Consciousness & Self Consciousness, Nature & the Dao

[thelerner]

Animals are conscious, but maybe not so self conscious. 

Humans are very self conscious. 

In Western theology God is conscious;

in Taoism is the Tao conscious or is more a set of rules?  

Is Nature conscious?   Or a set of systems governed by rules?

Edited October 26, 2017 by thelerner

[Lost in Translation]

Good questions!

 

23 minutes ago, thelerner said:

In Western theology God is conscious;

 

I think it worth noting that not only is God conscious, but conscious in a anthropomorphic sense. Is this human projection? I don't know. How do you separate the messenger from the message?

 

24 minutes ago, thelerner said:

in Taoism is the Tao conscious or is more a set of rules?  

 

If we remove anthropomorphism from the equation, what does conscious even mean at that scope of being? Is this like asking a bacterium to discuss Plato? Can a human even understand the question, much less the answer? Again, I don't know, but it's an interesting thought to examine.

[Marblehead]

Yes, good questions.  I am still open for changing my mind about this concept.

 

Presently, it is my understanding that it requires some kind of biological life in order to be conscious.  Plants are actually conscious in a certain way.

 

Self-conscious is more restricted.  Humans and a few other mammals can be defined as being self-conscious animals.  The mirror is of good use here.  When an animal looks into a mirror does it see itself or does it see another animal?

 

And then, if there is conscious life then it must be an attribute of Tao.  However, as Tao is not a thing, I doubt I could agree with a suggestion that Tao is self-conscious.

 

[dwai]

7 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, good questions.  I am still open for changing my mind about this concept.

 

Presently, it is my understanding that it requires some kind of biological life in order to be conscious.  Plants are actually conscious in a certain way.

 

Self-conscious is more restricted.  Humans and a few other mammals can be defined as being self-conscious animals.  The mirror is of good use here.  When an animal looks into a mirror does it see itself or does it see another animal?

 

And then, if there is conscious life then it must be an attribute of Tao.  However, as Tao is not a thing, I doubt I could agree with a suggestion that Tao is self-conscious.

 

Tao is Pure Awareness, so yes it is not a thing

[Stosh]

9 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, good questions.  I am still open for changing my mind about this concept.

 

Presently, it is my understanding that it requires some kind of biological life in order to be conscious.  Plants are actually conscious in a certain way.

 

Self-conscious is more restricted.  Humans and a few other mammals can be defined as being self-conscious animals.  The mirror is of good use here.  When an animal looks into a mirror does it see itself or does it see another animal?

 

And then, if there is conscious life then it must be an attribute of Tao.  However, as Tao is not a thing, I doubt I could agree with a suggestion that Tao is self-conscious.

 

I never really agreed with the mirror proof of animals not thinking they exist. 

My cat quickly gathers that a shadow is of her own making,

when she bats an object

she doesn't appear to think it moved on its own,

but if it did move on its own , she would jump. ( up , or at it) 

If she is against me on the couch , and I reach out and touch her before getting up, she is aware that I am aware of her, and stays in place. 

But if I go to get up without touching her , she looks to not get bumped or squashed , and hops out of the way. 

There's plenty of other things she does ,which to me seem , must indicate that she is aware that she exists , that she has effect, and that I am also aware of her. 

 

A person came over to me with their dog , I wasn't paying attention , when she mentioned the dog, I looked down and saw the dog ,( truly a Huge Giant headed pit bull.)

but the dog was just wanting acknowledgement , and  so was making the ' Hi pet me I am nice -face' , so I petted it ,

satisfied , the dog looked for the next thing to do. The dog wanted to relate , it didn't think I was inanimate.  

 

While there are mental leaps that some animals make , and others do not, such as , a dog will follow a pointing finger to find a snack , whereas the cat just manages to look both blank and confused. And I suspect understanding the effect of a mirror , when the data being presented is just So! much like another creature,  overwhelms what they innately understand. 

 

I think they have minds , and emotions ,but just cant do some of our tricks.