About the eternal discussions on real fights and traditional martial arts

[Nungali]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 10:05 AM, Kempomaster said:

I practice RyuKyu Kempo and Small Circle Jujitsu - learned Kempo from Professor George Dillman and Jujitsu from Professor Wally Jay. I am currently 7th Dan - Grandmaster - also studied diligently private knockouts/breakdowns DVD from Grandmaster Seiyu Oyata. - Ryukyu Kempo . The Okinawan Masters didn't screw around - utilized energy channels and basically we mastered the art of the 2 second knockout.  Go to you tube and look up Oyata Knockouts , there you will see how moves that most people thought " that's the way people use to fight" are actually hidden coded moves that will show you how to attack the energy channels in a given sequence.  That being said - there is power in knowledge - and a peaceful resolution is preferred over hurting someone if at all possible. That is why the few students that I still teach - are required to come to Qigong class - learn to be calm - learn to project calmness to others, learn to shield, in almost every situation violence can be avoided.

 

thanks,

 

Brion

aka Kempomaster

 

Sorry .... you studied privately with Oyata ?   ....   studied  private DVD or studied a DVD privately ?

 

My tradition comes from Hohan Soken ( via Kosei Nishihira /   Ted Lange in Australia  ... see    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nishihira_Kosei )

 

I used to think attack 'energy channels'   too , but after more accurate  assessment , not 'energy channels'  but  'weak points' ( which  can include 'energy channels' but also more .  ( But also that depends on one's definition of energy channels )

 

Even your Sensai Professor affirms the  same ;

 

 

 

You make an interesting point about  "  hidden coded moves that will show you how to attack the energy channels in a given sequence "   , as Dillman points out, quoting Soken's words to him ; " You do beautiful kata, but you don't why . "

 

Now, if  'proper' bunkai is not understood from Kata or 'fighting sequence', how can this be applied ?  Further, if the kata has been changed ( to a 'modern form ' )   so even the moves are not the same, 'application'  moves further into the unknown.

 

Okinawan Karate went through great changes pre / during / since WWII, to 'mask ' a lot of this ; modified as a 'Physical Education' system for school children,   loss of teachers and traditions during war, then the victor Americans asking the just decimated Okinawans to teach them their 'secret deadly fighting arts'  (  )  , then it being turned into a sport .  then the strange 'progress' in USA to 'instant higher dans '  ...( Again in Dillman's own words, quoting Soken to him ; "  How you get 5,  6, 7   Black Belt  ? "  ...  and Dillman confessing, aside, "God ! I hope he doesn't ask me what rank I am . "      ,.  and again, Dillman confessing ;    he (Soken ) said I should come to Okinawa and he would teach it to me ....   :  " But I never did " ?    )   ...   

 

 What made  Hohan Soken different was, he was a traditional Master, left Okinawa before the changes in Karate, for Argentina, and returned after the end of WWII with an older still intact unaffected 'interpretation' .  I don't know if the tradition survived in Argentina or not ?

 

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Nungali

[Nungali]

" That being said - there is power in knowledge - and a peaceful resolution is preferred over hurting someone if at all possible. That is why the few students that I still teach - are required to come to Qigong class - learn to be calm - learn to project calmness to others, learn to shield, in almost every situation violence can be avoided.  "

 

PS .  Well done on this bit too .   I used to be an orderly in a public hospital , all types of  people ( some HUGE ) could come into emergency, confused, agro, drunk, drugged , violent ... my job to maintain order but ; in all situations violence must be avoided .   A good exercise / practice in 'using your nut '  (and don't mean a head but   )   and  'energy reception and projection'  .  My 'tactics' worked well as in 10 years only 3 or 4 occasions I had to 'cross the line' .

[Kempomaster]

Quick explanation- my rank of 7th Dan is from Dillman - most of certificates are signed by Professor Wally Jay, Professor Remy Presas (while he was still alive).  The private DVD was one that was provided to Professor Dillman by Master Oyata as it was my understanding that Hohan Soken had asked Master Oyata to work with Master Dillman which he did for some time and he provided him with this DVD that included all the Ryukyu Kempo kata's with many breakdowns - actually done on volunteers, some wearing helmets to protect their heads when they hit the ground.  Needless to say in addition to studying with Professor Dillman - Ryukyu Kempo I spent thousands of hours studying how Master Oyata performed the Kata and breakdowns.  Plus, I was usually Professor Wally Jay's crash dummy when he came to town - benefit of which - I really learned how to reproduce the hold like Professor did it.  I still teach Ryukyu Kempo - being to senior student of Grandmaster William Higginbotham - but - have been investing more time in Stillness Movement Qigong as I assist Michael Lomax in teaching his seminars. There is real power in healing and calmness.

 

thanks,

 

Brion

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Kempomaster said:

Quick explanation- my rank of 7th Dan is from Dillman - most of certificates are signed by Professor Wally Jay, Professor Remy Presas (while he was still alive).  The private DVD was one that was provided to Professor Dillman by Master Oyata as it was my understanding that Hohan Soken had asked Master Oyata to work with Master Dillman which he did for some time and he provided him with this DVD that included all the Ryukyu Kempo kata's with many breakdowns - actually done on volunteers, some wearing helmets to protect their heads when they hit the ground.  Needless to say in addition to studying with Professor Dillman - Ryukyu Kempo I spent thousands of hours studying how Master Oyata performed the Kata and breakdowns.  Plus, I was usually Professor Wally Jay's crash dummy when he came to town - benefit of which - I really learned how to reproduce the hold like Professor did it.  I still teach Ryukyu Kempo - being to senior student of Grandmaster William Higginbotham - but - have been investing more time in Stillness Movement Qigong as I assist Michael Lomax in teaching his seminars. There is real power in healing and calmness.

 

thanks,

 

Brion

 

 

Oh ... it was a privately made video for private viewing , I get it now .  You have been very fortunate, I have some of those but from Kosei Nishihira ,  Most of the old Soken ones have been put on line. Although, who knows what is out there ?

 

I have the last one from Mr Nishihira before he died , unfortunately, it was made by a  young woman ( a friend  of a student who happened to be in Okinawa for other reasons  ) who knew neither  Okinawan, Japanese or any Martial Arts .  When  He tried to demonstrate some things with her as her camera was  filming she ..... well, lets say she wasn't a very good ' crash dummy' .

 

Do you have a 'Crane form' ; Hakatsuru  ?   

[9th]

Guns are used in real fights.  

 

Are guns used in traditional martial arts?

 

So, considering the context of these vectors... it seems like it might depend on the tradition in question.

[windwalker]

58 minutes ago, 9th said:

Guns are used in real fights.  

 

Are guns used in traditional martial arts?

 

So, considering the context of these vectors... it seems like it might depend on the tradition in question.

 

 

change the word gun to weapons, and one should see its the same. 

Sun Tzu, wrote the art of war, The US uses military doctrine  

is there a difference?

 

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by windwalker

[9th]

2 hours ago, windwalker said:

Sun Tzu, wrote the art of war, The US uses military doctrine  

is there a difference?

 

Yeh but do you know whose ancient military tactics the US actually uses still to this day?

[Michael Sternbach]

16 hours ago, Kempomaster said:

Quick explanation- my rank of 7th Dan is from Dillman - most of certificates are signed by Professor Wally Jay, Professor Remy Presas (while he was still alive).  The private DVD was one that was provided to Professor Dillman by Master Oyata as it was my understanding that Hohan Soken had asked Master Oyata to work with Master Dillman which he did for some time and he provided him with this DVD that included all the Ryukyu Kempo kata's with many breakdowns - actually done on volunteers, some wearing helmets to protect their heads when they hit the ground.  Needless to say in addition to studying with Professor Dillman - Ryukyu Kempo I spent thousands of hours studying how Master Oyata performed the Kata and breakdowns.  Plus, I was usually Professor Wally Jay's crash dummy when he came to town - benefit of which - I really learned how to reproduce the hold like Professor did it.  I still teach Ryukyu Kempo - being to senior student of Grandmaster William Higginbotham - but - have been investing more time in Stillness Movement Qigong as I assist Michael Lomax in teaching his seminars. There is real power in healing and calmness.

 

thanks,

 

Brion

 

Hi Brion

 

That's very interesting. My primary martial art is American Kenpo, which I am studying with a direct student of Mr. Parker's. Also, based on my other martial arts experiences, I am integrating many Kyusho-jitsu/Dim-mak strikes into my personal expression of Kenpo, drawing mostly from information provided by George Dillman and Erle Montaigue. - BTW, I consider these two martial artists the real pioneers in teaching the West vital point striking; others chimed in, but these two have paved the way.

 

 

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, 9th said:

Guns are used in real fights.  

 

Are guns used in traditional martial arts?

 

So, considering the context of these vectors... it seems like it might depend on the tradition in question.

 

 

Not 'traditional'  but perhaps   ' inevitable '  ;

 

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

11 hours ago, 9th said:

Guns are used in real fights.  

 

Are guns used in traditional martial arts?

 

So, considering the context of these vectors... it seems like it might depend on the tradition in question.

 

The late Ed Parker was thinking of adding a gun form to the program after he had introduced a club and a knife form, however, this idea was never realized.

[Michael Sternbach]

8 hours ago, 9th said:

 

Yeh but do you know whose ancient military tactics the US actually uses still to this day?

 

Not The Art of War anyway, that's why they lost the Vietnam war, said Marblehead.

[Nungali]

33 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

The late Ed Parker was thinking of adding a gun form to the program after he had introduced a club and a knife form, however, this idea was never realized.

 

Krav Magra   uses hand gun and rifle in MA training.    Israeli guy in our club that did it said his instructor also favoured sai as it built up wrist and forearm ... for gun use.

 

 

But does KM teach you to use a gun within the others hand range  ? 

 

 

Come on guys !      Instructor I was teaching some kata to  had weapons and also handguns on weapons rack ... I had to  ... I just had to ;

 

" Don't tell me you teach defence against a hand gun ? "

 

Him; " Sure, take it up and I show you . " 

 

So I did and immediately pointed it at him from a distance " If you move; I'll drill ya, now hand over your wallet ! "  He takes it out and goes to hand it to me  " Stray put and drop it on the floor ."  He does. 
 

" Now walk away ."    But he says    " Doesn't matter, only $20 in it . "

 

Me ;  " Oh a smart arse eh ? "   So I pointed the gun at his kneecap and said  "  Bang !  "     

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Nungali

[windwalker]

9 hours ago, 9th said:

 

Yeh but do you know whose ancient military tactics the US actually uses still to this day?

 

Ya maybe I might, having retied from the military sun tzu along with many others is recommended reading 

for some of the leadership schools they have. 

[windwalker]

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Not The Art of War anyway, that's why they lost the Vietnam war, said Marblehead.

 

 

One should understand the difference between military decisions made by soldiers and those made and directed by the civilians that control and lead them.  

Edited November 14, 2017 by windwalker

[Kempomaster]

My Hawaiian Kempo teacher - Master David Gonzalez - West Coast Fighting Machine received his 7th Dan from Ed Parker.  We utilized his Kempo fighting style for speed and sparring and I still teach this to students for the speed factor.  However, I have switched to the Ryukyu Kempo system as all the real stuff comes from the Kata's - one just has to know how to decipher the hidden material in them.

 

Brion

[Kempomaster]

I now how a web page that includes information on qigong and some info on martial arts. I will be expanding as I go and linking it to others - such as it is Linked to Michael Lomax's website - Grandmaster/lineage holder of Stillness-Movement Qigong and I will probably link it to my Martial Arts instructor - Will Higginbotham 9th Dan Ryukyu Kempo.

 

go to:  www.Spiritslightqigong.com

 

thanks,

 

Brion

[Mig]

Wasn't Dillman debunked?

 

[Nungali]

He totally embarrassed himself;  tongue in mouth in a certain position, one toe up the other down, etc .  ... 'neutralises it' . ....  when 'caught out' .

 

Its part of that 'thing'   , to do with  ..... 'demonstrations' .

 

And who are all the complacent compliers who 'make it happen' ?   The guy who couldn't 'knock out' that lady, so then he gave her a smack upside the head ( that 'knocked out'  his   'students ' ), even that didnt knock her out, she just turned to everyone; "He just hit me in the head ! "   And the guy storms off.

 

Ohhhh   people !   What are you  doing ! 

 

Apparently there is a study out that compares these guys, and their 'demonstratees'  ( the students that get knocked out and the 'master' who does the 'magical knockouts' )  with the  evangelical bullies and their swooners ... like Benny and his magic coat

 

 

 

I have not come across it yet, but it would make an interesting read.

 

Here it is in a nutshell;

 

" I was actually a Dillman student back in the early 90's! Back then he taught some very practical and very lethal knockout/incapacitation methods by physically manipulating pressure points, methods which actually worked and had some proven science behind them. How he got to this level of crazy though, who knows."

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/cringe/comments/2wmjmt/phony_karate_master_no_touch_ko_debunked/

[Michael Sternbach]

11 hours ago, Mig said:

Wasn't Dillman debunked?

 

 

Things are not as simple as they seem. Much of Dillman's material (books and videos) is well researched and valuable. He eventually did take his claims a little too far  though, which I am pretty sure he believed himself. Unlike most other "masters", he and some of his seniors did not shy away from public demonstrations on outsiders, which is basically commendable. Some of this didn't work out - and the subsequent criticism was devastating. When he and some of his students simply didn't factor in that the results wouldn't be as predictable as they thought they would be.

 

The video assumes that there may be hypnotic induction involved in some so-called "chi knockouts." That statement is kind of funny, because how do we know how hypnosis works? Hypnotism started with Mesmerism, which involves stroking over the subject's body, and chi most likely plays a role here too.

 

Much of what is taught as Dim Mak/Kyusho-jitsu is viable, if applied properly. Does this mean that no-touch/light-touch knockouts work on anybody under any circumstances? No. But neither does a kick to the groin. On the other hand, I have personally incapacitated people with light strikes on some occasions, especially to the solar plexus.

 

Gichin Funakoshi in his Karate-do Kyohan got it right: A technique will be more effective if it is hitting a vital point than it would be otherwise. However, he recommended to put all of one's power into such a strike in case of a self-defence situation. He also empasized that it works best when taking the aggressor by surprise. It's true that the hit that knocks you down is often the one you didn't see coming.

[Mig]

5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Things are not as simple as they seem. Much of Dillman's material (books and videos) is well researched and valuable. He eventually did take his claims a little too far  though, which I am pretty sure he believed himself. Unlike most other "masters", he and some of his seniors did not shy away from public demonstrations on outsiders, which is basically commendable. Some of this didn't work out - and the subsequent criticism was devastating. When he and some of his students simply didn't factor in that the results wouldn't be as predictable as they thought they would be.

 

The video assumes that there may be hypnotic induction involved in some so-called "chi knockouts." That statement is kind of funny, because how do we know how hypnosis works? Hypnotism started with Mesmerism, which involves stroking over the subject's body, and chi most likely plays a role here too.

 

Much of what is taught as Dim Mak/Kyusho-jitsu is viable, if applied properly. Does this mean that no-touch/light-touch knockouts work on anybody under any circumstances? No. But neither does a kick to the groin. On the other hand, I have personally incapacitated people with light strikes on some occasions, especially to the solar plexus.

 

Gichin Funakoshi in his Karate-do Kyohan got it right: A technique will be more effective if it is hitting a vital point than it would be otherwise. However, he recommended to put all of one's power into such a strike in case of a self-defence situation. He also empasized that it works best when taking the aggressor by surprise. It's true that the hit that knocks you down is often the one you didn't see coming.

There is truth about vital points or trigger points however in real life or street fight or survival fighting I am pretty sure those touch of death don't work. If the individual doesn't move I am pretty sure you can do some harm. Humans are just another moving energy.

[Nungali]

That touch of death crap didnt start until the bastardized form became pop in USA and with marketing.

 

Note what Dillman said in his first encounter with the techniques from Hohan Soken, he first 'demonstrated' it during 'Kumite' , not by Soken getting Dillman to stand there and then walloping him.

 

All Soken did was 'sting' him a bit, to show what the kata techniques were supposed to be representing.

 

From what I have learnt ( which comes from one of Soken's closest students) it works this way ;

 

Its all about ma'ai and tai sebaki ( and that includes footwork) ; 

 

1.   Evade and sting / 'distract' (while moving to an advantageous position) .

2.   'Weaken', strike / lock /  throw  / take down.

3.   'Finish'   ('death blow' ) .

 

Of course 1. can finish it, or in some unfortunate cases cause death. 

 

In the earlier film clip Dilman quoted Soken as saying  " We never knew you were going start  karate   schools with hundreds of students "  ( while not even understanding what they were doing ) ..... imagine what he would have thought of 'touch of death' .

 

 

[Mudfoot]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

In the earlier film clip " We never knew you were going start  karate   schools with hundreds of students "  

I am sure most asian teachers today are aware of the risc of their Western students filming themselves on their hotel room after class, and having a contract with their editor before sitting on the plane home. 

 

Annoying for them, interesting books for the rest of us. 

[Maddie]

Here is my take on this as having practiced both traditional and mma in the past. 

 

First if feel like what a lot of people loose sight of is what MMA stands for. It is a mixture of Martial arts, and not a martial art in and of itself, though now days maybe it could be considered one.

 

Second what did mma show us? The early days of the UFC were like a laboratory that showed us what worked and what didn't. The biggest thing it showed us is that if you have an excellent striking game and no ground game you are toast. Now actually this isn't a revelation because traditionally kung fu that was meant for the battle field had the same concept. You learned the various striking forms and chin na or wrestling. So basically the UFC was just a rediscovery of lost knowledge.

 

Third it's not really about which style is better but how you train. One reason a western boxer is probably going to dominate a kung fu boxer is not because there is any intrinsic superiority to western boxing over kung fu boxing. The reason is because of how they train. The western boxer is going to spar with face contact which is training realistically for what you are going to do which is fight. Just doing forms (which is great for other purposes and I'll get to that in a second) is not going to prepare you to fight. Light sparing is not going to prepare you for full contact. If you're going to fight full contact, then that is how you need to train.

 

Fourth how did it get this way? Well while battlefield kung fu in it's day was very effective on the battlefield the principles that made it effective such as learning to circulate ones qi well through the meridians for strikes also turned out to be very beneficial to health and well being. Basically the kung fu forms (or karate, or you fill in the blank) were a type of qigong form and people realized that learning these forms could and would make them healthier and happier people. So regular people who wanted themselves and their children to be healthy or heal an illness learned the forms for health not for killing or injuring and this is what predominately got passed on. This is why realistic sparring was removed. This is why a mixture of techniques was removed (why do I need to learn to grapple if this stand up form I'm doing now already makes me healthy?) 

 

In conclusion, what happened was that people were basically learning hard qigong for their health and forgot that the martial aspect was mostly removed and then wanted to take this health system and put it up against an actual fighting system and were quite disappointed. So if you want to fight, learn to fight, which means have a well balanced game, realistic striking (full contact including face contact), a ground game, ect... There are people from the traditional arts that do this like Lyoto Machida. If you simply want health and wellbeing then please by all means continue your martial art, just realize what it is for what it is, and that's great. 

[Nungali]

'Master Wong' ... on the ground

 

 

 

 

(  .... in case you dont know who Master Wong is .....        ; 

 

Spoiler