What is Immortality?

[SeekerOfHealing]

38 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Is it that your sense of self is so strong as to persist forever, or persist longer? Or is it that you never die in the first place?

 

It's like that. When you create yang shen from yin shen and emptiness inside you. It's like having new body which mind is adapted to it. Like you got new hand which you never had but it's natural for you to use it. Or like you develop a muscle you never had and now you can take up more weights. It's something natural but yet beyond natural. Mind seems have natural adaptation tand affinity to the forms or formless states it touch. 

[Gunther]

Just crossed my mind:

As also in any (scientific) experiment, the observer is always outside/beyond/distant from the observation.

So for the mind (as conciousness awareness) to be able to observe space/time it has to be beyond/outside. It is therefore always already immortal.

Does that make kind of sense??😀😀

[Lost in Translation]

32 minutes ago, Gunther said:

Just crossed my mind:

As also in any (scientific) experiment, the observer is always outside/beyond/distant from the observation.

So for the mind (as conciousness awareness) to be able to observe space/time it has to be beyond/outside. It is therefore always already immortal.

Does that make kind of sense??😀😀

 

Very cool. I never thought about it from that point of view.

 

How do you reconcile the "outside" with what we experience day to day? It's one thing to say I am already outside (immortal), but I feel very much inside (mortal).

 

Non-dual stuff hurts my head...

[SeekerOfHealing]

All other descriptions of immortality are flawed here. if you are already immortal or "True self" is immortal, why do you keep struggle with this body and not go out? 

 

All other  comments related to mind ground, universal mind and other stuff are just xin. xin is not immortal. it's just xin. 

 

The problem is that if you are not immortal, you can not really speak anything about it as it will be only your imagination + your gathered information.

[Gunther]

45 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Very cool. I never thought about it from that point of view.

 

How do you reconcile the "outside" with what we experience day to day? It's one thing to say I am already outside (immortal), but I feel very much inside (mortal).

 

Non-dual stuff hurts my head...

Because we mistake our body/mind for the subject/observer. But if we include ourselves as objects of observation it's all clear. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Gunther

[ladyniguma]

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by ladyniguma
misspellings

[SeekerOfHealing]

Generally it's like that. Many people speak only about low xin achievements. 

[Lost in Translation]

42 minutes ago, ladyniguma said:

If the practitioner really wants to attain immortality he needs to build a new substitute body; then a transfer of consciousness takes place.

 

This is very easy to understand. Thank you for your clarity.

[Gunther]

Ok, interested to hear what exactly it is in daoist alchemy.

In Buddhism/Hinduism it is said that some can permanently remain in the 4th pranayama or breathless state, and so become kind of immortal. Methinks it just means they can live for a very long time maybe.

Does anybody know what is the nectar of immortality in daoism?

And is there a mention of the stuff that's squirts out the top of your head?

[SeekerOfHealing]

No, it can not wander on it's own as process of the creation is conscious. It can be attracted to certain things if it's yin shen as the body is attracted to the other bodies then you change your personality and the way you are to get this body. Yang shen is perfect and complete so it can not do anything like that. 

[Lost in Translation]

I'm really enjoying this thread. You guys have done a great job illustrating differences between Taoist approaches to immortality and Buddhism.

 

Thank you to everyone.

[Sudhamma]

The nearest Buddhist term to Immortality is 'Deathlessness', amata. Yet, any person born into the world from causal factors is conditioned to pass on in time; similarly with any dieties or gods, as their existence in time is conditional of their store of merits. Therefore, all sentient beings are subjected to samsaric existence.  Time is a relative measurement of duration according to the spheres of existence, in other words, time on earth is much shorter than the time in heavens. Thus seriously, the Daoist definition or understanding of Immortality is irrelevant in Buddhism (Theravaden's, that is). Take the 'parable' of the waves for instance, the character of the first wave is not the same with the subsequent waves, if that is the case, where is the unchanging originality (of the first wave) that is required identity for eternal existence?

[ladyniguma]

 

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Edited December 10, 2017 by ladyniguma

[SeekerOfHealing]

6 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

Zhang Sanfeng, Zhao Pi Chen, and Lu Dongbin all warn that it can wander on its own. If it is fully developed, then it might not. But between the formation state and full maturation state, it can wander. A number of disciples have failed in their training and lost track of it at that phase.

 

edit: (changed a name to conventional spelling)

 

 

I know this but I'm not following any texts beside to comparison of my experience. Conscious effort can not make unconscious spirit. Yin shen actually go out for a walk, even for couple days but it's okay actually, it's very pleasant to go out for a walk out of this world like taking refreshing shower. If you cultivation is right it will go back home like a dog after walk.

[windwalker]

25 minutes ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

 

I know this but I'm not following any texts beside to comparison of my experience. Conscious effort can not make unconscious spirit. Yin shen actually go out for a walk, even for couple days but it's okay actually, it's very pleasant to go out for a walk out of this world like taking refreshing shower. If you cultivation is right it will go back home like a dog after walk.

 

This is something that you can do or do?

 

how do you validate your experience out side

or your self?

[SeekerOfHealing]

You know what you experience, then you validate. For example when you got hit by something, you know it and later on you examine what happened to come to the right conclusion of what it was, who it was and what are results of it. It's the same if you properly practice. 

 

Yin shen coming out triggers automatic when your cultivation is right. It will happen certain times on certain levels you achieved. You can learn do this at will but it's not practical and not needed if you cultivate to yang shen.

Edited November 3, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[windwalker]

1 minute ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

You know what you experience, that you validate. For example when you got hit by something, you know it and later on you examine what happened to come to the right conclusion of what it was, who it was and what are results of it. It's the same if you properly practice. 

 

Yin shen coming out triggers automatic when your cultivation is right. It will happen certain times on certain levels you achieved. You can learn do this at will but it's not practical and not needed if you cultivate to yang shen.

 

 

all of which does not address my question,

 

its ok thanks...

[SeekerOfHealing]

You will only imagine things when I will speak about them the way you want it, which makes you more stupid. It's not the way of cultivation.

[windwalker]

1 minute ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

You will only imagine things when I will speak about them the way you want it, which makes you more stupid. It's not the way of cultivation.

 

 

dude,  you need to start taking your meds..

Would you call me stupid if I was standing before you,  

I don't think so, but ya never know.   

[windwalker]

rather then focus on the interaction.

It would be better just to ignore it .

 

My question was asked in earnest maybe taking the wrong way.

Probably so,  at any rate I'm out,,,sorry for the interruption. 

 

 

[C T]

some things never change

[Starjumper]

11 hours ago, Gunther said:

Just crossed my mind:

As also in any (scientific) experiment, the observer is always outside/beyond/distant from the observation.

So for the mind (as conciousness awareness) to be able to observe space/time it has to be beyond/outside. It is therefore always already immortal.

Does that make kind of sense??😀😀

 

No not really, sorry, it sounds like word games playing Finger Loui with logic.  

Edited November 3, 2017 by Starjumper

[awaken]

Ｉthink the manomayakaya in the Lankavatara sutra is the immortality. The Tai-Sian 胎仙 in yellow court jin is the immortality.

 

[Starjumper]

9 hours ago, Gunther said:

Ok, interested to hear what exactly it is in daoist alchemy.

In Buddhism/Hinduism it is said that some can permanently remain in the 4th pranayama or breathless state, and so become kind of immortal. Methinks it just means they can live for a very long time maybe.

 

Only Taoism tells it like it is, the others add blithering.  As proof I present to you the 'Shit Happens' list as per the different Religions of the world.

 

 

9 hours ago, Gunther said:

Does anybody know what is the nectar of immortality in daoism?

 

Saliva ... saliva yoga.

 

9 hours ago, Gunther said:

And is there a mention of the stuff that's squirts out the top of your head?

 

Chi energy beam.

[Wu Ming Jen]

living a long life is a blessing and dying young is also a blessing. The body is the stairway of growing into heaven while alive. Call the spirits back into the body. the gate is in the void with in.

 

Sending the bodies spirits out to search the endless search is common mortal stuff,. turn the light around, tie up the horse,

 

long and short, deep and shallow, birth and death. Taoist alchemy is life and death solving methods.

 

If verification of attainment is in the realm of duality, young and old and so on it will be impossible to tell if someone is immortal. but they will know you are.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Wu Ming Jen