rain Posted November 9, 2008 (edited) Hi Stigweard I just started really reflecting on your report in your personal thread... and I have questions, would like to understand details better, want to learn. just saw a movie, it gave me a very welcomed opportuninty to reflect upon the difference btw forgiveness and tolerance. Te latter meakes me breathe. Reflect upon it. I literally opened up a whole new dimension and now I look forward to my first communion. I so agree with what has been said about finding precious things in threads by surprise find a clue in a movie, and a post at TB, a headline in the newspaper, a quick flashback to a certain situation earlier in life..suddenly your life is back on track again. Edited November 9, 2008 by rain Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted November 9, 2008 Hi Stigweard I just started really reflecting on your report in your personal thread... and I have questions, would like to understand details better, want to learn. just saw a movie, it gave me a very welcomed opportuninty to reflect upon the difference btw forgiveness and tolerance. Te latter meakes me breathe. Reflect upon it. I literally opened up a whole new dimension and now I look forward to my first communion. I so agree with what has been said about finding precious things in threads by surprise find a clue in a movie, and a post at TB, a headline in the newspaper, a quick flashback to a certain situation earlier in life..suddenly your life is back on track again. Sure Rain, I always welcome the opportunity to share with friends. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZenStatic Posted November 10, 2008 Should we have limitless tolerance? Obviously our case in study revealed that at least I have my own limits on what I am willing to tolerate. If I was to fully embody tolerance with no limit at all then theoretically I would be prepared to tolerate someone cursing me, spitting in my face, rubbing faeces up my nose, and kicking my kids to the ground. But would that really fall under tolerance? It is 1 thing to tolerate someones attitudes and speech, and entirely different to be completely non-defensive when real harm is happening. I know that I do my best to be tolerant, because people all think in different ways, but touch my kids, and I'll kill you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
picnic Posted November 11, 2008 Virtue is a poor translation of Te and is being discussed here by a fluke of language. If Te were better translated we would not be discussing virtue but patterns in nature. The virtue of a real person, they who live Tao without knowing it, is no deliberate virtue. Throw all your virtue away and act correctly, when you live correctly then that is your true virtue. Acting in a certain way by convention or such may help and hinder. True virtue will adjust to the need of the situation and shall thereby have no fixed name Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted November 11, 2008 Virtue is a poor translation of Te and is being discussed here by a fluke of language. If Te were better translated we would not be discussing virtue but patterns in nature. The virtue of a real person, they who live Tao without knowing it, is no deliberate virtue. Throw all your virtue away and act correctly, when you live correctly then that is your true virtue. Acting in a certain way by convention or such may help and hinder. True virtue will adjust to the need of the situation and shall thereby have no fixed name I agree with you in full _/\_ I will add though that your suggestion of "Throw all your virtue away and act correctly" can leave the seeker in the quandry of "OK, so what is 'correct' then?" Back in Post #67 I said: However, just like Taiji, sometimes we have to 'fake it until we make it'. What I mean by this is that through diligent study and practice of the individual movements we hope to gain insight into the essence of Taiji. Just so, by diligently and consciously practicing individual virtues we can gain insight into our true nature. Once Taiji is embodied individual movements become Wu Wei, 'doing without conscious effort'; once true nature is embodied individual virtues also become Wu Wei. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
picnic Posted November 11, 2008 I will add though that your suggestion of "Throw all your virtue away and act correctly" can leave the seeker in the quandry of "OK, so what is 'correct' then?" ah ha then we have to ask the small child. My small child test is how I would have nations governed or solve any tricky issues. Situation: -Any situation e.g. is this right or fair? Solution: -Ask the 4 year old child. Their word is law. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted November 18, 2008 You will probably read the below and say: "Yes Stigweard, I could have told you this all before." And in fact one of you already has. Let me explain... I love it when I discover practical application of Taoist principles that reveal the potency and fortuity of this way of living. For instance, many years have I struggled with the notion of selfless service. I rebelled against the suggestion that by putting myself last I was gaining some sort of 'spiritual profit'. I felt that the act of selfless service was a path of losing in order to gain; that I had to 'suffer' so that others could prosper. Recently however I have had the great fortune of discovering how wrong I have been. It is in my experience that insights happen through a process of incremental, sometimes seemlingly disconnected, realisations with a final breakthrough that makes you go, "Oh my God! How have I not seen this before?" But once you have had that insight you can never go back to your old way of thinking. Your life has been transformed forever. So let me tell you about the process that has brought me to this new way of thinking. I have been in the sales and marketing field for many years with admittedly only slightly better than average results. I could rattle off a thousand different marketing techniques and tell you the whole psychology of why people buy. So with all this knowledge why wasn't I brimming with sales results? Well to be brutally honest with you, it has because I have been too damn full of myself. And to my chagrin it took someone from a very conservative field to teach me what I had thought I already knew. I have recently been reading Dale Carnegie's book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People". I know I am stepping out on a limb when I say that this wonderful little book could also be called, "The Tao of Personal Relationships". I have long maintained and have often expounded long-windedly that rapport is key to success in sales , that people will only buy from you or act upon your ideas if and only if they truly like you. Knowing this I had set about trying to make myself as likeable as I could. I dressed well, groomed well, spoke well and generally went about becoming what I thought was a likeable fellow. No doubt you can probably see my error already. Sometimes I can be so thick. So with my own views firmly in place I finally decided to read Mr Carnegie's book saying to myself, "I already know this stuff so this should be a nice bit of revision for me." So I progress through the book covering things like: don't critcise, complain, or condemn; smile; never argue; show genuine appreciation; etc. But then comes the cruncher when he actually quotes the Tao teh Ching saying that interpersonal success will only come to someone who follows this guideline: Ch 66 How does the sea become the queen of all the rivers and streams? By lying lower than they do! Hence, it is the queen of all rivers and streams. One who humbles himself, therefore, can serve all people. By putting himself last, he comes to be their leader. Thus, when one of subtle virtue is set above people, they do not feel that he is their burden. And, when he stands in front of people, they do not feel that he is an obstruction to them. Therefore, the world follows one of subtle virtue joyfully, and never tires of doing so. He does not compete with anyone, thus he is above all competition. Mr Carnegie goes on to explain that "People are only interested in you in as much as you are interested in them." My great error was that I was totally focused on me ... on what I had to say and what I thought was interesting about me. But the truth I now see is that for people to be interested in what I have to say I have to first and foremost be interested in who they are and what they have to say. So I tried an experiment today. Usually I have around 12 or so people to my seminars on healthy sleep. Today though, possibly due to the rain, I only had one couple in attendance, Col and Jan. Now normally I would have greeted them and launched into my monologue of what our product is all about. Today though I thought I would try and implement some of the things I have just learned. So I deliberately said nothing about myself, my company, my product etc. and simply became genuinely interested in them. For an hour we talked about nothing other than Col and Jan's life, Col's experiences in the army, Jan's work in a bank, their children, etc. etc. It was only after an hour of this lovely conversation that the discussion seemed to naturally turn to the product I had on display. So I asked them what they would be intereted in. Well they admitted that they had only just bought a bed 6 months ago but they would be interested in our pillows because Jan wakes up with a terribly sore neck and sore shoulders. I simply showed them the unique features of our pillows, gave Jan an opportunity to try the bed for herself and then left them to talk about it all to their hearts content. Then without any suggestion on my behalf they agreed to buy a pillow for Jan ... and then they upsold themselves and bought a pillow for Col as well because they thought it would probably help with his snoring I let go of what I wanted, I let go of what I was interested in, I let go of the importance I had fixated on me and gave these two lovely people genuine, honest and devoted appreciation and interest. And in return for me giving them what they wanted they gave me what I wanted. Selfless service in action! And everybody won! The only thing I had 'lost' was my attachments to myself. Now like I said, you most probably knew this already, I certainly can't admit to being the brightest kid on the block. But I have to tell you, my mind is simply abuzz with this wonderful way of looking at things. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted December 31, 2008 I'm not so sure tolerance is always such a virtue. I hold opinions that are at odds with other's opinions. I do not tolerate intolerance for example... Nor do I put up with religious zealots who insist that evolution is only a theory and that the world has only existed for 5,000 years. In fact, my last post was a heart-felt castigation of Mak Tin Si who has become fascistic in his attempts to hijack this site. He has even gone so far as to accuse those who resent his unmitigated intrusions as "communists"- which is actually just silly... I do not sit by and let bullies have their way if I can try to stop them. So courage to face enemies is a virtue as well as open-mindedness, which is not the same as tolerance... patience is a virtue to be practiced while exchanging the various expressions of others and our own ways of thought and life etc... but if I'm attacked I do not tolerate the attacker's activities. Te has many facits- doing the right thing at the right time seems to be the Way in my view... and that may enclude a good swift kick from time to time! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stigweard Posted January 1, 2009 I'm not so sure tolerance is always such a virtue. I hold opinions that are at odds with other's opinions. I do not tolerate intolerance for example... Nor do I put up with religious zealots who insist that evolution is only a theory and that the world has only existed for 5,000 years. In fact, my last post was a heart-felt castigation of Mak Tin Si who has become fascistic in his attempts to hijack this site. He has even gone so far as to accuse those who resent his unmitigated intrusions as "communists"- which is actually just silly... I do not sit by and let bullies have their way if I can try to stop them. So courage to face enemies is a virtue as well as open-mindedness, which is not the same as tolerance... patience is a virtue to be practiced while exchanging the various expressions of others and our own ways of thought and life etc... but if I'm attacked I do not tolerate the attacker's activities. Te has many facits- doing the right thing at the right time seems to be the Way in my view... and that may enclude a good swift kick from time to time! It is as you say. Which is why virtues need to work integrally with other virtues, especially prudence or forethought. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mak_Tin_Si Posted March 10, 2009 virtue is another in taoism "DUCK" In Tao Te Ching , the first 2 word consist of TAO and TE (DUCK) already. As you can see, learning taoism first part is TAO and second is DUCK (TE). They blends together. linked. Virtue is trained from your actions at the beginning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spectrum Posted March 10, 2009 empathy and compassion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameron Posted March 10, 2009 Reminder to self Nice. I'll go with that. Appreciation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WhiteTiger Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) I do not sit by and let bullies have their way if I can try to stop them. So courage to face enemies is a virtue as well as open-mindedness, which is not the same as tolerance... patience is a virtue to be practiced while exchanging the various expressions of others and our own ways of thought and life etc... but if I'm attacked I do not tolerate the attacker's activities. Te has many facits- doing the right thing at the right time seems to be the Way in my view... and that may enclude a good swift kick from time to time! This is extremely interesting... Is it true if one has lost the courage to face enemies that are bullying, is virtue lost? Edited March 10, 2009 by WhiteTiger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted March 10, 2009 I miss picnic. Ok, here's my shot at it. Since you guys covered all the obvious stuff, I'll go for the obscure virtues: Impatience Foolhardiness Foolishness Stubbornness Adherence to formality Sense of humor Ok, I think this is good enough for now. I hope you like it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeutralWire Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) -- Edited March 10, 2009 by NeutralWire Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mak_Tin_Si Posted March 10, 2009 stillness is not a type of virtue. stillness do not mean not to move or be still. In taoism stillness mean your hard "melting outside and not melting inside". You can learn that in *Jong Ji* 外化內不化 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted March 11, 2009 This is extremely interesting... Is it true if one has lost the courage to face enemies that are bullying, is virtue lost? I doubt that we can say virtue is lost... It may not always be a question of courage as much as werewithall... It would be plain foolish to stand up to a bully only to become another victim. Discretion may be the better part of valor! That being said if there is a way to counter the perpitration of mayhem and rancor or bullying etc... I think the virtuos try to do so...Sometimes just walking away may be the best thing to do... This is why being in touch with the Tao of your own reality is so important in my world view... Any given instant of conflict can be changed into a moment of growth and enlightenment... - As I said above sometimes a good swift kick to the keester is an act of great kindness - if humility is learned from a sore butt! I guess for me virtue is knowing how to live in a troubling world with the heart of a warrior and the spiritual strength to perpitrate peace...But that's just me... for others there will be other virtues and weaknesses to deal with - we each have our baggage as well as our bags of tricks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mat black Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) Thanks Matt ... I thought this deserved to be here Edited March 17, 2009 by mat black Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
