Virtue is...

[Unconditioned]

To answer the original question:

 

honesty

[thelerner]

There's a long list of virtue a man should attain..kindness, humility, reason, empathy..what everyone else has said.

 

But in conflict..if you're not being physically threatened..I think the wise man states his truth and walks away. That is a hard virtue cause we want to be right, and clever, and macho and meet all blows (real or imagined) tit for tat. I'm working on it, slowly, just a few more years to go.

 

 

Michael

[mat black]

just a couple more ideas of taoist (human) virtue

 

- not to slander others

 

- to not cause deliberate contention and conflict with others

 

* as unconditioned said, honesty, I'd take it as honesty to others (eg, not to speak with a forked tounge) and to ones self, eg, honest introspection in order to identify and correct our faults

* to harmonise and balance ones self and hence by emanation, harmonise situations?

* to know when to proceed and when to retreat from any situation (I like Michaels example of not demanding to be right or 'win' an argument)

* to be accomodating (I notice stigweard is so good at this, eg: welcomming new members, and offering balanced perspectives on things)

* to accord with people and situations based on greatest benefit for all

* avoid extremes

* to cultivate wisdom

* be kind, be kind, be kind

Edited March 17, 2009 by mat black

[Stigweard]

Edited March 18, 2009 by Stigweard

[Stigweard]

The Significance of Virtue

 

The Daoist concept of 'Virtue'1 is rich in meaning. Generally speaking, Virtue and Dao are reciprocal concepts. In the fifty-first chapter of the Laozi, it is said that "Dao begets all things, and Virtue fosters them." Dao is the fundamental origin of all beings, while Virtue is the reflection of Dao in all beings. Dao is formless and imageless; Virtue, as the manifestation of Dao in all concrete things, is also formless. Therefore Daoists often refer to Dao and Virtue as a single concept, and consider them to be absolutely void and still, and the ultimate abstruse Ancestor of all beings.

 

Virtue is the attainment of Dao

 

As the reflection of Dao in all beings, Virtue can be said to be each concrete being's attainment of Dao. In the Pivotal Meaning of the Daoist Doctrine2 by Meng Anpai of the Tang dynasty, it is said that Virtue is attainment, and is the opposite of loss of Dao. For this reason, Virtue and the sometimes-used concept of 'Dao-Nature'3 are identical. Dao is omnipresent and all creatures have Dao-Nature. In the Book of Master Zhuang4, it is said that Dao is 'omnipresent', and can be found in mole crickets and ants, in bricks and tiles, in stools and urine. Whether it be the most spiritual of men or the most debased of things, everything has Dao. In the Book of Western Ascension5, it is said that "Dao is not only in me; all beings have it". This Dao-Nature reflected by all beings is Virtue.

 

Virtue is the effect of Dao

 

Virtue is the reflection of Dao, and Dao is the root of Virtue. From this perspective, we can say that the effect of Dao on the nurturing and ordering of all beings is played out through Virtue. Dao is Emptiness6 and governs Non-Being7, while Virtue exists in all concrete things and governs Being8. Of course, we are here not separating Dao and Virtue into two separate things, but merely reflecting on different situations and functions. Fundamentally speaking, Virtue and Dao are but two aspects of a single category. Hence, the first scroll of the Pivotal Meaning of the Daoist Doctrine quotes Master Xuanqing as saying that "Dao and Virtue are two significances of a single reality. They are one but not one, two but not two." Looking at their functions and effects, they are different and thus two, but as different expressions of the same reality, they are not two. In the same way, they are both one, but owing to their different functions, they are not one.

 

 

Zhongyu, Liu. Translator: David Palmer. Taoist Culture and Information Centre. Accessed 17 March 2009. <http://eng.taoism.org.hk/daoist-beliefs/gr...o/pg2-1-2-1.htm>

[Stigweard]

A small bump for virtue...

 

[Ben D]

There is nuance when it comes to virtue, for there is superior virtue and inferior virtue. Superior virtue is a state of virtue that is consciously unaware of acting virtuously, whereas inferior virtue makes it a practice of being seen to be virtuous.

 

This is not a judgement, but rather an observation of the unfolding nature of virtue. One who is of the superior virtue nature, began by practicing inferior virtue.

[mat black]

There is nuance when it comes to virtue, for there is superior virtue and inferior virtue. Superior virtue is a state of virtue that is consciously unaware of acting virtuously, whereas inferior virtue makes it a practice of being seen to be virtuous.

 

This is not a judgement, but rather an observation of the unfolding nature of virtue. One who is of the superior virtue nature, began by practicing inferior virtue.

Agree.

[Stigweard]

Another quiet bump for virtue

[Marblehead]

Cheezze!!! Now I'm going to have to read this entire thread.

 

Be well!

[Marblehead]

[Ya Mu]

In the practice of High Level Chi Kung Healing one can NOT gain in ability past a certain point without the practice of Virtue.

Master Wang's 3 things needed in order to progress:

1) Practice Stillness-Movement

2) Be a Good & Moral Person

3) Stay Calm

 

I like what Ben D said. Eventually, through the practice of attempting virtue the real virtue becomes (IS). Then all decisions are made without thinking about them and are virtuous acts or acts which gain virtue. Since everyone is not familiar with Taoist concepts I often talk about this as "Good Deed's Power" in which Power/Knowledge/Wisdom can be gained through Good Deed's Acts. Further explanation reveals that these "Good Deed's Acts" are not from a conventional moral definition but acts derived from tuning in to innate intuitive wisdom through the act of raising the energy body vibration rate and making the conscious choice of following the path.

[Stigweard]

Stigweard, you have gained my sincerist respect (as have others). (But I still reserve the right to disagree with you if I feel the need. Hehehe)

 

I wouldn't have it any other way my friend.

 

Blessings

[thelerner]

Wanting drama tends to hazardous to my virtue. When things are quiet and nice, I'll often grab a stick and start poking things around me just to see how they'll react.

 

 

Michael

[Marblehead]

Wanting drama tends to hazardous to my virtue. When things are quiet and nice, I'll often grab a stick and start poking things around me just to see how they'll react.

Michael

 

Hehehe. You wouldn't last very long around me. I poke back.

 

Yes, indeed, we need learn how to make benefit during our times of peace (nice) and quiet.

 

Be well!

[thelerner]

I'll try you Marblehead you.

 

[Marblehead]

 

Be well!

[Marblehead]

Can we say that non-contentiousness is a virtue?

 

Lao Tzu said (Chapter 22, John C. H. Wu translation):

 

Therefore, the Sage embraces the One,

And becomes a Pattern to all under Heaven.

He does not make a show of himself,

Hence he shines;

Does not justify himself,

Hence he becomes known;

Does not boast of his ability,

Hence he gets his credit;

Does not brandish his success,

Hence he endures;

Does not compete with anyone,

Hence no one can compete with him.

Indeed, the ancient saying: "Bend and you will remain

whole" is no idle word.

 

 

Be well!

[snowdiva]

So, what happens when a taoist is the opposite? Is there "consequence" when a taoist intentionally dissembles, cheats, is discourteous, and generally exhibits behaviours contrary to taoist practice?

[Marblehead]

So, what happens when a taoist is the opposite? Is there "consequence" when a taoist intentionally dissembles, cheats, is discourteous, and generally exhibits behaviours contrary to taoist practice?

 

There are indeed consequences. We loose our inner harmony, peace and contentment. We chastise ourself for straying from the path. But then, there are other times when the normally unacceptable behavior is not in conflict if the actions were for a good purpose.

 

That's the thing about 'wu wei' and 'wei wu wei'. There is a time for action and there is a time for non-action. In this regard timing is of utmost importance. As long as the reaction was a result of a cause that required a reaction one still has not violated the concept of 'wu wei' and one would most likely still remain at peace with their Self.

 

A gross example of this would be s situation where a man was attacking a young girl and the man needed to be stopped. The offending man resisted attempts at causing him to stop, turned his aggression one the person who was trying to stop the aggression and the offender of the young girl was killed in the process. Yes, the killing was bad but it was the the result of what needed to be done. No conflict here.

 

Happy Trails!

[Wayfarer64]

Being ready for anything.

 

Without expectations or preconceptions...open-hearted and open eyed for ones' own - (well-centered), open mind... to harmoniously live its' part in the dance of life....

[Stigweard]

[Marblehead]

Reminder to self

 

With the consideration of this from Chuang Tzu:

 

"... how are men's hearts to be kept good?"

 

"Be careful," replied Lao Tan, "not to interfere with the natural goodness of the heart of man. Man's heart may be forced down or stirred up. In each case the issue is fatal. By gentleness, the hardest heart may be softened. But try to cut and polish it, and it will glow like fire or freeze like ice. In the twinkling of an eye it will pass beyond the limits of the Four Seas. In repose, it is profoundly still; in motion, it flies up to the sky. Like an unruly horse, it cannot be held in check. Such is the human heart."

 

From Chapter 11 On Tolerance, translation by Lin Yutang

Edited October 3, 2009 by Marblehead

[Stigweard]

Let me draw analogies, once again, with the learning of Taiji which is appropriate I believe as Taiji is a fundamental tool in helping to gain a experiential understanding of everything the sages have passed down to us.

 

As alluded to in Laozi Ch55, a newborn babe is steeped in natural virtue and embodies perfect harmony. However, through socialization, experiential trauma, and the fixations of behavioral patterns, this virtue is distorted away from its original purity.

 

These distortions will manifest as calcifications both in the mind and in the body. It is the over-association with or predominance of these calcifications that will designate an individual as not living in accordance with their true nature, or De. They will be neither whole nor pure because they have segmented their essential nature into the "features" of their conditioned personality. Furthermore, their vitality will be incomplete because it is through these calcified features that a] our vitality will be stagnated and "leaked" and b] misfortunes will arise as a result of inappropriate behavior.

 

So in my learning and study, the Way of Tao is the process of "dissolving" these calcifications and reintegrating one's energy and vitality "back" into the original purity of a Laozi's newborn babe or Chuangzi's newborn calf.

 

To link this then to Taiji - when new students enter my class they first come with all their conditioned calcifications. They are stiff both in their body and in their mind. My "job" is to help them bring themselves back together. Through practicing endless Song exercises, Zhan Zhuang, Tui shou and the form, little by little the student will start to dissolve their artificial complexes of mind and body.

 

Eventually, after much more work plus the practice of Neidan etc, the student will bring their being back into it's original purity and thus will embody their integral nature, De, virtue.

[Marblehead]

Yes Stig,

 

That is exactly the process.

 

So let us return to the original reason that you posted the repeat of your "Virtue is Tolerance", shall we?

 

You posted it because you felt that you were not being, or someone else was not being adequately tolerant.

 

So let's imagine that you are this new-born babe. You are sucking on your mom's tit, taking pleasure in the warmth of the nourishing milk of life.

 

Then suddenly someone rings the doorbell and you mom removes the tit before you have had you fill so that she can cover herself and go see who is at the door.

 

The tit removal was intolerable by you because you were not yet satisfied and at peace with the world. You started raising hell! Crying and flinging your arms and legs.

 

This is your natural essence.

 

So I suggest that as we grow up and we express our emotions concerning some event that prevents us from becoming satisfied and at peace with the world it is totally natural to express our emotions and protest the 'intolerant' behavior of those who are causing us discontent.

 

There are some things in life that I believe we simply should not tolerate. The world should not have tolerated Hitler. But it did for many years. The more you let some others destroy your peace with the world the more they will try to take advantage of you tolerance.

 

Moderation is key. Even regarding tolerance.

 

Happy Trails!