Is enlightenment really desirable?

[cold]

2 hours ago, Chang said:

Enlightenment or happiness? Or perchance both or neither.

 

"Look at the happy moron

He doesn't give a damn.

I wish I were a moron

My God perhaps I am."

 

Thanks !

[Starjumper]

6 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

True, realizations like that are just more thoughts about the whole thing.

 

The whole thing      Some people (bibliophiles) seem to think that reading about the realizations makes them a realizer.   No sorry, that's not how it works.  You can read about all the realizations online for free and they are essentially worthless, realizations and 50 cents will get you a half assed cup of coffee in Ecuador.  Realizations come after the enlightenment experience, when thought returns to stillness, and a person who has had the experience will understand and know all the realizations without ever reading a single word about them.  It springs spontaneously from the new underlying way they look at things, not from reading books.  In addition they don't really give a damn about these realizations and just ignore them or forget them.  In the pursuit of knowledge ideas are gathered, in the pursuit of Tao ideas are forgotten.

 

Wisdom is concepts that spring from the mind of a wise person.  Reading or hearing about these wisdoms and repeating them is no longer wisdom, it's parroting, get a bird instead.  Spiritual teachers are nothing more than cheap parrots, and we won't label their 'followers' right away.  Oops, sorry -->  buddhists

Edited October 24, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

Well maybe the realizations aren't worthless after all.  In fact spiritual teacher type parrots often use them to bilk a lot of money off of misguided 'seekers'.

[Stosh]

On 10/21/2017 at 11:44 AM, Will said:

This is a very interesting, provocative question I've been pondering intensely over the last few days. Is it really desirable to become enlightened?

Obviously , there are those who desire it , so , yes. But , What this means to you personally , and whether this is an improvement , is up to you. 

 

By enlightenment, I don't mean becoming a true sage or anything like that, but merely coming to realize basic Taoist "truths" (about how most dualities and desires are simply meaningless human inventions). 

Consider the Taoist truths as resolutions of personal foibles , and you would construe them to be advantageous undoubtedly. Wouldn't anyone be better off with their issues resolved ?.

Now, many people are very content with their lives when they are not enlightened. Perhaps they work for a charity or have ambitions to become a social activist. They believe that what they are doing is the right thing, and matters a lot.

I don't know the happiness levels of everyone else to be honest, but there are a lot of issues that go unresolved. Even activism and charity have a down side , they still ride the roller-coaster. 

 

Contrast that with me, who's currently "enlightened" in the sense previously described, and is feeling like nothing has meaning. This does not make me feel very content. Of course, Zhuangzi felt very content, but it took a lot of practice and dedication for him to reach that point. Whereas for those who aren't enlightened, I get the sense that many of them are pretty content without having to put in that kind of dedication.

When nothing has intrinsic meaning, any meaning that things have, is that which we impart , nihilism is a dangerous ..one step shy ..of the goal.

 

In other words, isn't enlightenment the harder road to contentedness? Might I be better off trying to "forget" Taoism and postmodern philosophy and make myself like a "normal" person? Because what is really the benefit of all this uncertainty and nihilism? 

No, because nihilism , the bummed out unfulfilled need for externally presented meaning,, is not the end game, and normalcy is  not very often found as the road to being happy or at peace. Its a nicer,, but still a,,  roller coaster one might return to. 

 

I suppose another question that ties in with this is, "Is happiness the only thing I should want?" I know I've discussed this here before, with no clear answer coming out of it. But, basically, if happiness is the only thing one can really strive for, what benefit have I gained by adding uncertainty and meaninglessness to my life? By contrast, if there is some "higher purpose" than my personal happiness, then perhaps the uncertainly associated with Taoism is okay.

Taoism doesn't deem happiness to be a thing one needs to want as to take the throne of meaning. Meaning being undefined externally speaking leaves you still free to pick what it is that you want to have meaning... being personally happy is just one choice, another is being of service to community , fostering children ,or the planet, or justice ,or a profession , or stillness,, etc.....   Consider thoroughly what happiness is , and it may elude , and you may find it not being all that important,, dunno , You're at the center of the universe, the measure of all things 

 

I'm not actually considering leaving Taoism; it's just that questions like this really bother me. 

 Don't be bothered , life's too short. 

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Stosh

[cold]

1 hour ago, thursday said:

Been finding myself with similar questions.. Although I catched glimpses of inner peace and (unconditional) love in the past, have been finding it hard to get back there. It's almost like I have wanted to turn my back to it all and just fit in with "normal" people. Not sure what "normal" even means. It's likely true that some people that work for charities and the greater good are more at peace than others, but these people aren't the norm either, I don't think. There are skillful ways to live and less skillful ways. We need to have the will  to eliminate less skillful ways or replace less skillful with more skillful. Easier said than done when immersed in a culture of (mainly) distractions. This is why we need to be honest with ourselves on a spiritual path.. but could be I'm cuckoo by now too..  

 

Have you first hand experience with people whom work with charities and or the greater good?

 

What are examples of skillful ways of living versus not so skillful if you please.

 

6 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

You're concept of enlightenment is way off.

 

 

If your concept of enlightenment is way off then you aren't really there yet are you?  Chuang Tzu was at peace, you could say contented, but inner peace is more accurate because contentment can be shallow.  

 

Yes it takes a lot of practice, but you do the practice for it's own sake, not for a goal of enlightenment.  Contentedness can be a shallow manifestation of ego.

 

 

You have to go through hell to get to heaven, you have to become a bit crazy to become sane.  Is that worth it to you?  Only you can tell.

 

 

Taoism won't lead you to enlightenment, only a lot of meditation will, and high power energy work increases the chance, but most of all it requires a certain attitude towards life.  The benefit is a sense of inner peace that has it's foundation on the bedrock of your being.

 

 

You can want whatever you want, but wanting happiness will not get you happiness.

 

 

It gives you a glimpse of truth.

 

 

Your purpose can be whatever you want it to be, but focussing on happiness seems kind of selfish and egotistical and having that attitude will prevent a person from experiencing enlingtenment.  

 

 

That's what questions are for, but questioning enlightenment is useless, it's something you need to feel.  The idea that it's all about obtaining some realizations is Buddhist bullshit.

 

My pool of contentment is pretty deep.

I float in it in peace most of the time.

Yes, I have an ego, it is the foundation of my being, and I suspect without it I wouldn't survive very well or very long.

 

In my experience wanting anything doesn't lead to happiness.

But eating a nourishing meal when hungry can lead to contentment.

And I find that sleeping when tired is very useful and satisfying too!

[C T]

1 hour ago, thursday said:

Been finding myself with similar questions.. Although I catched glimpses of inner peace and (unconditional) love in the past, have been finding it hard to get back there. It's almost like I have wanted to turn my back to it all and just fit in with "normal" people. Not sure what "normal" even means. It's likely true that some people that work for charities and the greater good are more at peace than others, but these people aren't the norm either, I don't think. There are skillful ways to live and less skillful ways. We need to have the will  to eliminate less skillful ways or replace less skillful with more skillful. Easier said than done when immersed in a culture of (mainly) distractions. This is why we need to be honest with ourselves on a spiritual path.. but could be I'm cuckoo by now too..  

I dont think you are cuckoo at all. 

 

Skilfulness is an apt term which has deep significance if one's aim is to remain authentic. It usually revolves around total honesty, which is what you seem to show here. 

[thursday]

26 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Well maybe the realizations aren't worthless after all.  In fact spiritual teacher type parrots often use them to bilk a lot of money off of misguided 'seekers'.

 

Often? It would be interesting to get a clear guide for people on what type of teachers are like that and which ones are actually sincere. To me it would seem that a sincere teacher, whom has had real enlightenment experiences, would not fall prey to such horrible deeds, misguiding seekers. Pride can make us feel entitled to all sorts of diagnoses on other people's paths.. edit: speaking for myself.

Edited October 24, 2017 by thursday

[thursday]

Skillful means to alleviate suffering.. making a plan to quit addictions, starting/sticking with it, finding a way to introduce healthier foods into our diets. For many here various types of meditations..

 

I have done charity work in the past.. Currently not so much and I really wish I had the courage to start something again, I shouldn't be so lazy.

[Starjumper]

23 minutes ago, thursday said:

Often? It would be interesting to get a clear guide for people on what type of teachers are like that and which ones are actually sincere.

 

I think a lot of the unenlightened teachers are sincere, some of them do it for the money, some of them do it for their ego, and some others probably think it helps.  It can help superficially but the superficial soon fades away and the 'seeker' is left where they started more or less, just with more ammunition to beat themselves up with when they make a 'mistake'.  In my view, if it contains bullshit I classify it as religion, spirituality is silent!

 

Quote

To me it would seem that a sincere teacher, whom has had real enlightenment experiences, would not fall prey to such horrible deeds, misguiding seekers.

 

A sincere teacher who has experienced enlightenment will focus on the important thing, meditation.  They may offer a little religious BS along the way to provide some motivation for the students to continue meditating when their system doesn't have enough techniques to keep their students interested and focussed on meditation.  Other enlightened ones who like money no doubt realize that many students are wankers and that they will never become enlightened so instead they give the students what they really want, which are the ingredients to provide for more wanking. In this case I would say that they aren't really misguiding the seekers.  I hope that makes sense.  

 

Those types of teachers may throw big bullshit seminars for the public and then have a few inner door students who focus on meditation instead.

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Starjumper

[thursday]

3 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

I think a lot of them are sincere, some of them do it for the money, some of them do it for their ego, and some others probably think it helps.  It can help superficially but the superficial soon fades away and the 'seeker' is left where they started more or less, just with more ammunition to beat themselves up with when they make a 'mistake'.  In my view, if it contains bullshit I classify it as religion, spirituality is silent!

 

 

A sincere teacher who has experienced enlightenment will focus on the important thing, meditation.  They may offer a little religious BS along the way to provide some motivation for the students to continue meditating when their system doesn't have enough techniques to keep their students focussed on meditation.  Other enlightened ones who like money no doubt realize that many students are wankers and that they will never become enlightened so instead they give the students what they really want, which are the ingredients to provide for more wanking. In this case I would say that they aren't really misguiding the seekers.  I hope that makes sense.  

 

 Wankers?  .. You'd have to elaborate a little on that, but I agree that without meditation there's no way to get to enlightenment (according to the teachers I'm familiar with).

 

How do you mean, more ammunition to beat themselves up with when they make a mistake? Like guilt programming from teachers? How would that work?

[silent thunder]

I contend there is no need to meditate, or pursue, or do... anything.

 

The one truth, source, tao, enlightened awareness is never not present and it is you, now.  This is it.

 

To seek is to embody seeking, not finding, nor being.

 

Let go of everything and what remains? 

 

awareness.

 

let go and be that which is... the rest is... mind stuff.

[Starjumper]

14 minutes ago, thursday said:

How do you mean, more ammunition to beat themselves up with when they make a mistake? Like guilt programming from teachers? How would that work?

 

I took some real high powered expensive self improvement seminars and let me tell you it got me excited and motivated I thought they were great.  I had seen the light!  But then after a little while the motivation and excitement started to fade away.  It faded and faded and faded until there I was, back to me same old self; but now I knew that i had let it fade away.  When I didn't keep up with all the gung ho, go for it, methods but I had the knowledge of what I was 'supposed' to be doing to be a success then I felt like I was failing with those ideas.  Then the ideas that seemed so great at first turned out to be realizations of failure and inadequacy (according to them).  Since I was now aware of what I 'should' be doing and yet wasn't doing it - that is ammunition to beat yourself up with.  I think Western religion in particular, and some Eastern religions do this.  Taoism doesn't do it so much because, at least in the TTC, Lao tzu doesn't tell people what they 'should' be doing, he tells people what the sages do instead.  So these then end up being more like signposts along the Way.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Starjumper

[thursday]

2 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

I contend there is no need to meditate, or pursue, or do... anything.

 

The one truth, source, tao, enlightened awareness is never not present and it is you, now.  This is it.

 

To seek is to embody seeking, not finding, nor being.

 

Let go of everything and what remains? 

 

awareness.

 

let go and be that which is... the rest is... mind stuff.

 

Hey, that sounds like a great place to be in, but didn't it take you a lot of time spent meditating and active sincerity to get there?

 

[Starjumper]

16 minutes ago, thursday said:

 Wankers?  .. You'd have to elaborate a little on that, but I agree that without meditation there's no way to get to enlightenment (according to the teachers I'm familiar with).

 

Wankers is the British term for the label I prefer to use - mental jerk offs.

 

Well, I guess technically wanker just means jerk off, but it has a connotation of mental to it.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Starjumper

[cold]

1 minute ago, C T said:

I dont think you are cuckoo at all. 

 

Skilfulness is an apt term which has deep significance if one's aim is to remain authentic. It usually revolves around total honesty, which is what you seem to show here. 

 

Total honesty?

Is that humanly possible.

I have known a lot of animals up close and personal, they are not without guile.

 

A person who speaks untruths may be authentic to themselves.

A person who speaks untruths well, may in time develop expertise in this skill as it is?

A skillful liar?

 

1 minute ago, thursday said:

Skillful means to alleviate suffering.. making a plan to quit addictions, starting/sticking with it, finding a way to introduce healthier foods into our diets. For many here various types of meditations..

 

I have done charity work in the past.. Currently not so much and I really wish I had the courage to start something again, I shouldn't be so lazy.

 

Well that's an interesting definition, "Skillful means to alleviate suffering..." but not by all means inclusive.

 

"... making a plan to quit addictions,"  whose addictions, whose suffering?

Does the old saying Charity begins at home apply?

If not why not?

 

Starting sticking with anything is generally a good thing as is eating healthy nourishing food.

Both of those take effort. For example healthy food is grown in a healthy manner with respect to many factors and some skill is required. Nourishment both physical and spiritual, will undoubtedly arise from efforts seeking healthy nourishing food.

 

Likewise someone who does charitable work for monetary compensation is not as likely, in my opinion, to be a nourished as on who gives freely of their efforts. I cant state that as a truth but in my limited experience working with both employed personel and volunteers the volunteers by and large seemed to be at the least more peaceful of the two.

 

 I find a smile given with authenticity can be a simple act of charity that helps both the giver and the receiver.

Yes! Your baby is adorable, maybe a lie, but one for which one can be forgiven if it is stated to prevent suffering and is followed with a smile.

 

How's about that for skilfull?

 

 

[C T]

10 minutes ago, cold said:

 

Total honesty?

Is that humanly possible.

I have known a lot of animals up close and personal, they are not without guile.

 

A person who speaks untruths may be authentic to themselves.

A person who speaks untruths well, may in time develop expertise in this skill as it is?

A skillful liar?

 

We, as humans, possess unlimited potential, so anything is possible. 

 

By definition, one who speaks untruths is dishonest. One who habitually speaks untruths is habitually dishonest. Its not that difficult to deduce. 

[silent thunder]

On 10/24/2017 at 0:36 PM, thursday said:

 

Hey, that sounds like a great place to be in, but didn't it take you a lot of time spent meditating and active sincerity to get there?

 

Yes.  Well said and absolutely...  yet everything in the end is part of truth.   Even lies and side tracks are profoundly useful as untruth reveals truth by exemplifying what truth is not and in my experience... all of it, every bit of trying and not trying becomes grist for the mill of realization, once the seed of waking sprouts... the process, once begun flows outside one's control and desires and relentlessly presents situations where illusion is stripped away. 

 

For years in fact my very meditating and seeking was the final untruth another desire to dissolve. Another attachment to be relinquished in realization.

 

The real action, the pivot around which realization is birthing, seems to have been extreme spiritual and physical exhaustion.  A critical mass of release where every aspect of self, perception and notions of mind simply fell away, not from desire, or effort, but from complete and utter exhaustion.

 

Exhaustion so complete, the only 'thing' remaining was not a thing at all, just awareness.  When no more inertia to create and maintain mind stuff was present, when figuratively and literally I was lying in that position of utter letting go due complete inability to maintain any facades, or sustain inertia in anything...

 

awareness abides. 

 

emptiness, bliss, clarity all seem intimately related, but really the ground is just pure awareness.

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by silent thunder
strike out and change a phrase

[silent thunder]

man that seems convoluted and wordy...

how bout this:

 

the effort and process of meditation is not the source of enlightenment.

 

rather enlightenment is effortless realization and is what remains when all illusion falls away.

 

enlightenment is the natural state, always abiding effortlessly and seemingly arising when realization is no longer avoidable by any means available to the mind or any human process.

Edited October 24, 2017 by silent thunder
clarify wording in last sentence

[cold]

20 minutes ago, C T said:

We, as humans, possess unlimited potential, so anything is possible. 

 

By definition, one who speaks untruths is dishonest. One who habitually speaks untruths is habitually dishonest. Its not that difficult to deduce. 

 

But who decides the truth?

Outside of mathematics, does a simple majority agreeing make it so? 

Therein lies the question.

 

Does just one truth exist for every situation, every individual?

I think not.

 

I deduce those whom play "Judge, jury and executioner", that is those who "know" the truth are wrong more often than not.

That's why we offer jury trials as an option, as suppose to a single Judge deciding beyond a reasonable doubt guilt or innocence of a person.

 

By default one shoe does not fit all and in general chickens don't have teeth but as you pointed out anything is possible, the shoe will fit someone.

 

And some where exists a chicken with teeth.

I have it from a reliable source, Diogenes.

Familiar with him?

[Lost in Translation]

18 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

rather enlightenment is effortless realization and is what remains when all illusion falls away.

 

A boy grows up in a crappy little town. He hates it. It's so boring. Everyone there is old, and stupid.

 

First chance he gets, he moves away. He moves to the big city. He's surrounded by fun, and excitement, and adventure!

 

He meets a girl, falls in love, marries and has children. His career takes off. He makes money. He's successful.

 

His kids grow up. He begins to feel old. He gets tired of the traffic, and the crowds, and the stress. He dreams of a simpler life.

 

One day he retires. He sells the house and moves back to the same crappy little town he grew up in.

 

And he loves it!

[C T]

11 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

A boy grows up in a crappy little town. He hates it. It's so boring. Everyone there is old, and stupid.

 

First chance he gets, he moves away. He moves to the big city. He's surrounded by fun, and excitement, and adventure!

 

He meets a girl, falls in love, marries and has children. His career takes off. He makes money. He's successful.

 

His kids grow up. He begins to feel old. He gets tired of the traffic, and the crowds, and the stress. He dreams of a simpler life.

 

One day he retires. He sells the house and moves back to the same crappy little town he grew up in.

 

And he loves it!

good one!! lol

[cold]

8 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

A boy grows up in a crappy little town. He hates it. It's so boring. Everyone there is old, and stupid.

 

First chance he gets, he moves away. He moves to the big city. He's surrounded by fun, and excitement, and adventure!

 

He meets a girl, falls in love, marries and has children. His career takes off. He makes money. He's successful.

 

His kids grow up. He begins to feel old. He gets tired of the traffic, and the crowds, and the stress. He dreams of a simpler life.

 

One day he retires. He sells the house and moves back to the same crappy little town he grew up in.

 

And he loves it!

 

The circle of life!

[Lost in Translation]

Just now, cold said:

The circle of life!

 

The circle of seeking...

[cold]

 

2 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

The circle of seeking...

 

I suspect as long as we are living we shall be seeking...

[wstein]

Thanks to all that took this topic seriously and answered in an authentic manner. Too often 'enlightenment' topics go off the rails right away.