Is enlightenment really desirable?

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, allinone said:

 

reason you don't feel burning mental suffering as physical sensation is you don't have fuel. You use up all fuel by turning it into useless substance.

Wait a fucking minute.  When did you become qualified to judge me?  I am a very useful person.  It's just that I don't let people use me any more.  I use my assets for myself.  That's only fair.  I earned them.

1 hour ago, allinone said:

 

For an example you feel desire to buy a cookie, just don't buy it, its that easy to cultivate and you will feel burning anger and pain and frustration at some point.

I have no desires.  I eat a cookie when I want to eat a cookie.  I keep them available in the house for whenever I want one.

 

And it is you who has these burning desires, not me.  Stop using me as your mirror.  And I cultivate in my gardens and get my hands all dirty. 

 

1 hour ago, allinone said:

It is gradual process and after years of practice you will start looking for a way to stop suffering and you know its not by mindless self gratification or relaxation on spa.

Where the fuck did you come up with this idea that I suffer?  I already said that I do not suffer and rarely even talk about suffering.  That's a Buddhist concept, not a Taoist concept.

 

I don't practice.  I live.  I do whatever the fuck I want to do and accept total responsibility for what I did or did not do.

 

So you go ahead and continue to suffer if that is what you wish to do but don't be putting that shit on me.  It does not apply.

 

But I will, at this time, wish you a nice day without suffering.

 

 

[allinone]

43 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Where the fuck did you come up with this idea that I suffer? 

 

i didn't say you suffer, i explained that you are not suffering because you eat cookie.

 

43 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

So you go ahead and continue to suffer if that is what you wish to do

 

i don't have to wish it, its by holding senses alerted to spot burglars or other surround noises, and when listening music then it is so low that its forces me to keep hearing active.

 

i now wonder if you able to discern between sound and hearing? and peeps ask what music you listen, well are you listening really?

 

---

its just description, you can play around, like notice certain tones what cause certain peak sensation, its also suffering, because it is like getting hit by a sound note

--

physical pain is same way, it has mental component what isn't pain, but at some point the pain is low and time to time peaks- thats suffering, you won't notice it as suffering but it occasinally peaks so you know that there is hidden source.

Edited November 12, 2017 by allinone

[allinone]

47 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I don't practice.  I live.

 

whole point is taht you won't end up in low birth, what doesn't ahve any discernment..

[Marblehead]

38 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

i didn't say you suffer, i explained that you are not suffering because you eat cookie.

Just checking to make sure we aren't misunderstanding each other.

 

38 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

i don't have to wish it, its by holding senses alerted to spot burglars or other surround noises, and when listening music then it is so low that its forces me to keep hearing active.

I don't bother myself with noises or burglars or any of the other paranoid stuff.  I don't even lock my front door.  

 

38 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

i now wonder if you able to discern between sound and hearing? and peeps ask what music you listen, well are you listening really?

Oh, I can't hear the sun but I promise you, it is making sound.  I not only listen to my music but I live it in my mind and sometimes even my body.  ne of the reasons I don't listen to rap, hip hop, or any of the new age music.  I can't live that stuff.  It is meaningless to me.

 

38 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

---

its just description, you can play around, like notice certain tones what cause certain peak sensation, its also suffering, because it is like getting hit by a sound note

Please!!!  Stop your darned suffering!!!  Enjoy the flow of good music.  Listen to the story, listen to how the instruments emotionally support the words of the story.  Is the story going somewhere or is it just BS?  Does it lift you up or push you down? 

 

38 minutes ago, allinone said:

--

physical pain is same way, it has mental component what isn't pain, but at some point the pain is low and time to time peaks- thats suffering, you won't notice it as suffering but it occasinally peaks so you know that there is hidden source.

Okay.  You have good thoughts here regarding pain and suffering.  The big question is:  Can you get beyond the suffering and just accept the existence of the pain?  There is pain because your body is telling you that something is not in balance.  Some pains I experience can be handled or eliminated.  Others are unrepairable so we acknowledge them and be aware that we do not make the pain worse.

 

If it hurts to walk then sit own and rest a while.  (That's what I am doing now.  I was outside working and got tired so I came in to sit at the computer for a while.  When rested I will go back outside and continue what I was doing.)

 

 

[Marblehead]

40 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

whole point is taht you won't end up in low birth, what doesn't ahve any discernment..

We won't talk about this as I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[wstein]

On 11/11/2017 at 2:12 PM, Lost in Translation said:

Feel angry? Feel angry. No judgement.

Feel sad? Feel sad. No judgement.

Feel afraid? Feel afraid. No judgement.

 

This is not watching. This is feeling.

This is not awareness. This is feeling.

 

Feeling without judging. It's not easy.

BE that which you are. No need to limit yourself to 'feeling'.

[wstein]

On 11/11/2017 at 3:16 PM, cold said:

Danger Will Robinson. Danger!

                          

Awareness without feeling = possible out of body experience ?

Isn't awareness without feeling basically the way of spirit?

[9th]

There are many, many, many other hearts beyond those of mankind.

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, wstein said:

BE that which you are. No need to limit yourself to 'feeling'.

 

to-may-to, to-mah-to.

[cold]

10 hours ago, wstein said:

Isn't awareness without feeling basically the way of spirit?

 

Describe or define spirit if you please.

Tia.

[Gunther]

18 minutes ago, cold said:

 

Describe or define spirit if you please.

Tia.

Mind

[cold]

Mind physically?

Or mind magically?

What causes my fingers to type on this keyboard?

 

Isn't a great part of self medication be it drugs, booze, shopping, and or even meditation an attempt to mute or destroy ones awareness?

[Lost in Translation]

5 hours ago, cold said:

Isn't a great part of self medication be it drugs, booze, shopping, and or even meditation an attempt to mute or destroy ones awareness?

 

Fascinating insight. Is it that we instinctively seek the void? 

[Gunther]

30 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Fascinating insight. Is it that we instinctively seek the void? 

Seemingly. But, the mind minus it's content is not void. Awareness is aware of itself. But I am repeating myself. It's indescribable, yet all the scriptures, teaching, philosophies, are full of pointers.

Also the seemingly materialistic Taoists or Greek stoics talk of nature or virtues, they all hint at that state of mind.

Blissful silence, infinite luminous space, oops, there, I done it again😀😀😀

Edited November 13, 2017 by Gunther

[cold]

23 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Fascinating insight. Is it that we instinctively seek the void? 

 

Fear is a great motivator to a point.

Personal thresholds vary as to the amount / level of thrills one chooses to expose themselves to.

The culture one develops in also plays a role.

 

2 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Seemingly. But, the mind minus it's content is not void. Awareness is aware of itself. But I am repeating myself. It's indescribable, yet all the scriptures, teaching, philosophies, are full of pointers

 

My mind minus it's content is not void?

I will ask again, do you consider my awareness separate from my mind?

My awareness lays outside my mind?

 

Why have a mind then?

Why the fear of losing ones mind, or life for that matter?

 

[Gunther]

41 minutes ago, cold said:

 

Fear is a great motivator to a point.

Personal thresholds vary as to the amount / level of thrills one chooses to expose themselves to.

The culture one develops in also plays a role.

 

 

My mind minus it's content is not void?

I will ask again, do you consider my awareness separate from my mind?

My awareness lays outside my mind?

 

Why have a mind then?

Why the fear of losing ones mind, or life for that matter?

 

Once you been there the fear of death is gone. Replaced by curiosity. To be relaxed, fully aware at the moment of death and see what happens for myself.

That said, it probably helps if you can die peacefully in your bed of old age, rather than demented, suffering excruciating pain or die an accidental or violent death 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Gunther

[cold]

Just now, Gunther said:

Once you been there the fear of death is gone. Replaced by curiosity. To be relaxed, fully aware at the moment of death and see what happens for myself. 

 

I suppose an afficiendo of Russian roulette might say something like that. I knew a few in my youth 

And someone who has done strong examinations of their beliefs, goals in this life and in the hereinafter.

However I suggest almost everyone else has an aversion to death. For many this aversion is described as fear.

 

51 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Seemingly. But, the mind minus it's content is not void. Awareness is aware of itself. But I am repeating myself. It's indescribable, yet all the scriptures, teaching, philosophies, are full of pointers.

Also the seemingly materialistic Taoists or Greek stoics talk of nature or virtues, they all hint at that state of mind.

Blissful silence, infinite luminous space, oops, there, I done it again😀😀😀

 

I have a friend who has "clinically died" on at least two occasions. His fear of death abated for a time.

I attended some seminars on hospice after having both my Father and an Aunt (I was very close to both) avail themselves of hospice services. They both lived with terminal illness for months.

 

Palliative care is often offered to those suffering illness can treat / address emotional, social, practical and spiritual issues.

Funeral directors Doctors and Nurses who work with cancer patients and others who are terminally ill commit suicide at higher levels than the general public. Go figure?

 

But back to spirit existing separate to mind.

Does one's spirit have a ego?

Peyote along with other mind altering substances have been used for spiritual exploration.

Aren't they called mind altering for a reason?

 

I admit I'm a little slow and won't be bothered in the least if and when you repeat your self.

[Gunther]

23 minutes ago, cold said:

 

I suppose an afficiendo of Russian roulette might say something like that. I knew a few in my youth 

And someone who has done strong examinations of their beliefs, goals in this life and in the hereinafter.

However I suggest almost everyone else has an aversion to death. For many this aversion is described as fear.

 

 

I have a friend who has "clinically died" on at least two occasions. His fear of death abated for a time.

I attended some seminars on hospice after having both my Father and an Aunt (I was very close to both) avail themselves of hospice services. They both lived with terminal illness for months.

 

Palliative care is often offered to those suffering illness can treat / address emotional, social, practical and spiritual issues.

Funeral directors Doctors and Nurses who work with cancer patients and others who are terminally ill commit suicide at higher levels than the general public. Go figure?

 

But back to spirit existing separate to mind.

Does one's spirit have a ego?

Peyote along with other mind altering substances have been used for spiritual exploration.

Aren't they called mind altering for a reason?

 

I admit I'm a little slow and won't be bothered in the least if and when you repeat your self.

Awareness or natural mind is sometimes called universal conciousness. It can be experienced only. Everything happens in that space. All thoughts, including god's, devils, spirits, immortals, whatever, you name it, including yourself and everything. How and why nobody knows it's a mystery.

But that this universal conciousness exist and that humans can experience it has been known to mankind since forever and is well documented.

Yet, I know that the great majority have no clue what it's about.

I signed up to this group because there are at least a few it seems who have had some experience, like the breathless state for example that occurs sometimes. Nothing to do with drugs, usually drugs cause only hallucinations which are like dreams within the mind. If they cause transcendental states it would be just momentary, under the influence so to speak

Edited November 13, 2017 by Gunther

[Wells]

1 hour ago, cold said:

My mind minus it's content is not void?

 

Enlightenment is simple but not that simple.

 

Seeing the void, yes, but seeing the void as empty is wrong, seeing the void as not empty is right.

 

According to Jigme Lingpa, the space of your mind normally is like muddy water.

It has to become like clear water.

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Wells

[Wells]

Jigme Lingpa in 'Distinguishing The Three Essential Points of Dzogchen' states:

 

"The ālaya [kun gzhi] is the basis of all samsara and nirvana;

It is not unlike muddy water.

[In it], because of confusion led by latent ignorance,

The brightness of wisdom [ye shes] and vidyā [rig pa] has become hidden."

 

He continues:

 

"Those who, not understanding this, mistake the ālaya [kun gzhi] for the dharmakāya, are like blind men wandering in the desert without a guide. Because of their confusion about the vital points of the basis and result, they have come to a standstill on the path that accomplishes buddhahood in one lifetime."

[Gunther]

15 minutes ago, Wells said:

11 minutes ago, Wells said:

Jigme Lingpa in 'Distinguishing The Three Essential Points of Dzogchen' states:

 

"The ālaya [kun gzhi] is the basis of all samsara and nirvana;

It is not unlike muddy water.

[In it], because of confusion led by latent ignorance,

The brightness of wisdom [ye shes] and vidyā [rig pa] has become hidden."

 

He continues:

 

"Those who, not understanding this, mistake the ālaya [kun gzhi] for the dharmakāya, are like blind men wandering in the desert without a guide. Because of their confusion about the vital points of the basis and result, they have come to a standstill on the path that accomplishes buddhahood in one lifetime."

Yes, excellent. 

 

[Lost in Translation]

56 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Awareness or natural mind is sometimes called universal conciousness. It can be experienced only. Everything happens in that space. All thoughts, including god's, devils, spirits, immortals, whatever, you name it, including yourself and everything. How and why nobody knows it's a mystery.

But that this universal conciousness exist and that humans can experience it has been known to mankind since forever and is well documented.

Yet, I know that the great majority have no clue what it's about.

 

Everything you write above equally applies to 'individual' consciousness. How does one know that there is a 'universal' consciousness?

[Wells]

.

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Wells

[Gunther]

9 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Everything you write above equally applies to 'individual' consciousness. How does one know that there is a 'universal' consciousness?

Intuitively, it can't be explained. Even you might find literature where bigger minds than myself had a good go at it😀

[Lost in Translation]

1 minute ago, Gunther said:

Intuitively, it can't be explained. Even you might find literature where bigger minds than myself had a good go at it😀

 

Excellent. I appreciate your honesty. IMO this is a perfectly acceptable answer.