Is enlightenment really desirable?

[blue eyed snake]

13 hours ago, Gunther said:

The mind is not just empty but luminous, aware of itself. Only awareness seems to be the essence of all traditions, religions, doctrines. All the rest is secondary. Maybe a bit simplistic, minimalistic but so far I found no evidence to suggest otherwise

 

nice and concisely said

[blue eyed snake]

12 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Same thing with depression, the feeling sad about feeling sad.

 

having been through debilitating periods of clinical depression I do not agree with that. Depression is a state wherein people cannot endure their emotions and therefore cannot feel them anymore. It's not about feeling sad, that's a mistake made by both layman and professionals. The word depression is overused widely, the real condition of it is only recognized by those who have been through it and some gifted professionals.

 

clearing it up means going through the painful memories that caused people to block up in that way, that is scary to do, the widely spread use of antidepressiva only makes it harder on the sufferers.

 

just my two cents of course

BES

[blue eyed snake]

11 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Right, my comment was a little short sighted.  It can also be caused by a 'chemical imbalance'.  Recently I read a report that presented a new insight into depression, and that is that it is caused by a vitamin D deficiency, no kidding.  Aaaand, vitamin D deficiency is rampant, so much so it looks like a conspiracy   Also, people telling people that they can get enough vitamin D from the sun is wrong.  Theoretically yes, people could get enough vitamin D from the sun ... if they work out enough to sweat and then do NOT wash the oils off their skin, which is the common thing to do; and THEN they need to run around nearly naked in the sun for a few hours a day.  Otherwise people will have a vitamin D deficiency.  Another symptom that isn't mentioned in the following report is that with insufficient vitamin D people's jaws don't grow big enough to fit all their teeth, which is why wisdom teeth need to be removed.  Normally, with semi naked 'savages', all their teeth fit in their jaws.

 

Depression - #5 in the following list.

 

http://www.healthyway.com/content/symptoms-of-vitamin-d-deficiency-that-most-people-ignore/11266?rtg=higherpersp-5PbPwn&param4=hwy-fni-fbss-1334-demo

 

thank you for coming back on your earlier statement. As a lot of problems that can befall people depression is multi-factorial, 

there's a clear genetically component ( and that is not the same as familial), high life stresses are a component ( there originates the emotional pain that people close up in their subconscious being) and the way the body is cared for and fed is of course a component.

 

about the relation between smaller jaws and vitamin D, i found this book very interesting, some countries one cannot get in the sun enough, traditionally codlivers are eaten there ( and in copious amounts too)

https://www.amazon.com/Nutrition-Physical-Degeneration-Weston-Price/dp/0916764206

[Mudfoot]

For those sensitive to it, changes in the amount of hours with light is also devastating. 

[cold]

Lack of vitamin D worsened with less sunlight.

[Starjumper]

Then there's also getting mad about getting mad.  What do the shrinks call that?

Getting pissed off about getting pissed off.

Getting angry about getting angry.

 

All same.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Starjumper

[cold]

Tantrum?

[Gunther]

31 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Then there's also getting mad about getting mad.  What do the shrinks call that?

Getting pissed off about getting pissed off.

Getting angry about getting angry.

 

All same.

Maybe it's a halfway step of becoming aware. Somebody needs tell them that the witness has to be aloof, distant, impartial. Or you can go mad.

I had lots of anger issue. And sure, I didn't like it once I became aware of it.

For example road rage. Started cursing and shouting in my car just because a crawler in front😀

Luckily I learned how to deal with it, just taking note without passing judgement, and soon if I still got angry sometimes it made me smile/laugh about myself.

As long as you can project your anger, sadness, fear, you feel justified, no problem, you blame somebody/thing else. Maybe once you blame yourself you end up in that double bind?

Edited November 11, 2017 by Gunther

[Lost in Translation]

Try not to judge.

 

That's hard, not easy.

 

Feel angry? Feel angry. No judgement.

Feel sad? Feel sad. No judgement.

Feel afraid? Feel afraid. No judgement.

 

This is not watching. This is feeling.

This is not awareness. This is feeling.

 

Feeling without judging. It's not easy.

[Gunther]

6 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Try not to judge.

 

That's hard, not easy.

 

Feel angry? Feel angry. No judgement.

Feel sad? Feel sad. No judgement.

Feel afraid? Feel afraid. No judgement.

 

This is not watching. This is feeling.

This is not awareness. This is feeling.

 

Feeling without judging. It's not easy.

Can you feel without being aware?

I don't think so. But awareness goes unnoticed ordinarily, takes on the form of its object/content

[Lost in Translation]

17 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Can you feel without being aware?

 

No, but you can be aware without feeling.

 

IMHO lots of spiritual seekers are really looking for ways to deal with emotional pain. Watching seems to promise a cure for pain at the risk of dissociation.

 

I feel (pun intended) it's important to approach pain holistically. It's there. Don't just be aware of it. Feel it. Don't bury it. Own it. Just don't let it own you. That's why I say no judgement.

[Gunther]

13 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

No, but you can be aware without feeling.

 

IMHO lots of spiritual seekers are really looking for ways to deal with emotional pain. Watching seems to promise a cure for pain at the risk of dissociation.

 

I feel (pun intended) it's important to approach pain holistically. It's there. Don't just be aware of it. Feel it. Don't bury it. Own it. Just don't let it own you. That's why I say no judgement.

Possible dangers.Maybe that's where a good teacher or therapist come into play. 

 

[cold]

Danger Will Robinson. Danger!

                          

Awareness without feeling = possible out of body experience ?

[Starjumper]

Good stuff in those posts.

 

2 hours ago, Gunther said:

Maybe it's a halfway step of becoming aware. Somebody needs tell them that the witness has to be aloof, distant, impartial. Or you can go mad.

I had lots of anger issue. And sure, I didn't like it once I became aware of it.

For example road rage. Started cursing and shouting in my car just because a crawler in front😀

Luckily I learned how to deal with it, just taking note without passing judgement, and soon if I still got angry sometimes it made me smile/laugh about myself.

As long as you can project your anger, sadness, fear, you feel justified, no problem, you blame somebody/thing else. Maybe once you blame yourself you end up in that double bind?

 

Ya, road rage!

 

When I wrote that: getting mad about getting mad I was thinking of the process I went through in meditation.  Earlier on I wold get mad because I caught myself thinking, then later on down the road I would get mad at myself for having gotten mad at myself    It didn't happen too much before I realized how silly that was, then it just kind of dissipated.

 

Road rage, one of my specialties, it happened a lot in Dodo Land up North.  Here not so much, but impatience sometimes still rears it's ugly head.  When I start cussing at the other person I kind of enjoy it now, much to my wife's dismay, partly because she imagines that I'm angry ... which makes me angry ... something like that =)

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

Ya, road rage!

 

70 minutes, 18 miles, 1 way.

5 days a week.

 

Lots of opportunity to reflect. Lots.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Lost in Translation
Removed stupid things I said.

[Mudfoot]

8 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

No, but you can be aware without feeling.

 

IMHO lots of spiritual seekers are really looking for ways to deal with emotional pain. Watching seems to promise a cure for pain at the risk of dissociation.

 

I feel (pun intended) it's important to approach pain holistically. It's there. Don't just be aware of it. Feel it. Don't bury it. Own it. Just don't let it own you. That's why I say no judgement.

This is why the health care have adopted a version of mindfulness. 

You practice to feel it, but also to be aware of what it is instead of being it. 

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, Mudfoot said:

This is why the health care have adopted a version of mindfulness. 

You practice to feel it, but also to be aware of what it is instead of being it. 

 

When my pain is great I don't say "get over it". Neither do I say "I am not this pain", nor "this pain is not real." Instead I say "I am this pain; this pain is me." Then, when the pain is through, it leaves on its own and I say "this too, is me."

 

Often I get confused. That is when I suffer. I am a work in process. That too, is me.

[ljazztrumpet]

On 10/24/2017 at 11:12 AM, steve said:

 

 

So if there is a feeling of meaninglessness, uncertainty, and nihilism; that is not enlightenment.

Nor is it the full realization of basic Taoist truths.

It is a partial truth that either needs to be abandoned, as you suggest, or much more deeply realized.

Spiritual practice can certainly have ups and downs, some of our realizations can be shocking and painful.

Overall, however, if it does not lead you to being better adjusted, more content, and more loving and supportive of others than, in my opinion, it's worthless and better left alone.

 

I hope that helps in some small way.

Wow - Closest definition of enlightenment I think I've seen.

 

@Will - If you are totally at your 'wit's end' and see no other possible practical solution to feeling more contentment, you could pray that Life removes any blocks you have to loving everyone and everything all the time. But make sure you've tried every other thing you can think of first to bring yourself contentment. This one, imo, should only be used as a 'last ditch' attempt if you have nothing left to lose..because it's, like, pretty intense..  Yeah, that emoji sums it up nicely..it will probably be your default expression if you do this! Or maybe  

 

Good luck dude! Sending you the + vibes of contentment..at least as much as I'm able

Edited November 12, 2017 by ljazztrumpet

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

When my pain is great I don't say "get over it". Neither do I say "I am not this pain", nor "this pain is not real." Instead I say "I am this pain; this pain is me." Then, when the pain is through, it leaves on its own and I say "this too, is me."

 

Often I get confused. That is when I suffer. I am a work in process. That too, is me.

Please take me out of this pain

I've had enough of that strain

Yet whatever I do

Seems to be but in vain

 

But at last now I see

That I don't want to be free

That I am loving that pain

'cause without pain there's no " me"

[Marblehead]

I prefer pleasure, not pain.

 

[Gunther]

9 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I prefer pleasure, not pain.

 

Good choice, and good luck.

If no pleasure available most take pain any day. To feel intensely alive. The gross ego can't just simply be. That is too subtle.

To understand the noble truth that life is suffering is not easy. We don't see that seeking pleasure means seeking pain😀😀

Edited November 12, 2017 by Gunther

[Mudfoot]

3 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 Instead I say "I am this pain; this pain is me." 

Clinically, you are taught not to identify with the pain, because that leads to greater consequences in life. 

 

So you feel the pain, but it is not you. 

 

But if your way works for you,  good. 

[Marblehead]

29 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Good choice, and good luck.

If no pleasure available most take pain any day. To feel intensely alive. The gross ego can't just simply be. That is too subtle.

To understand the noble truth that life is suffering is not easy. We don't see that seeking pleasure means seeking pain😀😀

Well, in my old age there are pains.  Part of the job of getting old.

 

Interesting, your view regarding pain substituting for pleasure.  I think you have it - the need to feel alive in some way.

 

Not many can attain the state of wu wei and hold to it for an extended period of time.  We need to feel alive.

 

I don't talk much about suffering.  That is a different concept from pain.  Suffering, IMO, is only mental.  And beign a Physicalist, well, ...

 

Yes, seeking, wanting what we don't have.  That normally keeps our mind screwed up.

 

 

[Gunther]

5 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Well, in my old age there are pains.  Part of the job of getting old.

 

Interesting, your view regarding pain substituting for pleasure.  I think you have it - the need to feel alive in some way.

 

Not many can attain the state of wu wei and hold to it for an extended period of time.  We need to feel alive.

 

I don't talk much about suffering.  That is a different concept from pain.  Suffering, IMO, is only mental.  And beign a Physicalist, well, ...

 

Yes, seeking, wanting what we don't have.  That normally keeps our mind screwed up.

 

 

Seeking pleasure or pain
Are in fact just the same
You can never be happy
With whatever you gain.

 

If you can simply be
All the glory to thee
There is nothing you need
You already complete.

[allinone]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

I don't talk much about suffering.  That is a different concept from pain.  Suffering, IMO, is only mental.  And beign a Physicalist, well, ...

 

reason you don't feel burning mental suffering as physical sensation is you don't have fuel. You use up all fuel by turning it into useless substance. For an example you feel desire to buy a cookie, just don't buy it, its that easy to cultivate and you will feel burning anger and pain and frustration at some point.

It is gradual process and after years of practice you will start looking for a way to stop suffering and you know its not by mindless self gratification or relaxation on spa.