What is Immortality?

[Lost in Translation]

What is Immortality?

 

The obvious answer is 'not mortality.' Ok, but what does that mean?

 

I've been thinking a lot about this subject. The best answer I've found is 'more life', specifically 'infinite life.' But what does that mean, or more specifically what does that imply?

 

When I walk down that road I come face to face with fear, and with self (or perhaps ego). Self wants more, because self is afraid to die. Self want immortality to assuage its own fear.

 

So, is immortality real? What is it?

[windwalker]

3 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

So, is immortality real? What is it?

 

Maybe understanding  of that which you think of as  "you" is an illusion

as such was never mortal to begin with.

 

 

An example we often use in Buddhism is that of the wave and the water. The wave springs from the ocean and when you observe the phenomenon of the wave, … Before arising it seems that the wave did not exist, and after going down, we don’t see it existing either. … But at the same time we know the wave is also water.

 

 

 

[SeekerOfHealing]

Immortality is as the definition of the word. Either you are living immortal which can live infinite or very long time in this body or you develop immortal spirit where consciousness is saved and imprinted so you exist in various worlds and travel thru them. 

[Rickie]

Being remembered.

[doc benway]

My opinion and experience is that immortality does not mean 'more life for me in this body' in the Buddhist or Daoist context.

If it did, we could all go study and practice with Daoist immortals on this Earth and in this waking life.

There would be endless news stories of the 3,000 year old masters with video clips and reality shows...

 

Immortality means to experience a personal and direct connection to that which transcends life and death and to abide in that essence and awareness, allowing it to inform your every thought, word, and action. 

Skillful meditation can help you get in touch with that, if you haven't yet felt it, far easier than philosophy or thought.

 

[Starjumper]

In Taoism there are quite a few kinds of immortals, filling a spectrum of forms to formless, all the way from hungry ghosts to immortals who's vibration is so high that they can no longer communicate with our level, and even the gods can't see them.  I think gods are one type of immortal.

 

There are what are called Earthly Immortals, those who live in a body for a very long time in good health, Like Li Ching Yuen, I kind of like his style because he had like twenty wives ... but not all at the same time.  There are different levels of these with different abilities.  Then there are the spirit immortals, I can't recall the proper term for them.  They do not have a body but their consciousness remains as a cohesive unit so to speak, one which retains awareness.  Some of these can manifest a body, and some of them can have conversations with mere mortals if they want to go to the bother; most people not being worth the bother.

 

I saw a list of the different types of immortals once, I think there are officially seven levels or types.

 

Some may just be honorary immortals, in other words they didn't really make it to immortal on their own but their popularity has resulted in them being termed immortals.  I don't know which those might be, but possibly Chuang Tzu or Lao Tzu could be of this type.  Then there is the added element which goes along with popularity, which is the power of belief and worship.  If enough people believe and worship some being that really had not reached immortal level then the power of their combined belief can create an entity.  Does this entity bind with the original person who is the object of the worship or is it separate?  I don't know.  One person who has power can create an entity but it takes a lot of people who are without power to create one.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Starjumper
speeling

[Starjumper]

3 hours ago, steve said:

My opinion and experience is that immortality does not mean 'more life for me in this body' in the Buddhist or Daoist context.

 

Well you see, we can see here that your experience amounts to zero so your opinion is way off.

 

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If it did, we could all go study and practice with Daoist immortals on this Earth and in this waking life.

 

Not a chance in hell of that.

 

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There would be endless news stories of the 3,000 year old masters with video clips and reality shows...

 

Not a chance in hell of that.

 

Feel free to ask why.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Starjumper
speeling

[Lost in Translation]

7 hours ago, windwalker said:

An example we often use in Buddhism is that of the wave and the water.

 

Thank you very much for this response! This is an example I have heard many times, and have used myself in the past. Upon deeper reflection however, I see difficulties with it.

 

The main difficulty lies in the nature of wave verses ocean (water). Of course both the wave and the underlying ocean are made of the same stuff, i.e. water. The have the same essential substance. In this regard they are one and the same. However, the ocean and wave have a very different form. The wave is a motion traveling through a medium. It is an expression, and is inherently dynamic. The wave is also unique, and once its motion has run its course it 'dies' and never returns. Yes, the water through which the wave flowed returns to the ocean (in the case of a surface wave - and to be fair it never actually left the ocean), but the water is not the wave. It's not the motion. It's not dynamic movement.

 

In this sense you (and me, and everyone else) are motion traveling through the medium of flesh. When you (and me, and everyone else - as motion) run your course and die, the flesh returns to the 'ocean' of dust from whence it came. This is fairly obvious.

 

But the grand hypothesis (that I can neither prove nor disprove) is that we are more than our flesh. We have mind, we have soul. The notion is that mind and soul survive death and attain immortality. Assuming this is true, then the mind and soul are similarly waves upon the medium of 'Mind' or the medium of 'Soul' (other words for God, or Source, of 'The Force' or whatever term feels right with you.) But - and this is my entire point - just as the flesh is not the person, the soul is not Source. It may arise from Source and be comprised of Source but it is not Source.

 

So, what is immortality?

[Lost in Translation]

@windwalker

@SeekerOfHealing

@Rickie

@steve

@Starjumper

 

Thank you all for your wonderful answers! I hope this thread can be illuminating for all Bums. Considering how much time we dedicate to this stuff it's important to understand why we do it, no?

[Starjumper]

5 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

... or you can develop immortal spirit where consciousness is saved and imprinted so you exist in various worlds and travel thru them. 

 

This bears repeating, because in some religions it is believed that everyone continues on as some kind of spirit entity which retains it's consciousness after they die, but that is not the case.  Only a few people continue on as a cohesive 'unit' with consciousness, for most people their meager life energy simply evaporates into the background energy field and nothing of 'self' is left.  Only people who have cultivated energy and spirit to a certain level are able to maintain consciousness as a continuing unit.

[Lost in Translation]

2 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

This bears repeating, because in some religions it is believed that everyone continues on as some kind of spirit entity which retains it's consciousness after they die, but that is not the case.  Only a few people continue on as a cohesive 'unit' with consciousness, for most people their meager life energy simply evaporates into the background energy field and nothing of 'self' is left.  Only people who have cultivated energy and spirit to a certain level are able to maintain consciousness as a continuing unit.

 

Awesome. Thank you!

 

But how is cultivating 'energy and spirit to a certain level are able to maintain consciousness as a continuing unit' different than developing a very powerful ego? I would imagine that a truly 'conscious' being would gracefully (and happily) accept death unless there was a significant reason not to. If so, what would that reason be?

[Starjumper]

Concerning my mention of honorary immortals and whether or not Lao Tzu was an honorary or a real immortal:  I read a story about an Englishman who communicated/channeled some spirit and this being gave him a lot of valuable information.  It wasn't till after this had gone on for quite a while that the spirit revealed his name, and it was Lao Tzu.  This would indicate that Lao Tzu actually was a real spirit immortal rather than just an honorary one.

 

Another thing is that dragons are also a type of immortal.  All all dragons immortals?  I don't know that but I do know they exist in the spirit realm, and the spirit realm is a lot bigger than our realm here on Earth.    Are dragons entities that were once human and evolved or chose to become dragons, or are dragons originally dragon beings, some of who choose to bind themselves to some humans, or manifest as human for a life?

 

Are all beings in the spirit realm immortals?  It would seems so.  It also stands to reason the other races, extraterrestrial races, would also be able to become immortals.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

59 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

How is cultivating 'energy and spirit to a certain level are able to maintain consciousness as a continuing unit' different than developing a very powerful ego?

 

A reeeally old Taoist (who I deem to have been an immortal), who corresponded with me a fair amount said that a person's ego 'should' "be like a wild stallion racing free across the open plains", in other words, yes, a powerful ego; and it's important here to mention that a powerful ego is very different from an egotistical person.  A powerful ego is actually the primary manifestation of Shen.  Cultivating energy and spirit would lead to a powerful ego but I'm not sure if a powerful ego also means that the person has cultivated those things.  The primary energy and spirit ability that I was referring to is acquiring the ability to astral project.  I mean really astral project, not just dreaming or visualizing.

 

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I would imagine that a truly 'conscious' being would gracefully (and happily) accept death unless there was a significant reason not to. If so, what would that reason be?

 

Yes, they lose fear of death.  Probably the main reason for continuing is that they have some job they feel that they need to complete while still in a material body.

 

Which points to my chi kung teacher, who is now a  spirit immortal.  Up until he was 96 he had black hair and was vigorous.  His hair actually got a bit blacker and his bald spot got smaller while I knew him.  A couple of years after he retired from teaching chi kung and jettisoned me and my kung fu buddies I went to see him and I was shocked to see that his hair had become white and thin and he looked a bit frail.  His wife told me that he had stopped doing his chi kung a couple of years prior.  He was a living immortal but died at the age of 98, his wife was a nurse and had talked him into getting a flu shot each year, and those are a bit poisonous, as well the food, water and air are poisonous.  So it's possible for an immortal to die young so to speak.  In this day and age, in our toxic world, I imagine that the age of long lived Earthly immortals is pretty much over, but it's one thing that motivated me to move to the crest of the Andes mountain chain, where the air and water are really pure, and there is a twelve month growing season for growing pure food.

 

My chi kung teacher went on to be a most high level spirit immortal, I was informed of this when a real good channeler tried to contact him and was advised that his vibration was so high that he could no longer communicate with this level.  Closer to the light they say, can't even be seen by gods they say.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Starjumper

[SeekerOfHealing]

15 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

This bears repeating, because in some religions it is believed that everyone continues on as some kind of spirit entity which retains it's consciousness after they die, but that is not the case.  Only a few people continue on as a cohesive 'unit' with consciousness, for most people their meager life energy simply evaporates into the background energy field and nothing of 'self' is left.  Only people who have cultivated energy and spirit to a certain level are able to maintain consciousness as a continuing unit.

 

 

Immortality is attained when alive, you do not become immortal after life. That 100% sure and my experience, even with yin shen when you go out you know you are deathless in your experience as yin shen. If you die a regular human person you do not attained anything beside merits and better rebirth, but you are not "you" no more.

 

[centertime]

From reading stories about reincarnation.. It implies there is more permanent self across lives which in cases, like to do same thing... to be become musician in one example...

Or tried to win a situation that lost in past life. 

There was a story about someone who was fed up with dying so early so many times.

I can imagine there are people who are more aware of their permanent self...which makes them view life differently.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by centertime

[Lost in Translation]

13 minutes ago, centertime said:

From reading stories about reincarnation.. It implies there is more permanent self across lives which in cases, like to do same thing... to be become musician in one example...

Or tried to win a situation that lost in past life. 

 

 

I hear this a lot, and it makes a certain amount of sense. But it also implies that "you" (manifest self) are not "You" (spirit self). Which further inplies that "you" (manifest) cannot actually be immortal. I'm trying to get a handle on that.

[centertime]

4 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I hear this a lot, and it makes a certain amount of sense. But it also implies that "you" (manifest self) are not "You" (spirit self). Which further inplies that "you" (manifest) cannot actually be immortal. I'm trying to get a handle on that.

They must be connected to a degree...

 

[Rara]

8 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

Immortality is as the definition of the word. Either you are living immortal which can live infinite or very long time in this body or you develop immortal spirit where consciousness is saved and imprinted so you exist in various worlds and travel thru them. 

 

Two are quite far-fetched ideas and are just as dogmatic as any other "afterlife" belief.

 

I take the term with a pinch of salt. A hyperbole for a healthy mind, body and spirit. I don't know what happens to the latter, but I'll find out (or not) in due course.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Rara

[Rara]

13 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I hear this a lot, and it makes a certain amount of sense. But it also implies that "you" (manifest self) are not "You" (spirit self). Which further inplies that "you" (manifest) cannot actually be immortal. I'm trying to get a handle on that.

 

As above, I say the manifest self and spirit self are the same. I can't see another way.

 

You can remove self by meditating, but that self is an "idea" or an "ego". It helps calm us down and to remember in the grand scheme of things, we are "one".

 

I suppose, in other words, "it's all in your head, maaaan"

[C T]

In the more profound stages of mantrayana, although there is no reference to immortality, its however possible to learn of a practice known as the 'xyz'. According to this sadhana, it is said that humans are limited to 21,600 breaths per day (pro-rata due to the age factor - the older one gets the faster one uses up the given no. of breaths, up to a point) over the lifespan determined by their individual karma, so one who engages in the above practice basically learns to master the breath thru this 'xyz yoga', which, if done correctly, will effect a decrease in the rate of breathing, which corresponds to an increase in lifespan. I believe there's a similar kind of practice to be found in Taoism as well, although im not sure of the specifics. 

 

 

Note on 'xyz yoga' - This yoga is classified under Highest Yoga Tantras, therefore must apologise for not being able to reveal the name of the practice due to ethical reasons. 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by C T

[Wu Ming Jen]

Immortality the realization that ending is beginnings after the end, before beginning, before the beginning began existent, non existent. one minute mortal the next immortal. Water turns to ice and ice turns to water the endless transformations of energy.

 

Do not let the world dictate the view, going along and walk through the gate of death, turn around and walk through the gate of life It is all up to oneself. How strong is ones will is it broken by life or do we surf the endless wave.

 

Then as Starjumper mentions the many types and levels of immortality.

 

Mortals are short sighted immortals have a very long view..

 

Something I find fascinating of ancient cultures is the length of time one ruler had as well as in the bible  living for 900 years or so.

[SeekerOfHealing]

2 hours ago, Rara said:

 

Two are quite far-fetched ideas and are just as dogmatic as any other "afterlife" belief.

 

I take the term with a pinch of salt. A hyperbole for a healthy mind, body and spirit. I don't know what happens to the latter, but I'll find out (or not) in due course.

 

Immortality is not about afterlife. The afterlife is non existent. I will tell you what happen afterlife as I already have insight into this matter. Depends on your level of cultivation, but basic human being living regular material world will experience the feeling while dying in thousand fold. For example if you are good person you will be dying peacefully, some people call it karma but you do not have burden or regrets while dying so you will be reborn in higher realms which means you feeling of being good will be thousand fold for extent of time. After that your cease to exists totally. There is no more you, consciousness is gone.  It will just expand and then contract and say bye bye. You will not remember you loved ones, your efforts, yourself or anything. Look at death as a bird eating the fruit. He will eat everything but seed will be there which can not be digested, so it's going the other side. Same with you and everybody else. In death (yin) there is a life (yang) so the yang seed is dropped so to speak, I can not tell you exact matter how it goes, but it goes like this. your yang seed develop another form, formless or whatever depends of it's quality which gains in this lifetime and others.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Everyone knows exactly what the after life is and what before life is. It is called by many as I do not know or the unknown.

 

The  mind that needs to know is the same mind that keeps people mortal and out of heaven while one is alive.

[Lost in Translation]

17 minutes ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

Immortality is not about afterlife. The afterlife is non existent. I will tell you what happen afterlife as I already have insight into this matter. Depends on your level of cultivation, but basic human being living regular material world will experience the feeling while dying in thousand fold. For example if you are good person you will be dying peacefully, some people call it karma but you do not have burden or regrets while dying so you will be reborn in higher realms which means you feeling of being good will be thousand fold for extent of time. After that your cease to exists totally. There is no more you, consciousness is gone.  It will just expand and then contract and say bye bye. You will not remember you loved ones, your efforts, yourself or anything. Look at death as a bird eating the fruit. He will eat everything but seed will be there which can not be digested, so it's going the other side. Same with you and everybody else. In death (yin) there is a life (yang) so the yang seed is dropped so to speak, I can not tell you exact matter how it goes, but it goes like this. your yang seed develop another form, formless or whatever depends of it's quality which gains in this lifetime and others.

 

This description is beautiful. Thank you!

 

So how does immortality apply here? Is it that your sense of self is so strong as to persist forever, or persist longer? Or is it that you never die in the first place?

[Gunther]

IMHO what is termed immortality is the unborn enlightened mind. It is awareness aware of itself only. In the meditative state it is like infinite space, silent, luminous, eternal, empty. No world, no body, no breath in that absorption.

This can be experienced directly by everybody. All the different concepts in different schools are not to be taken literally.

Peace

Edited November 2, 2017 by Gunther