What is Immortality?

[Lost in Translation]

48 minutes ago, gj551 said:

sorry i thought it was all about creating a yang spirit/embryo (shengtai) to leave the body to appear in countless transformation bodies in space

 

 

Is there a special significance to the number 5 (or 25) or is this simply artistic expression?

[Mudfoot]

Probably a wuxing thing.

 

To be interpreted in any which way. 

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Probably a wuxing thing.

 

To be interpreted in any which way. 

Looks like in which direction the feather is pointed is important.  Each suggesting one of the five conditions mentioned.

 

 

[Mudfoot]

Down, Water 

Resting,  Earth

Up, Fire 

Right and left for Wood and Metal. 

[Lost in Translation]

2 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Down, Water 

Resting,  Earth

Up, Fire 

Right and left for Wood and Metal. 

 

This adds much context to the diagram.

Thank you!

[Mudfoot]

Every phase then divides in five, they are drawn as smaller versions of the same phase, which is surprising. 

I would have expected this :

p 

[Mudfoot]

And why would I expect that?  Because Matsumoto/Birch put it into a book? 

No,  because that is how I experience it in the wuxing quan that is part of my tradition. The phase I am working with dominates the exercise, but the rest are there as well. 

And for me,  this would be a pure post Heaven method, which means that even if you do them in the order of "Reversal",  I doubt it has a great impact on immortality. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Mudfoot
Added sentence

[Oneironaut]

My questions relating to this topic:

 

1) How rare is it for Taoist cultivators to reach immortality?

 

2) Is immortality and achieving the golden dragon body of light the same thing?

 

excuse my ignorance. I’m much more familiar with Buddhism and to my knowledge Buddhism is about enlightenment and does not recognize immortality.

[Lost in Translation]

I'm really impressed that we're well into page six of this thread and it's still civil and educational.

 

Keep it up, everyone!

[Gunther]

14 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

I'm really impressed that we're well into page six of this thread and it's still civil and educational.

 

Keep it up, everyone!

But we still don't know what immortality is.😀or are we talking about the definition of immortality? In which case I have to rest mine😀

Edited November 8, 2017 by Gunther

[Gunther]

Xian (Taoism)

This article is about Taoist religion. For other uses, see Xian (disambiguation).

Xian (Chinese: 仙/仚/僊; pinyin: xiān; Wade–Giles: hsien) is a Chinese word for an enlightened person, translatable in English as:

• "spiritually (Yang Untouchable) immortal; transcendent; super-human; celestial being" (in Daoist philosophy and cosmology)
• "physically (Yin Touchable) immortal; immortal person; immortalist; saint" (in Daoist religion and pantheon)
• "alchemist; one who seeks the elixir of life; one who practices longevity techniques" or by extension "(alchemical, dietary, qigong) methods for attaining immortality" (in Chinese alchemy)
• "wizard; magician; shaman" (in Chinese mythology)
• "genie; elf, fairy; nymph" (in popular Chinese literature, 仙境 xian jing is "fairyland", faery)
• "sage living high in the mountains; mountain-man; hermit; recluse" (folk etymology for the character 仙)
• "immortal (talent); accomplished person; celestial (beauty); marvelous; extraordinary" (metaphorical modifier)

Xian semantically developed from meaning spiritual "immortality; enlightenment", to physical "immortality; longevity" involving methods such as alchemy, breath meditation, and tai chi, and eventually to legendary and figurative "immortality".

The xian archetype is described by Victor H. Mair.

They are immune to heat and cold, untouched by the elements, and can fly, mounting upward with a fluttering motion. They dwell apart from the chaotic world of man, subsist on air and dew, are not anxious like ordinary people, and have the smooth skin and innocent faces of children. The transcendents live an effortless existence that is best described as spontaneous. They recall the ancient Indian ascetics and holy men known as ṛṣi who possessed similar traits.1994:376

According to the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism, Chinese xian (仙) can mean Sanskrit ṛṣi (rishi "inspired sage in the Vedas").

 

So looks like it's about enlightenment, liberation, self realisation.

Some might practice some Taoist magic I know nothing of. Can everybody who is 1000 years old or over please step forward.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Gunther

[C T]

Best to keep an open mind. There are reports of deathless saints in perpetual samadhi up in various locations in the Himalayas. Naturally, legends abound of the various magical presences and feats they possess and have demonstrated to rare individuals who had the affinity to meet a couple of these 'light' beings, the most renowned of course is Mahavatar Babaji (Autobiography of a Yogi). There was I think mention of someone taking a photo of him, and when it was developed, there was no Babaji in shot. 

 

Friends I have met have been on guided journeys of discovery to some of the holy sites in the mountains, with the hope of meeting at least one of these avatars, but all in vain. Sure, they met sadhus and yogis leading hermitic lives, in long-term retreats and such, but none was found to be more than 70 years old. But the fact that these sagely beings are able to sustain themselves in those harshest of harsh conditions and still remain bright and in profound quiescence would suggest that indeed some of them have managed to access (at least) the principle/s that may lead to some level of mastery over the physical world/body. 

 

There are suggestions that, aiming to preserve the sanctity of Kailash and her surrounds, the understanding among local guides and villagers is to never lead outsiders/tourists to the actual avatars' caves, but this has not been verified, though its a probability. 

 

Babaji - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji

Mt. Kailash - https://sacredsites.com/asia/tibet/mt_kailash.html

 

 

Supertramp recorded a song dedicated to Babaji

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by C T
late edit.. grammar

[Gunther]

2 hours ago, C T said:

Best to keep an open mind. There are reports of deathless saints in perpetual samadhi up in various locations in the Himalayas. Naturally, legends abound of the various magical presences and feats they possess and have demonstrated to rare individuals who had the affinity to meet a couple of these 'light' beings, the most renowned of course is Mahavatar Babaji (Autobiography of a Yogi). There was I think mention of someone taking a photo of him, and when the it was developed, there was no Babaji in shot. 

 

Friends I have met have been on guided journeys of discovery to some of the holy sites in the mountains, with the hope of meeting at least one of these avatars, but all in vain. Sure, they met sadhus and yogis leading hermitic lives, in long-term retreats and such, but none was found to be more than 70 years old. But the fact that these sagely beings are able to sustain themselves in those harshest of harsh conditions and still remain bright and in profound quiescence would suggest that indeed some of them have managed to access (at least) the principle/s that may lead to some level of mastery over the physical world/body. 

 

There are suggestions that, aiming to preserve the sanctity of Kailash and her surrounds, the understanding among local guides and villagers is to never lead outsiders/tourists to the actual avatars' caves, but this has not been verified, though its a probability. 

 

Babaji - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji

Mt. Kailash - https://sacredsites.com/asia/tibet/mt_kailash.html

 

 

Supertramp recorded a song dedicated to Babaji

 

 

 

No doubt, keep an open mind.

In India there are still siddhis around, I've seen one buried alive for 7days at the kumbha Mela. None of the caliber of an avatar. A being of light.

Still I think the stories are largely myth. The appearance they make is likely their energy body in the minds of some.

Why would they go to the trouble to maintain a particular bag of bones?

Even, by would they preserve their individual mental body which is just their personal memories and social conditioning. They obviously merged that with cosmic consciousness which is all pervading, all knowing.

IMHO they are energies which manifest according to cosmic law. As it states in the Indian scriptures. An avatar appears when the world needs one. Maybe it's about time😀😀

Methinks the closest we can come to understand immortality is on the experiencing level.

I don't know the relevant terms in Taoism but in yoga is is when the jiva(soul) escapes through the fontanella and merges with shiva(universal conciousness, blissful silence, infinite luminous space) at the same time, that prana flowing through the central channel the in and outgoing breath is suspended.

It is an experience without experiencer, yet fully conscious and alive. Therefore the assumption that this is where we go/how it feels after we leave the body/physical death. It is intuitive knowledge that cannot be put into definitive words/explanations.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Gunther

[rainbowvein]

4 hours ago, Oneironaut said:

1) How rare is it for Taoist cultivators to reach immortality?

 

Like finding a grain of millet in a haystack?

 

Past life trajectory plays a large part too.

Edited November 8, 2017 by rainbowvein

[Oneironaut]

4 hours ago, rainbowvein said:

 

Like finding a grain of millet in a haystack?

 

Past life trajectory plays a large part too.

 

Without seeming disrespectful why bother trying to cultivate it?

[Mudfoot]

Cultivating the mind might lead to realization/awakening, but you might never reach this goal. Instead you become calmer and more resilient to the hardships of life. 

 

Cultivating the energy body might lead to an indestructible yang shen (you can find the same in buddhist tantric traditions),  but you might never reach this goal. Instead you become healthier and more resilient to the hardships of life. 

 

[Gunther]

44 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Cultivating the mind might lead to realization/awakening, but you might never reach this goal. Instead you become calmer and more resilient to the hardships of life. 

 

Cultivating the energy body might lead to an indestructible yang shen (you can find the same in buddhist tantric traditions),  but you might never reach this goal. Instead you become healthier and more resilient to the hardships of life. 

 

What about reincarnation in daoism?

Edited November 9, 2017 by Gunther

[Mudfoot]

[Mudfoot]

I have read somewhere that if you fail to unite your hun and po,  your po will dissolve at your death and the remains might be reused as components of another living creatures po. 

 

But I am not a daoist, so I do not have the full daoist thought on this subject. 

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, Mudfoot said:

I have read somewhere that if you fail to unite your hun and po,  your po will dissolve at your death and the remains might be reused as components of another living creatures po. 

 

But I am not a daoist, so I do not have the full daoist thought on this subject. 

Yes, same when jiva and shiva unite. If it's temporary, what could be termed satori, it's called twija or second birth. It removes all doubts about your eternal nature but: Unless you take care of this newborn soul baby( meaning accept it as your real immortal identity, live from this non abiding awareness moment to moment) you return back to live in your gross body and that's it. Until the moment of death where you have another great opportunity to return into the silent bliss, infinite luminous space of universal conciousness.

The ignorant mind identified with the body survives a bit longer, dissolves, all memory lost, and the inherent tendencies are born again.

That's what I gathered from books and teachings.

Cant be dogmatic about it, I'm not dead yet😀

Edited November 9, 2017 by Gunther

[cold]

15 hours ago, rainbowvein said:

 

Like finding a grain of millet in a haystack?

 

Past life trajectory plays a large part too.

 

Actually finding grains of millet in a millet haystack is easy if one knows what to look for , past life experience either helpful  or not.

Now trying to find grain in a straw pile is as they say a horse of a different color.

[ladyniguma]

I deleted this post because the comments convinced me that I am wrong. Sorry if I misled someone.

Edited December 10, 2017 by ladyniguma
uploaded doc file

[Maddie]

31 minutes ago, ladyniguma said:

 

 

3. Why in many doctrines (incl. Buddhism) they teach that reaching Enlightenment is the final stage?

Achieving Enlightenment is very important phase of the process of Self realization but does not give real immortality.

When a person reach Enlightenment he/she gets the taste of eternity, of non-duality, he/she realizes in their own experience the real nature of the consciousness. BUT IT IS NOT the final stage of 真人.

 

 

I can offer some explanation on the Buddhist perspective. 

 

The reason Buddhism teaches that Enlightenment or Nirvana is the final stage is one of if not the central teaching of the Buddha. The end goal as taught by the Buddha was not immortality but Nirvana which means cessation. 

 

The reason for this is that the Buddha taught three things that characterize Samsara and dissatisfaction. The first is impermanence (anicca) that nothing lasts forever within Samsara. The second is suffering or (dukkha) or unsatisfactoriness. The third is non-self (anattaa). 

 

Since the question asked here was why Buddhism teaches what they do as they do, I hope this at least explains why. 

 

[C T]

Even immortals will one day exhaust their seemingly endless existences and be reborn as humans on their way to final emancipation. According to Buddhist notions pertaining to the above, human birth is the most conducive and most precious of birth next to buddhahood. In other words, immortals cannot become buddhas without first becoming humans, and humans that gain immortality will still retain the karma that will lead to rebirth in the human realm at some point. Only buddhas attain the final extinguishment and be free of the wheel of samsara. 

 

This will explain why Buddhist practitioners do not share the idea that immortality is the highest aim, and therefore it is not accurate to suggest the question why Buddhists mistake that enlightenment is final. The reason for this has been explained above. It is not a mistake for those who practice the Buddhist path. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by C T

[ladyniguma]

Edited December 10, 2017 by ladyniguma