.

They want to live richly , intensely , and with all their heart. 

[Stosh]

3 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Right, my comment was a little short sighted.  It can also be caused by a 'chemical imbalance'.  Recently I read a report that presented a new insight into depression, and that is that it is caused by a vitamin D deficiency, no kidding.  Aaaand, vitamin D deficiency is rampant, so much so it looks like a conspiracy   Also, people telling people that they can get enough vitamin D from the sun is wrong.  Theoretically yes, people could get enough vitamin D from the sun ... if they work out enough to sweat and then do NOT wash the oils off their skin, which is the common thing to do; and THEN they need to run around nearly naked in the sun for a few hours a day.  Otherwise people will have a vitamin D deficiency.  Another symptom that isn't mentioned in the following report is that with insufficient vitamin D people's jaws don't grow big enough to fit all their teeth, which is why wisdom teeth need to be removed.  Normally, with semi naked 'savages', all their teeth fit in their jaws.

 

http://www.healthyway.com/content/symptoms-of-vitamin-d-deficiency-that-most-people-ignore/11266?rtg=higherpersp-5PbPwn&param4=hwy-fni-fbss-1334-demo

That surely sounds valid. And I suggested as much, in real life, but there can be yet more. And it really is just the most saddest and wasteful ... thing...even so..

[Gunther]

46 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Thats not it either. they are caught in a web , if its not just chemical.. where the things that should bring joy , the impetus to go farther, do not.

They want to live richly , intensely , and with all their heart. 

Same difference methinks

How do you get caught in a web?

How do things turn into mechanical habits?

If I'm sad for a reason I'll get soon over it.

If I don't know why I'm sad, I'm just sad to be sad. You can't get rid of something that doesn't exist

[Stosh]

 No its not the loop of being sad about being sad.

its a situation where everything drags you back there. You dont believe the things which would make you happy are valid. That the other shoe will fall . Things have no bang for the buck. 

You need to understand that continuing on is an act of faith based of feedback. no feedback no reason to go on. They want to live and go on, its just that there is no payoff to keep em going.

What they do, doesnt touch on , what they need or its negated somehow. Not all depressions are the same, nor are they even all recognized . 

[Mudfoot]

The aeteology of depression. 

The more modern approach to depression is to look at learned helplessness/hindered flight. 

That means that you have a threat that you see no escape from, which gives you elevated cortisol levels and a suppression on your behaviour. 

And there are many ways to treat this,  and there is really no difference in efficacy between the methods. 

[Marblehead]

I'm not sure about my behavior being suppressed but I can state that it has been altered on many occasions.  Not so much any more though.  I'm either getting better or I just don't give a shit any more.

 

[Gunther]

11 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

Not all traditions. Shaivism has a different understanding of the absolute and highest attainment. Instead of atman and brahman, the shaivites have Shiva. But, the difference is not one of a name. Atman unbounded until it is identified with brahman is the goal for many types of Hinduism (so a soul can become liberated). But the conception of Brahman and Atman is static. The attainment of Shiva, by a jiva, is something dynamic. This is seen in the fact that "Shiva" is not just an abstract and static absolute being, it is the dynamic interplay of reality between clarity and illusion. And so, unlike Vedantic texts, Shaivite texts emphasize the identification with Shiva and the embodiment of different shakthis. 

 

Different, even, from this would be Taoism. There are many sects with many different focuses. But, the one goal that is consistent across all formal alchemical texts would be the transformation of the substance of a human and the immortalization of the human spirit so a person can merge with the Tao. It has more in common with Shaivism than with Vedantic Hinduism. But it is unique because it directly addresses and focuses on the material and energies of the body. The Self in Hinduism is the Yuan Shen in Taoism. So, with this, most Hindu and Buddhist schools and methods would be focused on the cultivation of clear Xing and the abilities that can go with clearing out channels and undoing the knots that limit and bind a person's soul from the unlimited potential of Brahman (or Shiva, depending on your tradition and its methods). This, however, only takes the substance of a person along for the ride. There is not a direct focus on the transformation and transmutation of the substance of a person. ---Well, there kind of is; but it doesn't make the leap into the prenatal work that Taoism does in authentic traditions. This may or may not matter; if high achievement is had in non-Taoist methods, a person can choose how or if they reincarnate; with full success in Taoist methods, a person will have fully transmuted their substance and could appear, at will, in different dimensions without reincarnating.

 

Edit/clarifier: my post was about religious goals and a general reference to method. Things that involve the direct invocation of an enlightened master or deity to facilitate a transformation were not included in what I was describing.

The story of Milarepa comes to mind. He is said to have been a magician/sorcerer who could cause hail and thunderstorms and what not. So all these shamanistic/Taoist/bon stuff is real, all the spirits demons, god's, immortals, whatever are real.

But they happen within the void, shunia, the Buddha mind. Like I said Milarepa gives a good account. I think he never looked back once he saw the true nature of the mind