Virtue is...

[VeeCee]

I think we can pretty much take Steve at his word by the end of this sentence. And he seems to have conveniently vanished do to it.

 

Buddy - can you say curmudgeon?

[Buddy]

I'll cop to curmudgeon. BTW my daughter graduated fro Pittsburgh CAPA four years ago.

 

I'm not much for -ists but I think one should strive for wu wei and tzu ran.

[VeeCee]

I'll cop to curmudgeon. BTW my daughter graduated fro Pittsburgh CAPA four years ago.

 

Congrats! That is an accomplishment!

[Buddy]

Thank you. This it's the Rhode Island School of Design.

[VeeCee]

Thank you. This it's the Rhode Island School of Design.

 

Proud papa!

[Stigweard]

Integrity

 

We are born whole and untouched and through our passage of becoming socially conditioned we become diminished. Either forcibly or voluntarily, parts of our original self are lost, some are distorted or some parts are locked away and forgotten.

 

In our development toward wholeness and completeness we bring ourselves back to the naturally perfect condition of being untouched, undiminished, with uncorrupted virtue. Thus Tao can also be known as the Integral Path of Universal Wholeness.

[dao zhen]

 

I couldn't leave him, so for five-and-a-half hours I drove behind him,

watching my father go through this agony for a stupid lie that I uttered.

 

I decided then and there that I was never going to lie again. I often

think about that episode and wonder, if he had punished me the way we

punish our children, whether I would have learned a lesson at all. I

don't think so.

 

I would have suffered the punishment and gone on doing the same thing.

But this single non-violent action was so powerful that it is still as

if it happened yesterday.

 

That is the power of non-violence.

 

by Dr. Arun Gandhi, grandson of Mahatma Gandhi

 

 

Thank you so much for this story.

 

It touched me.

 

Very beautiful.

[Stigweard]

[Stigweard]

Enrich Your Life with Virtue

 

What is well built will not collapse.

What is well-embraced will not be lost.

Build your virtue strongly and embrace it,

and you will be long remembered

for your virtuous being.

Cultivate your virtue with yourself,

and you will become really virtuous.

Cultivate your virtue with your family,

and your virtue will extend.

Cultivate your virtue with people

in your surroundings,

and your virtue will grow.

Cultivate your virtue with your nation,

and your virtue will become abundant.

Cultivate your virtue with the world,

and your virtue will become universal.

You know the future of an individual

by his virtue.

You know the future of a family

by its virtue.

You know the future of a community

by its virtue.

You know the future of a nation

by its virtue.

You know the future of the world

by its virtue.

From knowing the virtue of people and the world,

you know the future.

Tao The Ching, Chapter 5

[Stigweard]

[Patrick Brown]

To never seek to be ahead of anybody is the greatest virtue. Thus becoming servants of each other we yield just fruits. Ever returning the valley spirit never dies for it is the flow and therefore beyond the realms of duality.

 

[idquest]

Stigweard,

 

Thank you for making the list of virtues so whole/complete.

 

This is where I become confused. So far, all listed virtues represent what we could call "good deeds/qualities". And that feels right.

 

But at the same time, the Tao is supposed to be balanced, non-dualistic by nature. I translate that as "no good no bad".

 

When the elements (tsunami, floods) kill people, it is not because they are bad, this is just the way of nature.

 

My question is: when we try to cultivate virtures, don't we break the balance, make things more polarized?

[phore]

Cultivate love. when you have love the morals come naturally. The moral codes become empty and actually detrimental when there is no love.

 

If you have love on the inside that is the effect you will have on the world.

 

The bad is not really bad. It is an illusion. It allows us to know love, which is the source of everything.

 

Love is the way.

[Wuji108]

This is a great discussion...

 

 

I have been taught that the practice of Virtue is closely tied to the Three Treasures of the Tao:

 

Mercy,

Conscience, and

Forgiveness

 

as applied first to ourselves and then to others.

 

They are neither moralistic nor yin/yang - they are more about the quality of our spirit and our ability to not judge good/bad. Especially as relates to ourselves - the hardest is always to forgive ourselves, to let the mind and emotions become still and undisturbed by guilt and unresolved conflicts. When we don't forgive we are hurting ourselves. When we forgive we enhance our ability to be still.

[innerspace_cadet]

My take on "virtue" in Taoism is that you must first purify your innermost being, and your deeds will naturally follow suit. But that entails meditation, which in turn is supported by following ethics. The ethical rules that support a meditation practice are like training wheels, so to speak. You won't need them after a while because you will simply embody them.

[mbanu]

A Taoist shouldn't have any virtues.

 

Te as virtue is a bit misleading. It means virtue as in "by virtue of". Te is the manifestation of a thing's original nature. When a thing is in accordance with Tao, Te is the natural consequence. Dogs bark by virtue of their being dogs. One could say it is a part of their Te. However, to transform barking into one of the Canine Virtues would be a mistake.

[Stigweard]

Stigweard,

 

Thank you for making the list of virtues so whole/complete.

 

This is where I become confused. So far, all listed virtues represent what we could call "good deeds/qualities". And that feels right.

 

But at the same time, the Tao is supposed to be balanced, non-dualistic by nature. I translate that as "no good no bad".

 

When the elements (tsunami, floods) kill people, it is not because they are bad, this is just the way of nature.

 

My question is: when we try to cultivate virtures, don't we break the balance, make things more polarized?

 

An excellent question idquest. There are a few points to consider here.

 

At the root of your question is the quandary of whether, as Taoists, we should have a goal or an 'ideal state of beingness'. For myself personally that state is Teh, virtue, true nature. Virtue should not necessarilly be seen as an verb, i.e. something we do, but rather a noun, something we are.

 

So if Tao is 'the way of nature', what is the way of our own personal nature? How would we be if we were expressing the fullness of our own true nature?

 

My answer again is Teh, virtue.

 

Virtue should not be considered as an artificial system of morals or ethics. It is the spontaneous expression of one's personality when one is living true to one's nature. It is the healthy emanation of a wholesome being.

 

However, a symptomatic outcome of our society is that very few of us are living anywhere close to our own true nature ... we have become denatured by the contrivances of our culture.

 

So what are we to do?

 

It is to this last question that the Taoist teachings respond.

 

Classics like the Tao Teh Ching and authenic cultivation practices like Taijiquan are the virtuous expression of the ancient sages. They serve both as a mirror, revealing to us the unnecessary artifices of our own minds, and as a guide, helping us make the necessary corrections, helping us reattune with our own true nature.

 

My illumination of wholesome virtues in this thread is my own personal practice aspiring to the same purpose.

 

Rediscovering virtue/true nature is, perhaps literally, like someone rediscovering Taiji movement. At first we are all tense and rigid with the artificialness of our conditioned state. Then under the guidance of a good teacher we learn the external forms and, after much practice, we work further and further into the core. After much more practice we may eventually rediscover Taiji ... virtue ... true nature.

 

In answer directly to your question: "When we try to cultivate virtues, don't we break the balance, make things more polarized?"

 

Individual virtues are like the individual movements in the Taijiquan form, these movements are the visible expression of Taiji, the essence. Instead of 'cultivating virtues' you should focus on cultivating or achieving your unified personal nature, your essence. Wholesome virtues will be the natural expression of this attainment.

 

However, just like Taiji, sometimes we have to 'fake it until we make it'. What I mean by this is that through diligent study and practice of the individual movements we hope to gain insight into the essence of Taiji. Just so, by diligently and consciously practicing individual virtues we can gain insight into our true nature.

 

Once Taiji is embodied individual movements become Wu Wei, 'doing without conscious effort'; once true nature is embodied individual virtues also become Wu Wei.

 

It is polarised thinking to believe that we have to have 'equal share' of 'good' and 'bad' virtues. If this was the case then we should be also aspiring to cultivate self-denial, vengefulness, stupidity, intolerance, ignorance, jealousy, anger etc. etc.

 

In my personal view positive, life-enhancing virtues are the natural expression of a balanced, harmonious, uplifted soul ... a soul attuned to Tao ... whilst destructive, life-destroying personality attributes are the symptoms of a discordant, suppressed, degraded soul.

 

As a Taoist my study and efforts are focused toward enhancing the virtues of health, harmony, and happiness within myself and within my sphere of influence. Through tolerance and compassion I understand and accept that there are people in the world excelling themselves in the degradation of their own souls and of the world around them. My hope is that I can help one or two change the course of their lives to help create a little more harmony and wholesomeness in the world.

 

My hope is that you can also do the same.

[mat black]

Nice piece Stig, nice, thanks for sharing your sincere motives.

 

On the topic of practice/cultivation........

However, just like Taiji, sometimes we have to 'fake it until we make it'. What I mean by this is that through diligent study and practice of the individual movements we hope to gain insight into the essence of Taiji. Just so, by diligently and consciously practicing individual virtues we can gain insight into our true nature.

Yep.

This is why there is a need /purpose for cultivation, until there is no longer a trace of ignorance/affliction/defilement within us.

Then virtue becomes a spontaneous expression......actually, maybe we could say spontaneous 'emanation' from within our inherent nature toward all without discrimination. In the mean time, any act of kindness or such that comes from our effort, can and will resonate with and awaken the 'natural' virtue within us.

So in this regard, effort is very good.

(my take on it anyway )

 

 

My hope is that I can help one or two change the course of their lives to help create a little more harmony and wholesomeness in the world.

My hope is that you can also do the same.

Respect.

[Stigweard]

[.broken.]

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Idleness

[gossamer]

Dear Stigweard,

 

I know that I'm coming in late on this thread, but I've been on Taoist/Daoist forums on and off for years now, and this is perhaps the best discussion of Virtue ('te' or 'de'), that I've ever read.

 

I've valued everyone's point of view here, but I must say Stig, that you seem to have learned from Master Ni, how to become a true Taoist.

 

I can feel Dao in your words, and in your spirit that you relate to other people with.

 

I'm truly not trying to stroke your ego here either, I intend to go and copy this whole four pages of dialog about Virtue, and save it as 'a document'.

 

And I really enjoyed the story by Gandhi's grandson as well!

 

So well told, and it shows how to deal with error in a truly Compassionate but firm, way.

 

Right on, say I!!

 

Thank you everyone for your input here, I've REALLY enjoyed this thread!

 

Peace to you all, gossamer

 

 

 

 

An excellent question idquest. There are a few points to consider here.

 

At the root of your question is the quandary of whether, as Taoists, we should have a goal or an 'ideal state of beingness'. For myself personally that state is Teh, virtue, true nature. Virtue should not necessarilly be seen as an verb, i.e. something we do, but rather a noun, something we are.

 

So if Tao is 'the way of nature', what is the way of our own personal nature? How would we be if we were expressing the fullness of our own true nature?

 

My answer again is Teh, virtue.

 

Virtue should not be considered as an artificial system of morals or ethics. It is the spontaneous expression of one's personality when one is living true to one's nature. It is the healthy emanation of a wholesome being.

 

However, a symptomatic outcome of our society is that very few of us are living anywhere close to our own true nature ... we have become denatured by the contrivances of our culture.

 

So what are we to do?

 

It is to this last question that the Taoist teachings respond.

 

Classics like the Tao Teh Ching and authenic cultivation practices like Taijiquan are the virtuous expression of the ancient sages. They serve both as a mirror, revealing to us the unnecessary artifices of our own minds, and as a guide, helping us make the necessary corrections, helping us reattune with our own true nature.

 

My illumination of wholesome virtues in this thread is my own personal practice aspiring to the same purpose.

 

Rediscovering virtue/true nature is, perhaps literally, like someone rediscovering Taiji movement. At first we are all tense and rigid with the artificialness of our conditioned state. Then under the guidance of a good teacher we learn the external forms and, after much practice, we work further and further into the core. After much more practice we may eventually rediscover Taiji ... virtue ... true nature.

 

In answer directly to your question: "When we try to cultivate virtues, don't we break the balance, make things more polarized?"

 

Individual virtues are like the individual movements in the Taijiquan form, these movements are the visible expression of Taiji, the essence. Instead of 'cultivating virtues' you should focus on cultivating or achieving your unified personal nature, your essence. Wholesome virtues will be the natural expression of this attainment.

 

However, just like Taiji, sometimes we have to 'fake it until we make it'. What I mean by this is that through diligent study and practice of the individual movements we hope to gain insight into the essence of Taiji. Just so, by diligently and consciously practicing individual virtues we can gain insight into our true nature.

 

Once Taiji is embodied individual movements become Wu Wei, 'doing without conscious effort'; once true nature is embodied individual virtues also become Wu Wei.

 

It is polarised thinking to believe that we have to have 'equal share' of 'good' and 'bad' virtues. If this was the case then we should be also aspiring to cultivate self-denial, vengefulness, stupidity, intolerance, ignorance, jealousy, anger etc. etc.

 

In my personal view positive, life-enhancing virtues are the natural expression of a balanced, harmonious, uplifted soul ... a soul attuned to Tao ... whilst destructive, life-destroying personality attributes are the symptoms of a discordant, suppressed, degraded soul.

 

As a Taoist my study and efforts are focused toward enhancing the virtues of health, harmony, and happiness within myself and within my sphere of influence. Through tolerance and compassion I understand and accept that there are people in the world excelling themselves in the degradation of their own souls and of the world around them. My hope is that I can help one or two change the course of their lives to help create a little more harmony and wholesomeness in the world.

 

My hope is that you can also do the same.

[Stigweard]

_/\_

 

I appreciate your words my friend, I'm honoured that my commentry has provided a degree of benefit to you.

 

However, anyone reading my Cultivation Journal will know that I am just another "Joe the Plumber" fumbling his way along. My commentry of virtues here are merely part of my study and I am first to admit that often is the time that I fail to live by their standard.

 

Cheers and blessings.

 

Stig

 

Dear Stigweard,

 

I know that I'm coming in late on this thread, but I've been on Taoist/Daoist forums on and off for years now, and this is perhaps the best discussion of Virtue ('te' or 'de'), that I've ever read.

 

I've valued everyone's point of view here, but I must say Stig, that you seem to have learned from Master Ni, how to become a true Taoist.

 

I can feel Dao in your words, and in your spirit that you relate to other people with.

 

I'm truly not trying to stroke your ego here either, I intend to go and copy this whole four pages of dialog about Virtue, and save it as 'a document'.

 

And I really enjoyed the story by Gandhi's grandson as well!

 

So well told, and it shows how to deal with error in a truly Compassionate but firm, way.

 

Right on, say I!!

 

Thank you everyone for your input here, I've REALLY enjoyed this thread!

 

Peace to you all, gossamer

Edited November 3, 2008 by Stigweard

[Wayfarer64]

Yo Stig--

At least you plumb into depths of understanding ... rather than just snake around only to allow the s#!t to flow!

[Stigweard]

It is quite interesting that the last virtue talked about in this thread was Tolerance. It was almost like the good spirits decided to provide a living example to learn from.

 

Should we have limitless tolerance? Obviously our case in study revealed that at least I have my own limits on what I am willing to tolerate. If I was to fully embody tolerance with no limit at all then theoretically I would be prepared to tolerate someone cursing me, spitting in my face, rubbing faeces up my nose, and kicking my kids to the ground.

 

Obviously I would simply not allow this to happen.

 

I believe Ni, Hua-Ching has a thing or two to say about this:

 

Worldly culture does not lack or totally disrespect virtue, but the problem of taking a cultural approach is that teaching virtue tends to be interpreted as a single application of a single virtue without any association to other important virtues. To all the spokes, one must add the hub to make a wheel. Why am I saying that virtues are like the spokes of a wheel? Because for the wheel to roll evenly, all the spokes (all the virtues), need to be connected to a central hub.

 

In the case of virtue, that hub is prudence. Single virtues like obedience, compliance and loyalty, unless applied along with prudence, may easily be misplaced and cause more trouble than benefit. Loyalty, for example, is a good virtue that not only does good for others, but for yourself by making you centered and thus able to make correct choices. However, loyalty to a wrong cause is not virtuous.

 

p58, Ni, Hua-Ching, "Enrich Your Life With Virtue", Sevenstar Communications, LA, USA.

 

In our living example, TaoBums has a No-Insult policy, drawing a limit on what is to be tolerated because, as Sean pointed out, "forums without rules, without structure, without constraints, rapidly degenerate into chaos. And not the cool, fun kind of chaos."

 

An perfect example of how tolerance becomes appropriate through exercising prudence.