Is enlightenment really desirable?

[SeekerOfHealing]

On 6.11.2017 at 8:31 PM, Starjumper said:

Enlightenment Experience

 

Here I will describe what the process of enlightenment is like a Taoist system of nei kung, the spiritual path of the warrior and the path of the wizard.  

 

It is characterized by a sudden change in your state of being and awareness. It happens so suddenly it's like flipping a light switch, and you are intensely aware of the sudden and profound shift. It is characterized primarily by a couple of things, one of which is emotional bliss and the other is called cessation, which means your thinking completely stops. When thinking stops then your sense of ego also stops because the ego, or intellectual sense of self, is generated purely by thinking.  A lot of people overuse the word bliss, and it’s used in advertising, so it has been cheapened, also when people think of bliss they will be thinking of physical bliss, which isn’t so hard to come by, with sex or drugs for example.    Emotional bliss is completely different from physical bliss and it is a very powerful feeling, not to be confused with some feelings of happiness.  It is something that most people will never experience, even fleetingly.  The emotional bliss makes you feel acceptance and unconditional love for others, it makes you feel like everyone and everything is wonderful, that everything is perfectly fine, and there are really no problems in the world. This condition lasts for several days, slowly tapering off after the first day.  For me the emotional bliss and cessation of thinking lasted in full strength for about a day.   The second day the emotional bliss was a little bit less and there was a little bit of thinking. The third day marked the ending of the emotional bliss which tapered off to feeling normal but content.  Thinking also returns to it’s normal condition.  

 

Edited - I discovered my computer can take dictation, but it needed a lot of fixing and I didn't find all the places to fix first time around.

 

Now when thinking returns then you start to think about what it is that just happen to you. You realize it's something very special because it never happened to you before and by the way it probably will never happen again either.   i think in most cases people who haven’t even read much about it will get the idea that they just had an enlightenment experience, however they may not be sure if they have read some of the bullshit concerning enlightenment which is put out by some well meaning but clueless amateurs.

 

One of the first things that happens when thinking returns is that you have some of your deep questions answered instantly. I think in Mahayana Buddhism it is called Rain Cloud Samadhi, where they say that all the knowledge in the universe pours down on you like a sudden cloudburst, but that's an exaggeration.  What happens is that no matter what the deep and seemingly impossible question that you may have, philosophical or about human nature, the answer comes to you right way and it feels like the best answer.  

 

I think it requires a lot of self honesty to have the experience in the first place, but once thinking returns then the self honesty reaches a level of savage ruthlessness.  You don’t kid yourself or make excuses any more, and a related byproduct of this is that you don’t let other people kid you nor accept any excuses from them either.  Your response to people, on seeing them lying to themselves and you, whether on purpose or not, can be ruthless as well.   After all, if people are deceiving themselves and lying to themselves they can’t help but lie to you as well, because that is their view of things, confused as it may be.  This is one thing that contributes to the emotionally dark post enlightenment time that is frequently reported.

 

A little later, as you start thinking more about things from your new point of view of ruthless honesty the negative and dark things in the world seem stronger, more in your face so to speak, more wrong. This is in great contrast to your previous experience of emotional bliss and feeling that everything is wonderful. Your new level of self honesty causes you to accept these things, however it becomes depressing and upsetting to see all this shit in the world and the terrible things that people do to each other.  When some people get to this point in the post enlightenment experience the literature reports that they sometimes go crazy or commit suicide because it's so depressing. 

 

This is where the bravery and patience of a warrior helps you. Even though you become depressed and saddened you realize this is the way of the world and of course you want to help make it better.  You want to improve things, and since you know that this practice you have which lead you to have this wonderful experience and love and honesty can be so beneficial to others you think that everyone should have the same experience and you want to help them have it. This is the state of enlightenment, which is actually post enlightenment (the word enlightened, ending in the letters ‘ed’, means past tense) which the Buddhists call bodhisattva. So then you want everybody to become your students and learned this wonderful chi kung which took you there. It takes some time to realize that most people are not interested in this process, they don't believe you could take them there anyway, and even if they did most of them really don't want to do the work or stick with it. This is brought home more strongly when you notice all the money grubbing unenlightened idiots whose advertising uses promises enlightenment generally combined with the concepts of ‘quick and easy’.  So after a few years you just kind of give up and realize you'll be lucky to help even one person, and you end up not really giving a damn about all of people who don't really give a damn about themselves either since the main things they care about are egotistical. This State is what the Buddhists call being a Buddha, actually giving up and letting go and letting them run their rat race to be first to the slaughter house.  Due to feelings of empathy and compassion you wish them well and wish you could do something to help but in the end  wishing them to have not too much pain on their blind journey.

 

 

What you described here is jhana - not enlightenment. Even that jhana is generally the same as enlightenment (strong xin and rafination of it so that perception gone beyond 6th consciousness) but not really the same. it's like bootleg enlightenment. you can see and understand what is it, but this is only the preview. permanent state of what you explained is enlightenment (perfection of xin). perfection of ming is immortal body. add perfect ming and xin and you have yang shen. Even Buddha could live eons as he was perfected in ming and xin.

 

Most of your guys think can go into unhuman transformation just reading about self, non-self and stuff like this. It's pathetic. It will not bring anything. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

it's like bootleg enlightenment.

 

Quote of the day! ;-)

[Lost in Translation]

4 hours ago, thursday said:

Reminds me of power being out this week several times and trying to flip a switch to no avail. Doubts about my path have been prevalent at this time despite previous experiences. "I want to believe, but.." & if only I could flip that switch and make the power go on!

 

Thing is, I don't know if the power is on. I've never tested it by flipping the switch. I am afraid to do that, since I know that will end the question. I'll either go the route of faith, no holding back - or I'll lose that option forever. This is a variation on Shrodinger's cat. I'm not ready to open the box and see if the cat is dead or not.

[ljazztrumpet]

On 11/6/2017 at 2:31 PM, Starjumper said:

 

 

This is where the bravery and patience of a warrior helps you. Even though you become depressed and saddened you realize this is the way of the world and of course you want to help make it better.  You want to improve things, and since you know that this practice you have which lead you to have this wonderful experience and love and honesty can be so beneficial to others you think that everyone should have the same experience and you want to help them have it. This is the state of enlightenment, which is actually post enlightenment (the word enlightened, ending in the letters ‘ed’, means past tense) which the Buddhists call bodhisattva. So then you want everybody to become your students and learned this wonderful chi kung which took you there. It takes some time to realize that most people are not interested in this process, they don't believe you could take them there anyway, and even if they did most of them really don't want to do the work or stick with it. This is brought home more strongly when you notice all the money grubbing unenlightened idiots whose advertising uses promises enlightenment generally combined with the concepts of ‘quick and easy’.  So after a few years you just kind of give up and realize you'll be lucky to help even one person, and you end up not really giving a damn about all of people who don't really give a damn about themselves either since the main things they care about are egotistical. This State is what the Buddhists call being a Buddha, actually giving up and letting go and letting them run their rat race to be first to the slaughter house.  Due to feelings of empathy and compassion you wish them well and wish you could do something to help but in the end  wishing them to have not too much pain on their blind journey.

What I have noticed, being involved in spiritual healing circles for quite awhile, is that if a person is really suffering they are usually open to just about anything. I know of many stories where loved ones/friends 'sent' love to a person afflicted with a physical and/or emotional sickeness - or a serious addiction. Many times these people don't know that anyone is doing anything on their behalf, but they still recover - they become healthy, they lose the taste of whatever their addicted to. Quite amazing really. Now, if they continue in their current behavior, maybe, after awhile, they fall back into the original condition, on the other hand, perhaps they realize that a change is necessary for them to maintain their healing. I've gotten to the point where I usually can tell if a person gives a damn about truly healing, or just wants to stick with their egoic pursuits. Those who are truly ready, tend to receive healing - In the main healing group I was in, we had what were called 'success reports'. Whenever possible there would be a medical doctor who would verify the healing (there were many thousands of medical doctors in this spiritual healing group.) and it would be shared throughout the group as a kind of motivating factor.

 

All this being said, I can't say these people were in the majority, because they had to be at that stage where they were suffering enough to give up the egotistical behaviors that were causing their sicknesses/addictions. But the dozens or more healings I have been aware of in this particular manner have been extremely impressive to me. Even if you can just help just one person, that is BIG. Who knows what they will go on to? :-)

[thursday]

23 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Thing is, I don't know if the power is on. I've never tested it by flipping the switch. I am afraid to do that, since I know that will end the question. I'll either go the route of faith, no holding back - or I'll lose that option forever. This is a variation on Shrodinger's cat. I'm not ready to open the box and see if the cat is dead or not.

 

Not sure what you mean, sounds like you are overthinking things a bit, but in any case I wish you courage.

[cold]

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 11:00 AM, Lost in Translation said:

 

Thing is, I don't know if the power is on. I've never tested it by flipping the switch. I am afraid to do that, since I know that will end the question. I'll either go the route of faith, no holding back - or I'll lose that option forever. This is a variation on Shrodinger's cat. I'm not ready to open the box and see if the cat is dead or not.

 

It is both : alive then dead.

As it died its spirit went to the light.

The light revealed when the box was opened.

[Starjumper]

On 11/8/2017 at 9:35 AM, SeekerOfHealing said:

What you described here is jhana - not enlightenment. Even that jhana is generally the same as enlightenment (strong xin and rafination of it so that perception gone beyond 6th consciousness) but not really the same. it's like bootleg enlightenment. you can see and understand what is it, but this is only the preview. permanent state of what you explained is enlightenment (perfection of xin). ...  blah blah blah, bs bs ... more foreign meanigless words used to make one seem intelligent.

 

It's always nice to hear from a great expert on these things.  You're lucky, I did you a special favor and went and looked up jhanas.  I see it's typical Buddhist stuff with some truth using lots of wordiness with some bullshit heaped on top to hide the truth.

 

I read this about the four jhanas and I see it is a fairly good description of the enlightenment experience, and I like the way they use the word rapture

 

Quote

 

The Rupa Jhānas

Main article: Rupajhana

There are four stages of deep collectedness which are called the Rupa Jhāna (Fine-material Jhāna). For each Jhāna are given a set of qualities which are present in that jhana:^[5]

1. First Jhāna — the five hindrances have completely disappeared and intense unified bliss remains. Only the subtlest of mental movement remains, perceivable in its absence by those who have entered the second jhāna. The ability to form unwholesome intentions ceases. The remaining qualities are: "directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention"
2. Second Jhāna — all mental movement utterly ceases. There is only bliss. The ability to form wholesome intentions ceases as well. The remaining qualities are: "internal assurance, rapture, pleasure, unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention"
3. Third Jhāna — one-half of bliss (joy) disappears. The remaining qualities are: "equanimity-pleasure, unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention"
4. Fourth Jhāna — The other half of bliss (happiness) disappears, leading to a state with neither pleasure nor pain, which the Buddha said is actually a subtle form of happiness (more sublime than pīti and sukha). The breath is said to cease temporarily in this state. The remaining qualities are: "a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness; unification of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity & attention".^[5] Traditionally, the fourth jhāna is seen as the beginning of attaining psychic powers (abhijñā).^{[citation needed][note 1]}

 

So this is what the enlightenment experience is basically like.  Except the Wikipedia article says this about it:

Quote

The Pāli canon describes eight progressive states of jhāna. Four are called meditations of form (rūpa jhāna), and four are formless meditations (arūpa jhāna).

 

Well maybe for some they can arrive at these feelings via meditation but in the enlightenment experience they happen all together, one followed immediately by the next, in a smooth progression, with the whole thing taking several days.  Now it could be that some meditators can achieve  these states by meditating on them but that seems dumb to me, the enlightenment experience  can happen at any time, whether on is meditating at that moment or not; and in my meditations there were no such silly goals or objects of meditation, we simple meditated as no thinking, no mind, and simply focussed on the energy task at hand, if there was one, the 'energy task' being dictated by the particular posture being used at the moment.  Only poor suffering Buddhists would actually focus on those states as a meditation, which is blatantly a type of desire.

 

So why do I say it is an enlightenment experience?  Well for one things others have described similar experiences and termed them to be enlightenment, and another is that it ends up making a person a Boddhisattva, which even the Buddhists recognize as an enlightened state, which it is, and it's a pretty stupid state too.  What's even more stupid is Eeyore saying it's not enlightenment.  They say Buddha was 'fully' enlightened, whatever that is supposed to mean.  OK, fine, one can go further, and will, because the experience ignites certain unavoidable and powerful alchemical changes in a person which results in what are sometimes pathetically called 'realizations'  All I know from experience is that my teacher was so psychic that he was omniscient, and he became a high level immortal when he died.  The great expert, Eeyore, must know how immortals sometimes talk to bozos: "HAHAHAHA,  FU, HAHAHAHA, I COULD SQUASH YOU LIKE A BUG, HAHAHAHA!"    You may have seen a representation of this attitude in the cinema.

 

I read about a Hindu yogi who seemed to be in a permanent state of rapture, with his beautific smile and non thoughts.  You could take him to a street corner in the city and put his right arm up in the air and leave him there.  An hour later you could come back and he would still be standing on the corner with his arm up in the air and an idiotic grin on his face.  Personally I think it's better to get beyond that and be able to wipe your own butt.

 

Next we have this gem:

 

On 11/8/2017 at 9:35 AM, SeekerOfHealing said:

Most of your guys think can go into unhuman transformation just reading about self, non-self and stuff like this. It's pathetic. It will not bring anything. 

 

I suppose Eeyore is referring to me with this since he was quoting me, but here the great expert appears to be confused again.  I didn't dream up or wish or even believe for a long time what I was, it took some convincing by my guardian, an ancient and very powerful dragon, who I call by the nickname Impending Death, who snuffed the most powerful Kahuna in the Pacific who was screwing with me and who challenged him.  I also think people who read about and use the world 'self','true self', 'non self' in spiritual discussions are bozos.  HAHAHAHA

 

Thanks for the enterntainment.

 

Eeyore, if you are looking for more to crap on please visit my dragon thread, thank you.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Starjumper
additions, corrections, clarifications

[cold]

I suspect there was or will be a rupture or two on the road to rapture

[Gunther]

Is enlightenment desirable?

Well, the answer must be NO

As common sense and a bit of life experience tells us ALL desires lead ultimately to frustration.

The only way is to start with enlightenment as a fact. It's inborn and can't be helped. Then work your way backwards so to speak and drop everything that is at odds with that natural state.

[cold]

Desiring to return to a natural state I dwell in frustration that "enlightenment as a fact. It's inborn and can't be helped."

I am doing a fine job of working backwards though.

[Lost in Translation]

10 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Is enlightenment desirable?

Well, the answer must be NO

As common sense and a bit of life experience tells us ALL desires lead ultimately to frustration.

The only way is to start with enlightenment as a fact. It's inborn and can't be helped. Then work your way backwards so to speak and drop everything that is at odds with that natural state.

 

Seeker: "I desire to lose all desire."

Enlightened One: "Good luck with that!"

 

[Lost in Translation]

It seems to me that the path to enlightenment starts with realizing that there is no such thing as enlightenment. You are alive, now. You have pain and pleasure, now. Worrying about past mistakes or yearning for future achievements is futile. When the future arrives it will be now. Always now.

 

Mathilda: Is life always like this or only when you're a kid.

Leon: Always like this.

 

 

[Gunther]

22 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

It seems to me that the path to enlightenment starts with realizing that there is no such thing as enlightenment. You are alive, now. You have pain and pleasure, now. Worrying about past mistakes or yearning for future achievements is futile. When the future arrives it will be now. Always now.

 

Mathilda: Is life always like this or only when you're a kid.

Leon: Always like this.

 

 

It's like this very moment we are free.

If you suffer the consequences of the past, that's the pay back. You are even, all paid, free.

If you enjoy the fruits of the past you consume the merit. Again all level, you are free. So karma, cause and effect is an idea only when you string together the successive moments into a timeline.(in your mind)

Edited November 9, 2017 by Gunther

[C T]

35 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

It seems to me that the path to enlightenment starts with realizing that there is no such thing as enlightenment. You are alive, now. You have pain and pleasure, now. Worrying about past mistakes or yearning for future achievements is futile. When the future arrives it will be now. Always now.

 

Mathilda: Is life always like this or only when you're a kid.

Leon: Always like this.

 

 

 

even now is an illusion, according to some... 

 

 

[Gunther]

10 minutes ago, C T said:

 

even now is an illusion, according to some... 

 

 

So something must be real to contrast with.😀

And the other way round. Without illusion no reality😀

[cold]

is it live (life)

or is it  memorex

[Marblehead]

It's spandex.

 

[Lost in Translation]

42 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

It's spandex.

 

 

Formerly

 

Student: "Master, is enlightenment really desirable?"

Master: "Mu."

 

Presently

 

Student: "Master, is enlightenment really desirable?"

Master: "Spandex."

[wstein]

8 hours ago, C T said:

even now is an illusion, according to some...

Correct (well the illusion of correct anyway).

[wstein]

8 hours ago, Gunther said:

So something must be real to contrast with.😀

Dualistic fallacy.

 

8 hours ago, Gunther said:

And the other way round. Without illusion no reality😀

 

Yes

[子泰]

If someone studies the topic of enlightenment and decides that it's a worthwhile pursuit, then of course it's desirable to them. If someone studies it and thinks it is BS, then they would just ignore it. On the topic of the former, I think everyone aims for enlightenment for different reasons. Personally, I just wanted enlightenment to help me with my troubles. 

 

That being said, I've achieved neither goals 

[Gunther]

4 hours ago, wstein said:

Dualistic fallacy.

 

 

Yes

So the fallacy is correct and the illusion is real?

Does it matter? Just labels.

Things/actions have consequences, effects. And we all know where it's going 😀even if we pretend otherwise

[Gunther]

3 hours ago, 子泰 said:

If someone studies the topic of enlightenment and decides that it's a worthwhile pursuit, then of course it's desirable to them. If someone studies it and thinks it is BS, then they would just ignore it. On the topic of the former, I think everyone aims for enlightenment for different reasons. Personally, I just wanted enlightenment to help me with my troubles. 

 

That being said, I've achieved neither goals 

Agree, enlightenment is the happiness independent of outer circumstance.

Once you realise that it's not the object of desire (new car, house, girl/boyfriend) that makes you happy, but the momentary feeling of desirelessness when you get what you want it's a great realisation. And what a laugh at the simplicity. What could be easier than sit down, relax, entertain/pursue no desire and be happy. It's called cutting the root of desire

 

[C T]

3 minutes ago, Gunther said:

 

Things/actions have consequences, effects. 

 

Only seemingly. Seeing only effects is like having jaundiced vision, or mistaking that a diseased tree can be cured by only trimming the branches. In uprooting a tree, trimming off the branches first might be seen as a waste of effort. Likewise, it is said that to eradicate the karma of a diseased tree the swiftest means is always to sever the roots. 

 

For the reconciliation of fragmented thinking, it is crucial to be aware that effects, in actuality, contain seeds of both the potential for liberation or a continuity in producing a repeat of the same effects... where dualistic view persists, then its the almost always the latter, sustained by the force of its own momentum, to continue producing the same habitually similar patterns . For example, rising anger can simultaneously contain the potential for further aggression and results thereof, or the concentrated energy that occurs in that moment can be used as a cause for liberation to occur instantaneously by cutting through and transforming that particular energy into its enlightening equivalent. The same applies to all other emotional arisings. 

[Gunther]

2 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Only seemingly. Seeing only effects is like having jaundiced vision, or mistaking that a diseased tree can be cured by only trimming the branches. In uprooting a tree, trimming off the branches first might be seen as a waste of effort. Likewise, it is said that to eradicate the karma of a diseased tree the swiftest means is always to sever the roots. 

 

For the reconciliation of fragmented thinking, it is crucial to be aware that effects, in actuality, contain seeds of both the potential for liberation or a continuity in producing a repeat of the same effects... where dualistic view persists, then its the almost always the latter, sustained by the force of its own momentum, to continue producing the same habitually similar patterns . For example, rising anger can simultaneously contain the potential for further aggression and results thereof, or the concentrated energy that occurs in that moment can be used as a cause for liberation to occur instantaneously by cutting through and transforming that particular energy into its enlightening equivalent. The same applies to all other emotional arisings. 

Oh yes, that's called alchemy😀