Is enlightenment really desirable?

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Gunther]

14 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

My hint (that might differ from Gunther's) to this would be:

http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ch3.html

"18. Focusing around the center is a very subtle expression. The center is omnipresent; the whole universe is contained in it. This indicates the crucial point of Creation, and through this one enters the gate. One takes focusing as a hint, so that one doesn`t become rigidly fixed. This expression is alive and subtle."

Still, for a sceptic quite vague. All I would say is, your mind opens up into infinity, void, but Cristal clear, you don't feel your body or surroundings just that prana flowing gently through(no breath). And even without prior book knowledge you simply know this is it. Then you find countless references in all religions/traditions.

It's like a miracle. 

Mind blowing (pun intended😀😀)

Edited November 13, 2017 by Gunther
See

[Lost in Translation]

Not to derail the conversation, but consider this:

 

If your senses were removed, one by one and you lost your sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch; how long would your mind remain?

 

Is it even possible for the mind to remain absent perceptions? Is so, what does that mean? If not, what does that mean?

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Gunther]

4 minutes ago, Wells said:

Many traditions differ in their opinions if there is an actual universal consciousness or if the individual consciousness just aquires an universal quality.

In dzogchen for example, the universe exists only inside the consciousness of conscious beings and has no inherent existence or consciousness by itself.

Like the universe of The Simpsons exists only inside the tv screens of the people who watch The Simpsons and nowhere outside of that.

Very well said, it is debatable, you can't be dogmatic about it. Funny thing, even that debate or different views happen within that space. So IMHO at the moment of death proper all is revealed.

Personally I am inclined to disagree with

Dzogchen because it doesn't explain the situation prior to the individual conciousness. Or maybe it has some other explanation, which is outside my experience. My gut feeling is that Vedanta and the old rishis got it right. This luminous infinite space is eternal reality. Everything that appears in it is temporary and the nature of thought. The whole universe

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Gunther]

7 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

Most likely your mind would remain like muddy water, to use the picture of Jigme Lingpa.

Otherwise everybody would become enlightened at death.

The Tibetan book of the dead explains it all. You have a good chance at the moment of death if you are not distracted and go into a meditative state so to speak. If you become unconscious while in thought you left in muddy water. If you can stay aware your soul would leave out the top of your head into the clear light

[Gunther]

3 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

Even inside dzogchen there are strong disagreements, for example if the thodgal light visions are just delusions and should be ignored or if they reveal the highest truth and should be concentrated upon. I read dzogchen scriptures and books which differ extremely in this point.

 

Ah, you see, it's intuitive knowledge after all. The debate happens in the dualistic mind. Let everybody get there and see for himself😀

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Gunther]

2 minutes ago, Gunther said:

thodgal light visions are just delusions and should be ignored or if they reveal the highest truth and should be concentrated upon. I read

Personally I don't really meditate in the orthodox way. I want this clear head space permanently in everyday life. 24/7

And it's possible, if you this is your main interest overriding all attachments and so forth

[Gunther]

3 minutes ago, Wells said:

I personally consider a third possibility to be the most probable:

The emtiness aspect Alaya (kun gzhi) is like one unified empty field.

The luminosity aspect Rigpa is individual and every individual has one.

The dharmakaya in which the emptiness and the luminosity aspect are one is therefore individual concerning its luminosity aspect, but universal concerning its emptiness aspect.

To picture this, visualize a boundless and dark empty space with countless candle lights floating around in it.

Yes I read about that somewhere. The absolute (Krishna) is darkblue

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Gunther]

1 minute ago, Wells said:

I also agree that it's not so much about sessions of sitting down and meditating,

although that in itself surely helps too.

Instead, the method should be implemented into everyday living.

In a relaxed way, like they say, keep the mind on the leash, but not too tight and not too lose. Effortless effort maybe

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Lost in Translation]

5 minutes ago, Wells said:

In history, people of all times and cultures who supposedly achieved enlightenment came up with similar ideas and insights.

Some of those similar ideas and insights, if understood and explored extensively, are imo all one needs to get pointed into the right direction and to understand what to do.

 

Paths are paths, not destinations. There are many ways to get to the liquor store, I mean candy shop. ;-D

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Gunther]

7 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Paths are paths, not destinations. There are many ways to get to the liquor store, I mean candy shop. ;-D

Maybe, but it's a cheap hobby for sure😀😀

[Lost in Translation]

2 minutes ago, Wells said:

That's true but I was not talking about schools and systems, I was talking about ideas, concepts and insights which are universal and not dependant on a certain culture, school or time.

Concepts which can be understood and experienced by every lay individual in every time and culture and which have and will be discovered and explored again and again by individuals.

 

I understand. Once someone achieves understanding they are tempted to explain their experience to another. I becomes only a matter of time until a new school or system is born. Such is life.

 

That reminds me, I need to go reinvent the wheel... 

[Gunther]

3 minutes ago, Wells said:

 

That's true but I was not talking about schools and systems, I was talking about ideas, concepts and insights which are universal and not dependant on a certain culture, school or time.

Concepts which can be understood, experienced and explored by every lay individual in every time and culture and which have and will be discovered and explored again and again.

Eternal quest. But majority are not interested in depth. Keeping themselves distracted. But easy to see, in old age some have 2nd thoughts, regrets, doubts

[Lost in Translation]

2 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Maybe, but it's a cheap hobby for sure😀😀

 

That's why I started drinking 18 yo single malt. I don't need it to be too cheap a hobby! 

[Wells]

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Edited January 29, 2018 by Wells

[Gunther]

5 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

That's why I started drinking 18 yo single malt. I don't need it to be too cheap a hobby! 

I love a dram of malt. Only the best. Used to buy the 200ml bottles so I don't get carried away. Been 6 months without. Just because I can😀

[Wells]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

Eternal quest. But majority are not interested in depth. Keeping themselves distracted. But easy to see, in old age some have 2nd thoughts, regrets, doubts

 

I understand.

Well, depth depends on the individual understanding.

What for some individuals is just a part of a nursery rhyme, is for other individuals the concept that has the potential to lead them to enlightenment...

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Wells