Mair 12:6

[Marblehead]

Yao was inspecting Hua {{This may refer to the area around Mount Taihua in the province of Shensi.}} when the border warden of the place said to him, "Aha! a sage!  Allow me to ask blessings for the sage.  Long live the sage!"

"I decline," said Yao.

"May the sage become wealthy!"

"I decline," said Yao.

"May the sage have many sons!"

"I decline," said Yao.

"Longevity, wealth, and many sons," said the border warden, are what all men desire.  Why do you alone not desire them?"

"Many sons," said Yao, "bring many fears.  Wealth brings many affairs.  Longevity brings many disgraces.  These three blessings are of no use in nourishing virtue.  Therefore, I decline them."

"At first," said the border warden, "I thought you were a sage.

But now I see that you are a superior man.  In giving birth to the myriads of people, heaven is certain to assign them their duties.  If you were to have many sons, you would assign them their duties, so what is there to fear?  If you were wealthy, you could share with others, so what affairs would there be?"

The sage dwells like a quail
and is fed like a hatchling,
Moves like a bird through the air
and leaves no traces.
When the Way prevails under heaven,
He enjoys prosperity along with all things;
When the Way is absent under heaven,
He cultivates his virtue in retirement.
Tired of the world, after a thousand years
He leaves it and ascends among the immortals.
{{A technically more precise translation of hsien would be "transcendents."  They are immune to heat and cold, untouched by the elements, and can fly, mounting upward with a fluttering motion.  They dwell apart from the chaotic world of man, subsist on air and dew, are not anxious like ordinary people, and have the smooth skin and innocent faces of children.  The transcendents live an effortless existence that is best described as spontaneous.  They recall the ancient Indian ascetics and holy men known as rsi who possessed similar traits.  In Master Chuang's time, the transcendents practiced meditation and forgetting (see above), but later generations of Taoists tried to acquire these remarkable traits by various alchemical, sexual, and hygienic regimes.}}
He mounts on the white clouds
And arrives in the land of Deus.
The three tribulations never affect him;
His person is free from misfortune.

"So what disgrace would there be?"

As the border warden was leaving, Yao followed after him, saying, "May I ask about ...?"

"Away with you!" said the border warden.

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, Marblehead said:

If you were to have many sons, you would assign them their duties,

nepotism was in vogue then

[Stosh]

This passage appears to be delineating the conceptual difference between 'sages.

' Worldly smarts , of Conf, ,vs wisdom that Cz would condone. 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, Stosh said:

This passage appears to be delineating the conceptual difference between 'sages.

' Worldly smarts , of Conf, ,vs wisdom that Cz would condone. 

Agree.  It seems that the border Warden is the one with the wisdom of Confucius while the Sage has the wisdom of Chuang Tzu.  Ironically thought, at the end it has the Sage seeking Confucian wisdom.

 

But then, one can easily read this different than what I just presented.

 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Agree.  It seems that the border Warden is the one with the wisdom of Confucius while the Sage has the wisdom of Chuang Tzu.  Ironically thought, at the end it has the Sage seeking Confucian wisdom.

 

But then, one can easily read this different than what I just presented.

 

I didn't spot the irony , but I think its typical of the typical story structure to reinforce the point being made.. and so ,agree completely.

Cz didn't ever say Conf was stupid, and I think he in fact respected the smarts,, though in some ways I think,  he felt it fell short of what could be 

, maybe that's the big issue between them,n why Cz uses Conf as his foil. 

In fact.. I will take your point one step more and point out that the guy is a warden at border, of the summit ,, one step shy , and is looking for the blessings of the sage , but doesn't recognize him right in his face , because he thinks he has the correct answers already.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Yeah, a number of perspectives could be had concerning this section.

 

But really, just two perspectives of the workings of the Universe.

 

[Stosh]

13 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, a number of perspectives could be had concerning this section.

 

But really, just two perspectives of the workings of the Universe.

 

Whats another?

[Marblehead]

Challenge my brain, will you?   Hehehe.  It's still early in the morning and I haven't yet finished my second cup of coffee.

 

 

But anyhow,  let's see ...

 

How about the comparison between a Sage and a Superior Man as noted by the Border Warden?

 

The Superior Man would be the Confucian and the Sage would be the Taoist.

 

The Superior Man would view things from only his perspective but the Sage would view things from all perspectives.

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Challenge my brain, will you?   Hehehe.  It's still early in the morning and I haven't yet finished my second cup of coffee.

 

 

But anyhow,  let's see ...

 

How about the comparison between a Sage and a Superior Man as noted by the Border Warden?

 

The Superior Man would be the Confucian and the Sage would be the Taoist.

 

The Superior Man would view things from only his perspective but the Sage would view things from all perspectives.

 

When reading it , I thought the two terms were swapped. Do you agree that the warden is hoping for the blessings of whom he calls a 'Sage',

but is really expecting that the Sage will be he whom would be more accurately called the ' Superior man'  type guy.

Whereas Yao, is the actual sage of Cz , and so, is refuted by the warden as "just being ' a Superior ,,but regular guy ? 

So this is a 'comedy of errors' the names are flipped by the Warden as are his opinions.?

Have your coffee ..  

.. or vice versa, where it is the border warden who Is the sage , its hard to tell who made the long 'speech' 

But perhaps it doesnt matter. ( like a palindrome)

Edited October 24, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Yeah, there is a difference between a Superior Man and a Sage.  I can't take this any further as I would only be presenting my biased opinions.

 

 

[Stosh]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, there is a difference between a Superior Man and a Sage.  I can't take this any further as I would only be presenting my biased opinions.

 

 

Oh ! Sure! solicit biased opinions , then decline to do likewise . Now I see