Mind only

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, C T said:

since all is going with causes and conditions, the phrase 'free of obstructions' is an unnecessary addition since obstructions do not inherently exist. The notions of obstacles and the opposing factors which constitute that which are deemed as non-obstacles arise together, remember? 

Yes, no non obstacles either.

You look at anything a bird, a table, a cup, a clock, and don't even know what it is. But if needed, instantly, in a flash you know it's quarter past two😀

[Gunther]

★★ Suddenness Chan : No Mind, No Things; No Action, No Effort!
____________________________________________

◆ Chan Master Linji Yixuan, the Dharma heir of Huangbo Xiyuan, expounded the Dharma gate of the mind ground of Suddenness Chan：

“Chan Master Linji addressed the assembly, saying, ‘Followers of the Way, as to the Chan Dharma (Buddhadharma), effortlessness is necessary. You only have to be with ordinary mind, and with nothing to do except defecating, urinating, wearing clothes, eating food, and lying down when tired.  Fools laugh at me, but the wise actualize. The ancient worthy said that those who seek outward are just a bunch of ignorant persons.  Therefore, just be your own master of every situation, and the very standing place itself is the true reality. No matter what circumstances come they cannot turn you around.  Even though there are past habitual patterns and five uninterrupted karmas, these of themselves are the ocean of emancipation.’”
(The Discourse Record of Chan Master Linji Huizhao) 

▲ Chan Master Linji Yixuan obviously and directly points at the Chan Dharma that it is only of no mind and no things, and of no action and no effort. That is to say, in ordinary daily activities, no matter in wearing clothes and eating food, cleaning and sweeping, carrying water and moving wood, working and exercising, bathing and defecating, resting and sleeping, etc., Chan practitioners merely have to live their ordinary pure life with the ordinary mind (mind of non-abiding awareness), then they are able to be their own masters at any time and in any place, and at every right moment suddenly see into the reality of all things.  Even more they will become the host among hosts, and are always compatible with reality of the Dharma Realm of One Reality. Thus, situations occurred cannot turn the already manifested pure mind around. Furthermore, even if there are such matters as habits of ignorance and karmas without beginning, these essentially are the wisdom-ocean of great enlightenment with great emancipation and great freedom. 

▲ A monk asked Dazhu Huihai, ‘Do you still have [effortless] effort on the Way?’ Dazhu said, ‘Yes, I do.’  The monk asked, ‘How to have [effortless] effort？’ 
Dazhu said, ‘Eat when you are hungry and sleep when you are tired.’ 
The monk asked, ‘Does this mean every person is always practicing the same way as the Master?’  Dazhu said, ‘It's not the same.’  The monk asked, ‘Why it's different?’ Dazhu replied, ‘When people eat, they are unwilling to eat their fill and have hundreds of deluded thoughts. When people sleep, they are unwilling to take their fill of rest and have thousands of discriminations. Therefore, this is the main difference.’ 

―→ All sentient beings' mind have been defiled for a long time, and their deluded thinking and attachments are impossible to be put into full rest; thus, they cannot eat one-mindedly without all kinds of deluded thoughts while eating, and also cannot sleep one-mindedly without all sorts of discriminations while sleeping.  Therefore, they have been in vexation for a long time, have been confused with inverted views, and have turned their backs on awakening and turned around to embrace the illusory sense-dusts, so as to have been wallowing in birth and death in the ocean of suffering. Chan practitioners merely need to directly harmonize with the ordinary mind of non-abiding awareness, and remain unchanging throughout the day. Meanwhile, there is no need to put forth mind power and be diligent, let alone act with effort and be pretentious.  Therefore, it is said that to have an insight into the Mind and see into the self-nature, and to attain sudden enlightenment and become a Buddha is the easiest, most natural task. It is something lies in you yourself without seeking outward.

▲ All Chan/Zen fellow-practitioners !
―→ ●“As to the Chan Dharma, effortlessness is necessary.”→ No things in mind, no mind in things ! 
―→ ● “Chan does not need cultivation, but only not to defile it.”→ Ordinary mind (mind of non-abiding awareness) is Chan ! 
―→ ●“To have an insight into the Mind and see into the self-nature, and to attain sudden enlightenment and become a Buddha is the easiest, most natural task.”→ Just take good care of your own intrinsically sufficient spiritual treasury ! 

🙏❤🙏💛🙏💜🙏

____________________________________________

[shortstuff]

Only read page one.

 

How do you know Consciousness is a mind?

 

For example "we" don't think about breathing or beating our hearts. Consciousness does it for "us".

 

When "someone" is really ill, say, they have AIDS, which is uncurable, if Consciousness was a mind, my guess it would come to the conclusion that it is best to end that "persons" current-body so they enter a new life-cycle with a body that does not have that terminal illness.

This is what minds do. They think, they mentally masturbate and then they post threads on forums, like this thread, for other "people" to mentally masturbate to.

Consciousness does not do any of this. It just Does.  I say with a capital D on purpose.

Consciousness just does.

Therefore to me it is not a mind.

P.S having to put speech marks about any I or We or They is getting stupid but it is just to avoid replies like "but who is the I that is..."

[Mark Foote]

On 11/4/2017 at 7:02 AM, Gunther said:

Suppose:

There is only one mind

The concious presence

The field of awareness

Every thing appears/disappears in it

If you say it's all real, that's ok

If you say it's all unreal, that's ok

If you think some things are real/right and others are unreal/wrong😀😀you are in trouble, that's called confusion.

Peace

 

"Let the mind be present without an abode."

(Translation Venerable Master Hsing Yun, from "The Rabbit's Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra", Buddha's Light Publishing pg 60)

 

I don't think it's possible to avoid making judgements--the question is do we act upon them, and of course we generally do, by habit. 

 

I sit and the mind that is present without abode acts, with the movement of breath: there is relaxation and calm, there is thought and the cessation of habitual activity.  Sometimes the mind that is present without abode gets up and walks around, with the movement of breath; I have faith that it can.

 

My experience and consequently my faith allow my action apart from my judgement, at times.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Mark Foote

[taoguy]

It is very similar to how Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev explains it. 'Psychological drama' has become the main emphasis of our life. It is like a tennis-game that we have become unable to stop playing. If we are able to immediately stop playing it, it can become a tool of mastery, etc. But we have made this 'psychological drama' to be so important that it has overtaken everything else about us in life. Instead of just living in pure perception, drinking tea while drinking tea, eating while eating, drinking while drinking, urinating while urinating, walking while walking, we live in completely 'different worlds within our minds' while doing daily tasks, prancing between future and past, clinging onto a falsely-conceived continuity of self from moment to moment, thinking of mental/physical accumulations as a continuous-self, without realizing that they are all phenomena, perfect projections within mind, floating mirages that are only supported by endless causes and conditions, but ultimately stemming from the I-thought.

Edited January 6, 2018 by taoguy

[taoguy]

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

"Let the mind be present without an abode."

(Translation Venerable Master Hsing Yun, from "The Rabbit's Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra", Buddha's Light Publishing pg 60)

 

I don't think it's possible to avoid making judgements--the question is do we act upon them, and of course we generally do, by habit. 

 

I sit and the mind that is present without abode acts, with the movement of breath: there is relaxation and calm, there is thought and the cessation of habitual activity.  Sometimes the mind that is present without abode gets up and walks around, with the movement of breath; I have faith that it can.

 

My experience and consequently my faith allow my action apart from my judgement, at times.

 

It is not about stopping the mind's function of thoughts. We don't stop the heart, the kidneys, the lungs or intestines, why do we want to stop the brain? The reason is because we are excessively identified with the thoughts in the mind, therefore we wish to get rid of it. We are less conscious of our kidney functions, so we can't be bothered with them. The biggest identification is taking impermanent things as the "I", and this is the one really huge factor that prevents a person from truly "non-dwelling".

 

Even if you think you are non-dwelling, you are doing it consciously, whereas subconsciously you are holding onto a notion of an experiencer, a "person" that carries out that non-dwelling, and the self does not completely vanish. The subject-object duality is really deeply-rooted and this has been one of the hardest things for me to see through in my own practice.

 

The biggest benefit of Buddhism is that it does not simply chase a realm or state, it doesn't chase a samadhi or a no-thought state, or a realm of non-dwelling. It uses wisdom to liberate - by discerning things as impermanent, detaching from them the notion of a self, etc.

Edited January 6, 2018 by taoguy

[thelerner]

Quiet Mind Good.

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, taoguy said:

 

It is not about stopping the mind's function of thoughts. We don't stop the heart, the kidneys, the lungs or intestines, why do we want to stop the brain? The reason is because we are excessively identified with the thoughts in the mind, therefore we wish to get rid of it. We are less conscious of our kidney functions, so we can't be bothered with them. The biggest identification is taking impermanent things as the "I", and this is the one really huge factor that prevents a person from truly "non-dwelling".

 

Even if you think you are non-dwelling, you are doing it consciously, whereas subconsciously you are holding onto a notion of an experiencer, a "person" that carries out that non-dwelling, and the self does not completely vanish. The subject-object duality is really deeply-rooted and this has been one of the hardest things for me to see through in my own practice.

 

The biggest benefit of Buddhism is that it does not simply chase a realm or state, it doesn't chase a samadhi or a no-thought state, or a realm of non-dwelling. It uses wisdom to liberate - by discerning things as impermanent, detaching from them the notion of a self, etc.

 

There's wisdom and then there's "perfect wisdom":

"Whatever... is material shape, past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self,' sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom.   Whatever is feeling ...perception ...the habitual tendencies ...whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present ...(such a person), thinking of all this consciousness as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self,' sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom.  ... for (one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer" in regard to this consciousness-informed body."

 

(Majjhima Nikaya, Vol. III 19, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 68)

 

 

There's the suffocation response as habitual activity of the body is relinquished in the movement of breath--the relaxation and calm that allows self-surrender in the face of the suffocation response makes the difference (between wisdom and perfect wisdom), I do believe.

 

For me, experience with equalibrioception, proprioception, and graviception has made a real difference in realizing my thinking mind as just one of the senses, and allowing the heart-mind to be present without abode.

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Mark Foote

[taoguy]

7 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

There's wisdom and then there's "perfect wisdom":

"Whatever... is material shape, past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self,' sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom.   Whatever is feeling ...perception ...the habitual tendencies ...whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present ...(such a person), thinking of all this consciousness as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self,' sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom.  ... for (one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer" in regard to this consciousness-informed body."

 

(Majjhima Nikaya, Vol. III 19, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 68)

 

 

There's the suffocation response as habitual activity of the body is relinquished in the movement of breath--the relaxation and calm that allows self-surrender in the face of the suffocation response makes the difference (between wisdom and perfect wisdom), I do believe.

 

For me, experience with equalibrioception, proprioception, and graviception has made a real difference in realizing my thinking mind as just one of the senses, and allowing the heart-mind to be present without abode.

 

 

Okay, I understand what you are getting at with 'relative' vs 'absolute' wisdom, or mundane vs supramundane wisdom. Also, thank you for posting a link to what you mean, I just read through it.

 

However, I'm not sure about your interpretation as written inside your page. I suppose you can interpret it that way for now, but I have a somewhat different take on it. The way I interpreted what you quoted by the Zen master on your 'suffocation response' page is very different. This is the quote in question:

 

Quote

"... Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life. Only then do you realize that it is as open as empty space. Only then do you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality." - "Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu", translated by J.C. and Thomas Cleary, pg 84

 

The way you interpreted it seemed to me, correct me if I'm wrong, to be: The cutting off of mental-processes that distort sensory data from the sense-organs, hence allowing the senses to become 'heightened in acuity' and be "as open as empty space".

 

I do agree with that. The senses turn from being filtered by a mind that classifies it as 'pain' or 'pleasure' (feelings), which subsequently leads to craving and aversion, subsequently allowing the birth of thoughts, allowing a whole mass of suffering to arise. This is very clearly supported by an understanding of Dependent Origination. So just to be clear, I completely support your understanding in what you wrote.

 

However, the quote itself seems to be talking about something else, especially this: "Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life."

 

Actually, this Zen master is talking about it literally. He's not trying to talk metaphorically, because it is literally what happens. When you do meditation, eventually the external-breath seems to stop, as if you have died. It becomes extremely still, as if there is no breathing occurring at the nose. The entire body feels as if it was recharged or rejuvenated completely, so filled with energy that it cannot 'intake' anymore. At this point, the latent energy in the body, the Kundalini, bursts forth, surging through the entire body's channels, unblocking blocked channels. This is what is known as the "great death", and also what it means to "come back to life" after the "breath is cut off". It literally happens when you go deep enough in meditation, and you should know this if you've really gone that deep into samadhi, it's something everyone should go through particularly if you cultivate the Wind-Element.

 

In the I-Ching, this is associated with the Hexagram of Stillness, which actually indicates growth, rejuvenation and restoration. When things rest, they are actually growing. For example, when a boy in puberty goes to sleep, it is during sleep that he experiences sudden bursts in height and body-mass. Or inside a seed where germination occurs, etc. Due to the mind and body becoming so still, to the point where it becomes nearly like it's dead (hence "great death"), this potential bursts forth suddenly, like how the seed of Yang appears when things become too Yin.

 

Then the master followed with these words "Only then do you realize that it is as open as empty space. Only then do you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality". What he means is that at this point, you've finally reached true stillness of the mind, and hence you see how 'open it is as empty space', and you've touched reality with pure perception.

 

Therefore going back to your statement:

 

Quote

There's the suffocation response as habitual activity of the body is relinquished in the movement of breath--the relaxation and calm that allows self-surrender in the face of the suffocation response makes the difference (between wisdom and perfect wisdom), I do believe.

 

Yes, there is habitual activity of the breath. However, which comes first... Breath or mind? Mind is the forerunner of all things, declared by the Buddha - Mind is what comes first, which then lends a support for other things to occur, even the movement of chi or Wind. That's why in dependent origination, the Buddha starts the first cause/platform as Ignorance, then the production of a Consciousness, and only later on leading to the Five-senses and so on. It's because phenomena is really mind-created, it is "inside-out", not "outside-in". Without consciousness as a platform, there will be no condition for an experience of a body etc.

 

When mind is silenced in samadhi, the breath will naturally stop. If you've experienced it before, it is as if there is an invisible energy that suddenly manifests, suppressing thoughts, straightening the body as if it was magnetic. The lower dan-tian will be pulsating, as if you were a fetus inside a mother's womb still connected to the umbilical cord. Then this energy just bursts forth without warning, cleansing your entire body's channels, pushing out the junk-blockages, allowing rejuvenation, cleaning and restoration. 

 

You're right though, the thinking-mind is like a sense. It's a little different from the other five-senses though. The five-senses are like neutral gates that allow things in through sensory contact, and are also shaped by karma according to their bodily structures. The thinking-sense has an additional discriminatory function that likes to group things into name-and-form. Also, it receives habitual thoughts from the memory of the Alaya-consciousness (Fundamental mind ground that stores karmic seeds), so it is like a bridge between the experience of the five senses and past-habit-formations. 

 

I know I probably wrote more than I had to, but what I'm trying to get across (and possibly not doing well at explaining my pov) is that it is not that easy to dissolve karmic-energies just like that. Karmic-energies are countless-of-aeons old, from an innumerable beginning, and they arise when there are appropriate conditions present.

 

Meditation allows the disengagement of perpetuating habit-energies, they do not completely sever them. When karma ripens in the Alaya, it can appear through the thought-sense. At this point, most people become overly-involved in the narrative that it is playing, self-identifying themselves as the habit-thought, and this produces even more karmic-seeds that go back into the Alaya, awaiting future ripening again. It is like a fruit-tree that produces seeds, and then nothing is done to stop the seeds from growing into more fruit-trees that continue to produce even more seeds, and so on. 

 

As for the MN19 quote on supramundane-wisdom, the keyword there is actually "latent conceits". The difference between mundane and supramundane in my very humble opinion, is as follows: Mundane wisdom is intellectually-understood wisdom, merely on the conscious level. Supramundane wisdom is possibly far beyond just a consciously-understood or consciously-experienced level, with the elimination of the self-view completely. I know some people who have said that they suddenly experienced the absence of a self, and it just came suddenly, after years of meditation. It was a very sudden insight into selfless nature, a spontaneous occurrence when the self-view suddenly stops. Just like how a Zen master awakens just looking up at flowers, or countless other people like that. However, it's not without cause - their previous meditation experiences obviously had something to do with this.

 

Again, this is just my understanding, I may be wrong, but maybe this helps you understand my pov.

Edited January 7, 2018 by taoguy

[Mark Foote]

(Response to taoguy)

I was excited a few months ago to find a work that quoted Yuanwu, amplifying on what he meant by "die the great death"--here it is:

"People who have died the great death are all free of the Buddha-Dharma, free from its principles and its abstruseness, free from gain and loss, right and wrong, merit and demerit; they have reached here and rest in this way."

(Yuanwu, from "Critical Sermons of the Zen Tradition: Hismatsu's Talks on Linji", pg 155)

 

This appears as a footnote to a recent post on my own blog, Twenty-second Case: Hsueh Feng's Turtle-Nosed Snake, where I offer this explanation (from an earlier post):

 

 

Coming back to life is coming back to my senses (including equalibrioception, proprioception, and graviception). When I come back to my senses, the location of my awareness can move even if the rest of me is still, that is "open as empty space"; the rest of me can move when the location of my awareness is still ("the millstone turns but the mind does not"), that is "feet walking on the ground of reality". I can breathe.

(An Image in the Place of an Image, Zazen Notes, Feb. 6, 2016)

 

 

I don't have your experience with kundalini.  As you are probably aware, Gautama spoke of the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing, as one of the cessations of the fourth material meditative state (along with the cessation of happiness, apart from equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses). 

 

With regard to dependent origination, between "ignorance" and "consciousness" are the activities:

 

“Conditioned by ignorance activities come to pass; conditioned by activities consciousness, conditioned by consciousness name-and-shape, conditioned by name-and-shape sense, conditioned by sense contact, conditioned by contact feeling, conditioned by feeling craving, conditioned by craving grasping, conditioned by grasping becoming, conditioned by becoming birth, conditioned by birth old age-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this entire mass of ill.”

 

(SN II 2, Pali Text Society Vol II pg 2)

 

The “activities” are defined as volitive or “determinate” bodily deed, speech, or thought (AN III 415, Vol III pg 294 and SN II 3, Vol II pg 4; the cessation of the activities, meanwhile, is identified with the cessation of speech, the cessation of “inbreathing and outbreathing”, and the cessation of “perception and feeling”, SN IV 217 Vol IV pg 146).

 

This is why I conclude that the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing that Gautama spoke of is the cessation of volition, or intention, or habitual activity, in connection with the breath, rather than the actual cessation of the breath itself.  

 

An experience of the absence of self in activity, of the cessation of habitual activity in speech, body, or thought, is a wonderful thing, yet sitting down to experience such a thing is fraught with peril..  So, for example, Shunryu Suzuki admonishes Blanche Hartman:  "Don't ever think that you can sit zazen! That's a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen!" 

 

Similarly, Dogen quotes a koan:

 

'Mayu, Zen master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?"

"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Mayu replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."

"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. Mayu just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.'

 

(Genjo Koan)

 

Maybe if the author of the koan had not added, "the monk bowed deeply", folks would have thought that Mayu's action in fanning himself was just old Mayu, continuing to willfully fan himself--I don't know!

 

When Gautama says " for (one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer" in regard to this consciousness-informed body", I believe he is talking about the day when Mayu discovered himself continuing to fan in the absence of any exercise of will to do so, and I'm sure the experience for Mayu had as much to do with breath as my experience of zazen getting up and walking across a room--everything to do with the breath, as a part of the wind that reaches everywhere!

 

It requires "dying the great death", a willingness to give up activity, to such an extent with regard to the body that the suffocation response is invoked, yet moment-to-moment relaxation and calm can be continued.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Mark Foote

[taoguy]

On 1/8/2018 at 5:30 AM, Mark Foote said:

(Response to taoguy)

I was excited a few months ago to find a work that quoted Yuanwu, amplifying on what he meant by "die the great death"--here it is:

"People who have died the great death are all free of the Buddha-Dharma, free from its principles and its abstruseness, free from gain and loss, right and wrong, merit and demerit; they have reached here and rest in this way."

(Yuanwu, from "Critical Sermons of the Zen Tradition: Hismatsu's Talks on Linji", pg 155)

 

Thank you for that quote, it gives it more context. What is strange is that in the previous quote, he elaborated on what the great death was as "losing the breath and then coming back to life". Perhaps the discrepancy comes from an incongruent translation into English, but I may be wrong in that part of the interpretation. However, I still stand by my stance that it is not a "suffocation response", not a state of No-Thought where you suppress thoughts, but rather the cessation of the actual breath itself.

 

On 1/8/2018 at 5:30 AM, Mark Foote said:

This appears as a footnote to a recent post on my own blog, Twenty-second Case: Hsueh Feng's Turtle-Nosed Snake, where I offer this explanation (from an earlier post):

 

 

Coming back to life is coming back to my senses (including equalibrioception, proprioception, and graviception). When I come back to my senses, the location of my awareness can move even if the rest of me is still, that is "open as empty space"; the rest of me can move when the location of my awareness is still ("the millstone turns but the mind does not"), that is "feet walking on the ground of reality". I can breathe.

(An Image in the Place of an Image, Zazen Notes, Feb. 6, 2016)

 

 

That is where I do have a bit of a problem reconciling my experience with that. For example, when we enter lucidly the dream-body, we immediately know that the way to manipulate a dream-body is no longer 'muscular' in nature, but the use of pure mental intention. For example, if I wish to move to a certain sphere of reality, I intend to move towards it, instead of trying to utilize muscular force to 'walk'. If I wish to see something, I intend it. Also, the senses become like a 'sphere', but is yet not limited by space or time and is hence "omnipresent". There is always somewhat a 'center' in that sphere that does not move, whereas phenomena is like a projection on the inner side of the sphere, appearing around the center. My description is a little bad, but I hope it gets across.

 

On 1/8/2018 at 5:30 AM, Mark Foote said:

I don't have your experience with kundalini.  As you are probably aware, Gautama spoke of the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing, as one of the cessations of the fourth material meditative state (along with the cessation of happiness, apart from equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses). 

 

That is very true. One master that I corresponded with said that the heart-beat also stops after fourth dhyana, especially when he leaves the body in the manomayakaya. He actually said that he was sent to the hospital for missing a pulse, thinking it was a heart attack or something, and woke up unpleasantly in the hospital bed with no recollection of what happened to the body in that period of time. What he says is that when you leave the body, like a snake shedding its skin, in a mind-generated body, you do not have the corporal senses of the physical body, as such, it is almost as if the body is dead, except it retains warmth.

 

Perhaps I was wrong at determining the 'great death' to the indicator of the kundalini arising. Maybe I should have been clearer - the breath-stopping that I mean is actually a sensation of the external breath (air movement) stopping. The breath inside the body continues to move, being pumped by the dan-tian, just like a fetus. The 'breath' doesn't stop yet because there is still the Wind Element interacting inside the body.

 

On 1/8/2018 at 5:30 AM, Mark Foote said:

With regard to dependent origination, between "ignorance" and "consciousness" are the activities:

 

“Conditioned by ignorance activities come to pass; conditioned by activities consciousness, conditioned by consciousness name-and-shape, conditioned by name-and-shape sense, conditioned by sense contact, conditioned by contact feeling, conditioned by feeling craving, conditioned by craving grasping, conditioned by grasping becoming, conditioned by becoming birth, conditioned by birth old age-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this entire mass of ill.”

 

(SN II 2, Pali Text Society Vol II pg 2)

The “activities” are defined as volitive or “determinate” bodily deed, speech, or thought (AN III 415, Vol III pg 294 and SN II 3, Vol II pg 4; the cessation of the activities, meanwhile, is identified with the cessation of speech, the cessation of “inbreathing and outbreathing”, and the cessation of “perception and feeling”, SN IV 217 Vol IV pg 146).

 

By "Activities", I think that you meant "sankhara" or "samskara", which are more appropriate words. In the Anapanasati Sutta, there is this step called "He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily sankhara.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily sankhara." The question is, what exactly is this bodily sankhara?

 

Sankhara actually means conditioning that is formed from impressions, ideas, actions, etc. In the Anapanasati Sutta, which I assume we are talking about now in breath-meditation, the Buddha listed two forms of sankharas that are dealt with: Bodily Sankhara & Mental Sankhara. I do agree with you that they can be somewhat 'activities'. So when we feel all sorts of interactions in the body like itching, pain, warmth, coolness, etc - these are somewhat part of bodily sankhara, and the goal is to "calm them down" along with mindfulness of breath.

 

On 1/8/2018 at 5:30 AM, Mark Foote said:

 

This is why I conclude that the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing that Gautama spoke of is the cessation of volition, or intention, or habitual activity, in connection with the breath, rather than the actual cessation of the breath itself.  

 

There is no question that thoughts are linked to the breath. For example, when the mind is restless or sluggish, the breath becomes shallow. When mind is relaxed, breath is deep. When the mind is free from gross-thoughts, the breath becomes subtle. When mind is utterly freed from thoughts and afflictions, breath naturally stops.

 

For example, if a SWAT team were to suddenly crash into your home through the window, at that moment, you would be entirely shocked and your mind would be wiped blank. When you are shocked, you don't breathe. At extreme states, the breath doesn't move. There is a very intricate and nearly-integral connection between breathing and thoughts.

 

Therefore, on reflection, I do agree with you that until mental sankhara is completely eliminated as in the fourth dhyana, the breath cannot entirely cease. However, when they are indeed eliminated, the breath does cease, and the reason for that is that the body is already in a 'death' if you leave with the spiritual-body or enter the immaterial/arupa realms.

 

On 1/8/2018 at 5:30 AM, Mark Foote said:

An experience of the absence of self in activity, of the cessation of habitual activity in speech, body, or thought, is a wonderful thing, yet sitting down to experience such a thing is fraught with peril..  So, for example, Shunryu Suzuki admonishes Blanche Hartman:  "Don't ever think that you can sit zazen! That's a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen!" 

 

Similarly, Dogen quotes a koan:

 

'Mayu, Zen master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?"

"Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Mayu replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere."

"What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. Mayu just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.'

 

(Genjo Koan)

 

Maybe if the author of the koan had not added, "the monk bowed deeply", folks would have thought that Mayu's action in fanning himself was just old Mayu, continuing to willfully fan himself--I don't know!

 

This is interesting, thank you for sharing. I don't know and don't claim to know the answer to the koan. From my perspective, 'reaching everywhere' means the Wind Element which is part of what makes up the All. It is found in every organism, soil, mountains, atmosphere, etc. 

 

On 1/8/2018 at 5:30 AM, Mark Foote said:

When Gautama says " for (one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer" in regard to this consciousness-informed body", I believe he is talking about the day when Mayu discovered himself continuing to fan in the absence of any exercise of will to do so, and I'm sure the experience for Mayu had as much to do with breath as my experience of zazen getting up and walking across a room--everything to do with the breath, as a part of the wind that reaches everywhere!

 

It requires "dying the great death", a willingness to give up activity, to such an extent with regard to the body that the suffocation response is invoked, yet moment-to-moment relaxation and calm can be continued.

 

The problem with this is that the suffocation response (which you describe to be tachycardia, tachypnoea, dyspnoea, choking, chest pain, feelings of impending doom, faintness) is not supposed to happen during the process where you move towards a still mind. What should happen is a gradual change in relationship between breath and thoughts. On the external-breath, firstly becoming deeper, then flipping 'opposite', then becoming subtler and subtler until it appears to vanish. Then the internal-breath, the calming down of the Wind just like how you open up the windows to a room, the wind moves and gushes (chi movement), and then it eventually callibrates with the external atmosphere (true opening of chi channels). We can only talk about truly moving past the bodily sankhara when all the chi channels are opened and the body is transformed...

[Mark Foote]

taoguy, if I quote your response we'll get so long, we'll be here all alone.

 

Maybe we are already, I don't know.

 

Your experience with lucid dreaming is pretty interesting, as is the description by the master of his experience with the arupa jhanas.  Gautama does say this:

 

“...[an individual], not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attends to solitude grounded on the concentration of mind that is signless. [Their] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [They] comprehend thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the [holy]-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.”

 

(MN III 108-109, Vol III pg 151-152--emphasis mine)

 

So there's a lot going on in that quote, but I wanted to point out that it's not about leaving the senses behind--that doesn't happen, at least according to Gautama.  Moreover, there is knowledge and freedom, and Gautama speaks of these as parts nine and ten of the ten-fold path of the adept.  So, not so much a crossing-over into enlightenment, never to be concerned with the elements of the path again, but returning with new elements of the path.

 

The ceasing of the activities in the jhanas he says is gradual.  Zen, of course, is a sudden school. 

 

It's interesting to me that in the chapter on "intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" in Sanyutta V, Gautama has to respond to the suicide of many of his monks (they were meditating on the unlovely aspects of the body, as he had instructed them to do, and they took the knife by the scores).  He called the monks together, and lectured about what he described as his own way of living, before and after enlightenment, a thing perfect in itself--the implication being that a lack of enlightenment was no hindrance to this way of living, that it could be pursued regardless.  Very Soto.  That way of living is the setting up of mindfulness, as described in Anapanasati Sutta.

 

So the question might be, what happens suddenly?

 

Knowledge of the suffocation response is useful to me, not because of the clinical symptoms, but because it can be overcome by relaxation, as the commentator on the scholarly article said:

 

"My husband is a spear fisherman and he can hold his breath underwater for almost four minutes. He was trained to do so in a manner similar to how they train Navy Seals. They are able to do relaxation techniques and override their body's impulse to panic."

 

Anapanasati Sutta does include relaxation of activity in the body in inhalation and exhalation, and calming the mind similarly.  The setting up of mindfulness concludes with the beholding of impermanence, of detachment, of cessation, and of relinquishment, always in conjunction with inhalation or exhalation (mindfulness of states of mind)--I would say that a freeing of the direction of the mind in inhalation and exhalation and an encounter with the suffocation response seems like a natural prelude to the beholdings, to me.

 

I'm thinking the overcoming of the suffocation response is the sudden thing in Zen, and associated with "the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing".  Not the same thing as "Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the [holy]-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so", but it's possible to enter on Gautama's way of living without enlightenment, and he recommended it.

 

The "windy element", I know the phrase appears in Buddhaghosa's "Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga).  I remember reading his description of walking as the windy element pulling the body forward, something like that.  Yup. 

 

I'm thinking it's associated with this:

"[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… sympathetic joy… equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence."

(MN I 38, Pali Text Society volume I pg 48)

 

 

The "excellence of the heart's release" through the suffusion of compassion, in particular, is associated with the arupa jhana characterized by the "infinity of ether".  I can't dance unless the mind of friendliness and compassion suffuses the "people on the other side of the wall", as Kobun said.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Mark Foote

[C T]

I think its a misconception to take 'cessation of breath' literally. 

[dwai]

On 11/4/2017 at 4:15 PM, Gunther said:

😀😀Well, I prefer not to.

As the person (full of shit) appears in my mind, my mind would be full of shit as well.

That immediately poses the question: what comes first😀😀

Have you ever perceived anything outside your mind???😀

 

 

[Mark Foote]

16 hours ago, C T said:

I think its a misconception to take 'cessation of breath' literally. 

 

C  T, I did cite chapter and verse from the Pali sermons to that effect a few posts back.  Here it is again from the cleaned up version that I posted on my blog:

 

 

 

What did Gautama mean by "the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing"? The phrase occurs often in the Pali sermon volumes (along with "the cessation of perception and sensation"). Did he actually mean that the breath stops?

What Gautama meant can be established by cross-referencing the teachings in the sermons about what he referred to as "activities".

Gautama's truth concerning the origination of suffering placed "activities" between "ignorance" and "consciousness":
 

Conditioned by ignorance activities come to pass; conditioned by activities consciousness, conditioned by consciousness name-and-shape, conditioned by name-and-shape sense, conditioned by sense contact, conditioned by contact feeling, conditioned by feeling craving, conditioned by craving grasping, conditioned by grasping becoming, conditioned by becoming birth, conditioned by birth old age-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this entire mass of ill."

(SN II 2, Pali Text Society Vol II pg 2--for more on the four truths, see the prior post, Zen, Part Three)

He defined "activities" as "determinate" bodily deed, speech, or thought (AN III 415, Vol III pg 294 and SN II 3, Vol II pg 4). The cessation of the activities constituted the cessation of speech, the cessation of "in-breathing and out-breathing", and the cessation of "perception and feeling" (SN IV 217 Vol IV pg 146).

"The cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing" is therefore the cessation of determinate activity in the movement of breath, rather than the actual cessation of the breath itself.

A cessation of determinate or volitive activity in speech, body, or thought can be a wonderful thing, yet sitting down to experience such a thing is fraught with peril. So, for example, Shunryu Suzuki admonished Blanche Hartman: "Don't ever think that you can sit zazen! That's a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen!"

 

(from Zazen Notes, here)

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Mind is mindfulness,

Mindfulness is mind!

 

 

[lifeaftercheckmate]

On 11/4/2017 at 10:02 AM, Gunther said:

Suppose:

There is only one mind

The concious presence

The field of awareness

Every thing appears/disappears in it

If you say it's all real, that's ok

If you say it's all unreal, that's ok

If you think some things are real/right and others are unreal/wrong😀😀you are in trouble, that's called confusion.

Peace

 

On 11/4/2017 at 10:02 AM, Gunther said:

Suppose:

There is only one mind

The concious presence

The field of awareness

Every thing appears/disappears in it

If you say it's all real, that's ok

If you say it's all unreal, that's ok

If you think some things are real/right and others are unreal/wrong😀😀you are in trouble, that's called confusion.

Peace

 

I've been looking for the original quote I am thinking of, but I can't find it. It says something like,

 

The world is unreal.

Brahman alone is real.

The world is Brahman.

 

This quote was very impactful for me.

[lifeaftercheckmate]

On 11/19/2017 at 6:31 AM, allinone said:

Awareness is for to cash in what you have accumulated through cultivation.

You won't come aware so easy, when not read about it or someone else point it out to you. Other words you need merit to come aware.

 

when you come aware you won't fall back from that point, you turned permanently wood to ashes.

 

This is beautifully put. May I one day become ash. May the Truth burn away everything from my being that is not Itself.

[Boundlesscostfairy]

Mind is a substance of truth..

 

Perfect alchemy in the motion of communication..

 

Pure realised mind is sublime enlightenment and purest path is willing with sublime intention.. Intent beyond the hills and mountains..

 

A swamp of pure intention passes into a lake of pure beauty which passes as a drop in the pure ocean of hope.. and without disregard for this present moment we are waves of eternity.. in perfect peace!

 

Perfect unity is attained by peace of mind.. like a slack in a rope from now unto eternity and back to the past(amor fati) through perfect memory!

[turtlehermit]

On 1/10/2018 at 11:42 PM, taoguy said:

There is no question that thoughts are linked to the breath. For example, when the mind is restless or sluggish, the breath becomes shallow. When mind is relaxed, breath is deep. When the mind is free from gross-thoughts, the breath becomes subtle. When mind is utterly freed from thoughts and afflictions, breath naturally stops.

 

 

 

The topic of "the breathing stops" is an advanced stage of meditation. It is described in Taoists texts and mentioned in Yogananda's Autobiography where it is called Nirvikalpa Samadhi. This is a real phenomenon that occurs naturally as meditation becomes deeper. The breath slows down and the mind becomes clearer until both reach a stand still. There is sublime peace and fullness . It is described as the stage before one reaches a stasis like period lasting sometimes days. it would be interesting to here some experiences or comments about this topic. Thanks.

Edited February 7, 2018 by turtlehermit