What is Immortality?

[Starjumper]

10 hours ago, Gunther said:

In Buddhism/Hinduism it is said that some can permanently remain in the 4th pranayama or breathless state, and so become kind of immortal. Methinks it just means they can live for a very long time maybe.

 

Was the immortal Babaji Nagaraj a Hindu?  He became an immortal of the Taoist kind, and his yoga was a lot like my Nei Kung ... real Nei Kung.  I had a real brief conversation with him once.

 

It seems like the Hindus and the Buddhists, their illegitimate spawn, forget history easily and like to read books written by amateurs too much.   Mahayana is more true to the point in some ways because originally it was a Taoist sect where they simply changed their silly hats and robes and started calling themselves Buddhists.  The Silly Hats rule!

 

To those who are saying that spirit immortals are imaginary, or the the spirit realm does not exist, answer me this:  Why is it that immortals can have conversations with some people?   I know, I know, because we're crazy and imagining it, right?

[doc benway]

20 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

Considering how much time we dedicate to this stuff it's important to understand why we do it, no?

 

I'm not so sure of that, to be honest.

Understanding can be supportive but can equally, perhaps more frequently, be a distraction.

It reinforces the primacy of the one whose transcendence will bring us closer to what you seek.

 

[SeekerOfHealing]

Those people are not practicing neidan. If you practice neidan, spiritual world is at the length of your finger. 

 

About Babaji Nagaraj, when I used to study this kriya yoga lineage there was mention that he did ritual for this immortality, it's was not results of neigong practice. 

[allinone]

20 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Was the immortal Babaji Nagaraj a Hindu?  He became an immortal of the Taoist kind, and his yoga was a lot like my Nei Kung ... real Nei Kung.  I had a real brief conversation with him once.

 

It seems like the Hindus and the Buddhists, their illegitimate spawn, forget history easily and like to read books written by amateurs too much.   Mahayana is more true to the point in some ways because originally it was a Taoist sect where they simply changed their silly hats and robes and started calling themselves Buddhists.  The Silly Hats rule!

 

To those who are saying that spirit immortals are imaginary, or the the spirit realm does not exist, answer me this:  Why is it that immortals can have conversations with some people?   I know, I know, because we're crazy and imagining it, right?

 

everyone are buddhist, you don't need to believe in it or can hate it, you still are.

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

everyone are buddhist, you don't need to believe in it or can hate it, you still are.

That would depend on how you define "Buddhist", wouldn't it?

 

[C T]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

That would depend on how you define "Buddhist", wouldn't it?

 

it would actually depend on the limited availability of definitions if there's a disagreement, i think 

[allinone]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

That would depend on how you define "Buddhist", wouldn't it?

 

 

Everyone are buddhist is absolute statement. It could be as well said everyone are sgzljsaagfg. Its totally meaningless. So knowing  that we can define it and the answer is satisfaction what takes away the unsatisfactoriness you have, the sign of unsatisfactoiness is that you need answer. So you should focus on the suffering what absolute statements causes in you.

 

an example of such statement is. You are uttery a old dumbass weakling soon to be dead halfbrain looking tootlesss bread grumb beggar.

[allinone]

From Surangama Sutra, Glossary

 

Dharmadhàtu: (a) A name for things in general, noumenal
or phenomenal; for the physical universe, or any part of
it. (b) The unifying underlying spiritual reality regarded as
the ground or cause of all things, the absolute from which
all proceeds. (c) One of the eighteen dhàtus, or realms of
senses. There are categories of three, four, five and ten
dharmadhàtus. The ten are the realms of (1) Buddhas,
(2) Bodhisattvas, (3) pratyeka-buddhas, (4) ÷ràvakas,
(5) devas, (6) men, (7) asuras, or titans, (8) animals,
(9) hungry ghosts and (10) hells.

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

Those people are not practicing neidan. If you practice neidan, spiritual world is at the length of your finger. 

And if you practice sufism, God is as close as your jugular artery. 

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

Why is it that immortals can have conversations with some people?   I know, I know, because we're crazy and imagining it, right?

Would that be DSM 5 crazy or would you prefere another standard based on, well, weak foundations? 

[Rara]

15 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

Immortality is not about afterlife. The afterlife is non existent.

 

That was half of my point, just without being bold enough to say it as absolute as this.

 

Some opinions in this thread differ and suggest otherwise. But I was saying that I wouldn't translate immortality as your own sprit and flying off somewhere wonderful just because of your level of cultivation.

[Rara]

16 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

basic human being living regular material world will experience the feeling while dying in thousand fold. For example if you are good person you will be dying peacefully, some people call it karma but you do not have burden or regrets while dying so you will be reborn in higher realms which means you feeling of being good will be thousand fold for extent of time. After that your cease to exists totally. There is no more you, consciousness is gone.  It will just expand and then contract and say bye bye. You will not remember you loved ones, your efforts, yourself or anything.

 

If I might ask, how is this different to an afterlife? That realm before you cease to exist...

[Spotless]

"Beings" can be made as alluded to earlier by Starjumper in some reading he did. 

They can be quite real in all senses but they can be seen for what they are as well. I was very much surprised when meeting one clearly. It was an enormous being of a particular belief.

 

Traditionally an Immortal generally is one who has perfected the higher bodies - light bodies to the point at which they are suddenly transmuted in a sort of heat to crystalline clarity - through which all light can transmit with no heat: a conduit like gold - a super conductor of perfection yet not lost in dissolution.

 

Heated transmutation occurs many times prior to this point - though it is not known as heat.

 

As the steps are achieved it is not because of the acquiring of "priceless knowledge" - it is in the release of position upon position and willfulness. The "wave" intentionally suffering the deconstruction of its illusion and then upon Awakening continuing the deconstruction while imbuing the higher bodies. The higher bodies are worked upon both before and after Awakening but in Awakeness aspects unfold that are not possible prior.

 

The assumption that in each step "on the high" great knowledge is imparted is a bit of a misinterpretation - the great knowledge is imparted in the extradinary lightness of non-resistance. It is in this non-resistance that the non-resistance becomes the great knowledge and the great compassion and the great Love.

 

In so many ways it is the understanding of the Chinese finger puzzle - 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Spotless

[SeekerOfHealing]

17 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

That was half of my point, just without being bold enough to say it as absolute as this.

 

Some opinions in this thread differ and suggest otherwise. But I was saying that I wouldn't translate immortality as your own sprit and flying off somewhere wonderful just because of your level of cultivation.

 

It's not that you travel somewhere wonderful, you are become wonderful as yang shen and self satisfied with yourself, perfected and you can even perfect more in yang shen state to attain more wisdom and power. And yes you leave the body if you level cultivation is full for human being, then you go beyond. 

[SeekerOfHealing]

14 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

If I might ask, how is this different to an afterlife? That realm before you cease to exist...

 

Read what I said and this is self explaining question. The afterlife is not here-and-there stuff. It's transformation which takes place "inside" you. There is no afterlife, only transformations of your own energies to something else depends on it's qualities and cultivation level. 

[Michael Sternbach]

I think the best analogy for dying in our personal experience is falling asleep. Does our consciousness continue to exist while we sleep? Of course it does, even though the waking mind (which is the part mostly focussed on the external physical world) is on a break.

 

Now many can keep a state of self-awareness similar to that of the waking mind while asleep. We call that lucid dreaming. I think, it's fair to say that this is experienced more commonly by spiritually more evolved people.

 

In my view, experiencing death is analogous to this: The inner self continues its existence anyhow, but how far can the outer self (which is what many people identify themselves with almost exclusively) follow it into the inner world and stay awake or aware? The ability to do this to the highest degree defines spiritual immortality for me. And yes, there are meditative practices both of Eastern and Western origin conducive to this.

 

Now when I say that the inner self continues its existence anyhow, I am not talking about something really separate from the self we are familiar with. The latter is more of a specific focus of the former in the first place. (There is a common misconception here. We don't have a soul. We are a soul.)

 

Many feel that they are not quite "themselves"  in daily life. "They" are swayed by and "lose themselves" in external circumstances. In contrast, the inner self is our true self. Call it our original face or the part that chose to incarnate in this specific form. Connecting to it feels like we become more ourselves. It feels like coming home. Meditative practices generally aim at that state.

 

"Physical immortality" is a conception that takes this up a notch. It refers to the transference of the immortality of the spiritual inner self to the physical body. In principle, the body's existence can indeed be greatly (even indefinitely) extended. But for that to happen, it needs to be sufficiently permeated by spirit. It will then be continuously regenerated from the very source that created it in the first place. Again, there are practices that are conducive to that.

 

There are also certain remedies imbued with spirit which, by resonance, help the body and mind to more fully connect to spirit, thusly extending their existence. Manufacturing such is the aim of external alchemy, in contrast to internal alchemy, which is pursuing this by way of meditative practices alone.

[Lost in Translation]

I love where this conversation is going, but there is one thing I alluded to in my original post that we really haven't discussed. This is fear.

 

Everything changes. If something changes 'enough' then it appears as destruction, thus nothing lasts forever. We all know this. So the desire for immortality is, at its core, a desire to not change - to hold on to what we have and remain. This desire to not change looks to me like fear of change.

 

Put it this way:

 

If a child wanted to remain a child forever he would fear growing up.

If a youth wanted to remain a youth forever he would fear growing old.

If a man wanted to live forever he would fear death.

 

But children do grow up, and youths do grow old, and men do die.

 

So we've talked about the how of immortality. What's the why of immortality?

[SeekerOfHealing]

To be more concrete. Yang shen is not permanent, it's just perfectly fit into mechanism of Dao that why it's last forever. Changing but never changing at the same time. 

 

Immortality is just option for those who have such destiny (ming). Most people have to die one day, even those on spiritual path. Sadly all their effort will be put in vain. It's better to focus on getting good deeds and lend hand to suffering ones if you are regular person.

[9th]

38 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

So we've talked about the how of immortality. What's the why of immortality?

 

As you said... if everything always changes, then what?

 

Quote

Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

 

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "

 

"But how, friend, did you attain the Deathless?"

 

"Just now, friend, I saw Ven. Assaji going for alms in Rajagaha: gracious in the way he approached and departed, looked forward and behind, drew in and stretched out his arm; his eyes downcast, his every movement consummate. On seeing him, the thought occurred to me: 'Surely, of those in this world who are arahants or have entered the path to arahantship, this is one. What if I were to approach him and question him: "On whose account have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or in whose Dhamma do you delight?"'

 

"But then the thought occurred to me: 'This is the wrong time to question him. He is going for alms in the town. What if I were to follow behind this monk who has found the path for those who seek it?'

 

"Then Ven. Assaji, having gone for alms in Rajagaha, left, taking his alms. I approached him and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, I stood to one side. As I was standing there I said, 'Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear.' On whose account have you gone forth? Or who is your teacher? Or in whose Dhamma do you delight?'

 

"'There is, my friend, the Great Contemplative, a son of the Sakyans, gone forth from a Sakyan family. I have gone forth on account of that Blessed One. That Blessed One is my teacher. And it is in that Blessed One's Dhamma that I delight.'

 

"'But what is your teacher's teaching? What does he proclaim?'

 

"'I am new, my friend, not long gone forth, only recently come to this Dhamma & Discipline. I cannot explain the doctrine to you in detail, but I will tell you the gist in brief.'

 

"'Speak a little or a lot, but tell me just the gist. The gist is what I want. What use is a lot of verbosity?'

 

"Then Ven. Assaji gave me this Dhamma exposition:

 

"'Whatever phenomena arise from cause: their cause and their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, the Great Contemplative.'"

 

Then to Moggallana the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.

 

"'Even if just this is the Dhamma, you have penetrated to the Sorrowless (asoka) State unseen, overlooked (by us) for many myriads of aeons.'"

 

[awaken]

We see the live and the death. Some people might want to know what is behind all?Anyway to being away from live and death?

buddha and lao Zi told us there is a path. I would like to try it. To find out what it is going on. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by awaken

[Purple Gold Qilin]

Think of it like this. The natural state rejuvenates and charges you. When you relax you buzz vibrate feel heat and light starts to emanate from the body with an ahhh type of sound....

[SeekerOfHealing]

13 minutes ago, Purple Gold Qilin said:

Think of it like this. The natural state rejuvenates and charges you. When you relax you buzz vibrate feel heat and light starts to emanate from the body with an ahhh type of sound....

 

That's the only beginning of transformation of yin shen. 

[silent thunder]

awareness abides

 

mind is ever expanding and contracting

body is accumulating/decaying simultaneously

 

awareness abides

[9th]

 拈華微笑

[Starjumper]

4 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

About Babaji Nagaraj, when I used to study this kriya yoga lineage there was mention that he did ritual for this immortality, it's was not results of neigong practice. 

 

Kriya yoga was not the yoga which Babaji did, Kriya yoga is something he suggested that would be good for modern day bozos with short attention spans.  The practice he was taught and that he did for himself was quite different than Kriya yoga, he was a student of a powerful wizard, a Siddha, from Ceylon, which is why I wondered if it was officially Hindu or not.  Anyway I was told by someone who seemed to be an authority on this subject that his yoga contained thousands of techniques and was like chi kung, which points to it being nei kung.  Nei Kung being the huge parent systems (and the path of the wizard) from which widdle itsy bitsy wimpy chi kung techniques are stolen from and paraded around as being 'it'.