All things umami

[rainbowvein]

Vegan 'sushi', raw tuna substitute

 

Creative humans. Plant-based umami 'replacing' sea-sourced umami. 

 

[Gerard]

Konnichiwa,

 

Is this about lovely Japanese food?

 

Some very tasty recipes:

 

http://www.nhk.or.jp/dwc/cooking/

 

Yum!

[C T]

I always thought a large proportion of sea-sourced umami is derived from seaweed. Kombu, to be exact. Combined with shiitake, the flavour is almost similar to what is available when using bonito flakes. And significantly more economical too. 

[rainbowvein]

8 hours ago, Gerard said:

Konnichiwa,

 

Is this about lovely Japanese food?

 

Some very tasty recipes:

 

http://www.nhk.or.jp/dwc/cooking/

 

Yum!

 

 

Thanks for the recipes.

 

No, not specifically Japanese umami thread.

 

6 hours ago, C T said:

I always thought a large proportion of sea-sourced umami is derived from seaweed. Kombu, to be exact. Combined with shiitake, the flavour is almost similar to what is available when using bonito flakes. And significantly more economical too. 

 

Thanks for that info.

 

Yes! about the kombu (from wikipedia):

Umami was first scientifically identified in 1908 by Kikunae Ikeda, a professor of the Tokyo Imperial University. He found that glutamate was responsible for the palatability of the broth from kombu seaweed. He noticed that the taste of kombu dashi was distinct from sweet, sour, bitter, and salty and named it umami.

[liminal_luke]

A great website information with scientific information answering the question "what is umami?"  and a useful rundown of umami ingredients: http://www.umamiinfo.com/

[rainbowvein]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

A great website information with scientific information answering the question "what is umami?"  and a useful rundown of umami ingredients: http://www.umamiinfo.com/

 

Great site!

 

A list of umami rich foods at: http://www.umamiinfo.com/richfood/

[thelerner]

I've been throwing a little Fish sauce (from Trader Joe's) into many recipes (particularly stews), not to get it's flavor but to add to the umami.  I notice TJ's also sells a Umami Paste in a tube.  Which contains anchovies amongst other flavorings.  Haven't tried it yet. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by thelerner

[rainbowvein]

 

Pad thai = comfort food? Fish sauce+shrimp+cabbage+bamboo shoots+mushrooms+scallions+egg = umami!  

[Taomeow]

Most "umami" products are MSG-based.  Do read the fine print when you buy them.  

 

The Japanese chemist who coined the neologism (no, it's not a traditional thing and not a real word) actually invented and patented MSG, monosodium glutamate, as food additive, and the word (derived from the Japanese for "delicious" or "savory") came with it as a sales pitch when it was being marketed.  Caveat emptor.

 

Natural fish based sauces (notably made with anchovies) were an Asian favorite for thousands of years without carrying the label "umami," and without doing any damage to the CNS and the optic nerve or causing the "Chinese restaurant syndrome" psychiatrists and neurologists routinely deal with.  I buy mine at an Asian market -- I think it's either from Vietnam or Thailand, too lazy to go to the fridge to check the label.  Ingredients: anchovies, water, salt.  That's what you want to shoot for.  It lasts forever, offers a generous helping of essential trace minerals (not listed on the label, yet I've researched and know they're there), but asks for some practice when used in cooking, because a little goes a long way and too little goes nowhere, and too much stinks.  Practice makes perfect.  I use it to replace part of the salt in soups, stews, sauces, etc..    

[Taomeow]

P.S. If one of the ingredients in an "umami" product is "natural flavor," that's MSG.  It can be labeled as natural because, well, it does occur as a natural amino acid -- not in the totally unnatural amounts it occurs in commercially though.  And not as a free-form amino.  When it's part of a whole chunk of a natural product, a whole sequence of amino acids whose order of absorption trumps glutamate (all amino acids are absorbed sequentially when you consume them as part of natural foods) will have it wait for an hour, or hours, by which time a lot of it will safely and naturally degrade, so you get exactly the amount your body knows how to handle when its turn comes.  But when it's a food additive, it overwhelms the system, and if it's used in the absence of other competing aminos (as in plant based fake meat and fish laced with tons of MSG), it will jump the gun right away.  Potentially causing a bunch of adversities I've mentioned above, and a bunch I haven't.    

[rainbowvein]

Fish laced with MSG?? 

Edited October 30, 2017 by rainbowvein

[Taomeow]

Just now, rainbowvein said:

Fish laced with MSG?? 

 

No.  Vegan sushi with fake fish laced with MSG.  And the like.  

[rainbowvein]

[Andrei]

That's exactly what I wanted to say: Umami is Monosodium Glutamate.

Monososdium Glutamate is a substance that appears during cooking of meat and salt, which is the oldest food humans ate since the fire was invented (which is around 1.5 mil years ago). 

That's why is the most addictive substance, it is deeply ingrained in the human psyche since the beginning of human race.

Just like sugar which is on par with the addiction, they both produce dopamine secretion just as any other drug.

Salted fish has naturally monosodium glutamate, as well as salted shiitake mushrooms or as any salted cooked meat.

They are harmless in small quantities (as found in nature or as a result of natural world) but very much harming to health in the refined state.

Here Japanese and Chinese got it wrong, they add monosodium glutamate to many dishes in their restaurants just to make them more tasty than natural, so that the customers become addicted. For the same reasons manufacturers of potato chips or any salted or sweetened packaged foods have monosodium glutamate added. But this is wrong since those food are empty of nutrients produce addiction and hormonal imbalances in the body.

 

[rainbowvein]

1 minute ago, Taomeow said:

 

No.  Vegan sushi with fake fish laced with MSG.  And the like.  

 

OK, so that is a fake umami human creation, that mock fish.

[liminal_luke]

A commonly available commercial fish sauce without any fishy additives:  Red Boat.

[Taomeow]

1 minute ago, rainbowvein said:

 

OK, so that is a fake umami human creation, that mock fish.

 

Among other things.  It's pretty much everywhere in processed foods.  And in Asia, where consumers are not (yet) as suspicious of the manufacturers' antics as in Europe and, to a much lesser extent, the US, the situation is even worse.

 

The Asian market I buy this and that from regularly has huge bags of MSG honestly labeled "MSG" on the lower shelf, I mean, something like 25 lb bags.  And a generous selection of smaller bags on upper shelves.  Many people who shop there, if they see one of those "no MSG" stamps you posted above on a package of something they want, will buy an extra package of MSG to spice it up.  It's very cheap.   

[rainbowvein]

45 minutes ago, Andrei said:

That's exactly what I wanted to say: Umami is Monosodium Glutamate.

 

[edited] I am not sure of the details, but @Taomeow's comments are helpful to understand the differences in added MSG and natural occurring glutamate. It is reported that there are other amino acids that offer the umami quality too.

 

"The main components of umami are glutamate, inosinate and guanylate. Glutamate is found in a variety of foods including meat, fish and vegetables. Inosinate is found in generous quantities in animal-based foods such as meat and fish, while large amounts of guanylate can be found in dried mushroom products such as dried shiitake."    From: http://www.umamiinfo.com/what/whatisumami/

 

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by rainbowvein

[rainbowvein]

1 minute ago, Taomeow said:

Among other things.  It's pretty much everywhere in processed foods.  And in Asia, where consumers are not (yet) as suspicious of the manufacturers' antics as in Europe and, to a much lesser extent, the US, the situation is even worse.

 

The Asian market I buy this and that from regularly has huge bags of MSG honestly labeled "MSG" on the lower shelf, I mean, something like 25 lb bags.  And a generous selection of smaller bags on upper shelves.  Many people who shop there, if they see one of those "no MSG" stamps you posted above on a package of something they want, will buy an extra package of MSG to spice it up.  It's very cheap.   

 

[C T]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

A commonly available commercial fish sauce without any fishy additives:  Red Boat.

Supposedly the creme de la creme of the fish sauce world. For some odd reason its not available in Ireland. 

 

I find the Thai sauces too pungent and salty, but my restaurants continue to use them as they are the most economical. 

 

At home, I use Korean fish sauce. Personal favourite - not overly salty and only mildly pungent. 

When I have time i usually make my own umami-filled cooking/soup stock with all natural ingredients, like seaweed, dried shiitake, marmite, roasted pork bones and dried shrimps or anchovies from Malaysia. 

 

One of the most expensive umami ingredient in SE Asia is conpoy (dried scallops). Adds a unique flavour to pricey chinese soups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conpoy

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by C T

[thelerner]

I've heard that the American love of coffee is due our lack of getting the 'bitter' taste.  It's the bitter that stimulates bile and and digestive juices.  Important and oft forgotten, like fiber or probiotics used to be. 

[C T]

30 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I've heard that the American love of coffee is due our lack of getting the 'bitter' taste.  It's the bitter that stimulates bile and and digestive juices.  Important and oft forgotten, like fiber or probiotics used to be. 

According to the older folks in our family, bitter foods are exceptionally good for blood detox and to purify marrow. My fave bitter veg is the Bitter melon (aka bitter gourd). The smaller Indian variety is super bitter, and super yummy when made up as a curry. The milder, bigger variety from SE Asia is great for soups or stir-fries. Love it. 

 

 

apologies for veering the steering

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by C T

[Gerard]

Let's get the facts right:

 

If MSG is so bad for you, why doesn't everyone in Asia have a headache?

 

Personally, I would be extremely worried about the following condition (*many diseases are a product of it yet Western Medicine doesn't acknowledge it!):

 

Damp-Heat

 

Note: difficult to clear, takes a long time 2-3 years in most instances, longer if chronic. Chinese herbs work better than acupuncture. Be aware of financial costs involved in removing damp-heat from the body. 

 

 

*Cirrhosis, manic depression, bi-polar disorder, cystitis, eczema, gallstones, epilepsy, gastritis, gastroenteritis, gingivitis, herpes, hepatitis, leukemia, insomnia, pancreatic cancer, peptic ulcer, prostatitis, rheumatoid arthritis, sciatica, thyroiditis, toothache, shingles, tremor, tonsillitis, etc., etc. 

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Gerard

[Taomeow]

20 minutes ago, Gerard said:

Let's get the facts right:

 

If MSG is so bad for you, why doesn't everyone in Asia have a headache?

 

 

 

Because an immediate reaction to MSG is as individual as, say, an immediate reaction to alcohol.  Many people get a headache from red wine, e.g..  I never do.  I never get a headache from MSG either -- though it does make me sluggish and lethargic (subjectively it feels like heavy weights attached to my qi), which is how I know it's been slipped into my food at a Chinese restaurant even though they put "no MSG" on the menu.  I just know a bit of neurochemistry, which is why I won't go by whether I get a headache or not, most effects are cumulative and either asymptomatic or the symptoms can masquerade as something entirely else.

 

Besides, if they overdo it, I can taste it and I hate the taste.  There's this one restaurant I used to frequent with my Chinese friends that serves many authentic Chinese dishes (the clientele are 99% Asians), and I was particularly enamored of their pork back with cabbage dish that is pretty impossible to make at home, it takes hours and something like local expertise.  Always ordered it there.  Then one day it tastes of MSG and I can't enjoy it.  I ask the waiter, new chef?  He confirms.  Bummer.  I loved that dish.   

[Gerard]

I know what you mean about the pork cabbage dish, possibly a Cantonese delicacy.  They are masters of cooking!

 

I also remember this guy who happened to cook a catfish using a special sauce tat took him 3 h to prepare. The result was spectacular!! Note that catfish is a very average fish to it but that Cantonese cook was a genius in the kitchen. 20 years on and still think of that dish.