About the eternal discussions on real fights and traditional martial arts

[oranssi]

What is a real fight? Is it for defense? Is it to kill? Is it against a MMA practitioner? Someone knowledgeable and experienced or someone not? Who wants to kill? Do I know if he or she wants to kill? What is the situation? Are they many or is it just me? Is it being healthy a real fight? Is it being happy a real fight? What is a real fight? Do I fight biting the neck? Or scratching the eyes? Do I fight with rules? Why would I fight with rules? Am I conditioned to use rules? Where does a real fight start? Does it start with the psyche and words? With the behavioral language and my own emotions?

 

What is a real fight? Must it be a physical confrontation? Do I need physical confrontation? Does a real winner ever let that happen? If it does happen have I lost? If it does happen how do I act? Not fight, but act. What is a real fight, if not everything I do in my life? But I prefer not to say what is a real fight. Instead, I ask the questions and act upon the mystery. A real fight is a real act.

Edited November 5, 2017 by oranssi

[Emera]

Its a different world nowadays, run by the same rules. Might is right. Except now, you can be punished for getting into a fight by the police. Any wicked intent is better left to the shadows.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Emera

[9th]

On 11/5/2017 at 5:40 AM, oranssi said:

What is a real fight? Is it for defense? Is it to kill? Is it against a MMA practitioner? Someone knowledgeable and experienced or someone not? Who wants to kill? Do I know if he or she wants to kill? What is the situation? Are they many or is it just me? Is it being healthy a real fight? Is it being happy a real fight? What is a real fight? Do I fight biting the neck? Or scratching the eyes? Do I fight with rules? Why would I fight with rules? Am I conditioned to use rules? Where does a real fight start? Does it start with the psyche and words? With the behavioral language and my own emotions?

 

What is a real fight? Must it be a physical confrontation? Do I need physical confrontation? Does a real winner ever let that happen? If it does happen have I lost? If it does happen how do I act? Not fight, but act. What is a real fight, if not everything I do in my life? But I prefer not to say what is a real fight. Instead, I ask the questions and act upon the mystery. A real fight is a real act.

 

 

Who cares?

[Nungali]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:40 PM, oranssi said:

What is a real fight? Is it for defense? Is it to kill? Is it against a MMA practitioner? Someone knowledgeable and experienced or someone not? Who wants to kill? Do I know if he or she wants to kill? What is the situation? Are they many or is it just me? Is it being healthy a real fight? Is it being happy a real fight? What is a real fight? Do I fight biting the neck? Or scratching the eyes? Do I fight with rules? Why would I fight with rules? Am I conditioned to use rules? Where does a real fight start? Does it start with the psyche and words? With the behavioral language and my own emotions?

 

What is a real fight? Must it be a physical confrontation? Do I need physical confrontation? Does a real winner ever let that happen? If it does happen have I lost? If it does happen how do I act? Not fight, but act. What is a real fight, if not everything I do in my life? But I prefer not to say what is a real fight. Instead, I ask the questions and act upon the mystery. A real fight is a real act.

 

Considering your title, the answer lies in the context you constructed.

 

What is a martial art ?  Are we only considering the pop western forms of Kung Fu, Karate etc. ?

 

Is not 'The Art of War ' a 'martial art '  .... tactics ....   strategy   ? 

 

The answer is;    'it all depends'   eg .

 

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:40 PM, oranssi said:

What is a real fight? Is it for defense?

 

It can be . in Okinawan MA , for the highest class , yes, in 'temple style' ; to defend the King.

 

In 'family style' , to protect the parents, family home and  self

 

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:40 PM, oranssi said:

 Is it to kill? Is it against a MMA practitioner?

 

 Depends on circumstances, of course.

 

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:40 PM, oranssi said:

 

Someone knowledgeable and experienced or someone not? Who wants to kill? Do I know if he or she wants to kill? What is the situation? Are they many or is it just me? Is it being healthy a real fight? Is it being happy a real fight? What is a real fight?

 

That's right .....  'depends' .

 

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:40 PM, oranssi said:

 

Do I fight biting the neck? Or scratching the eyes? Do I fight with rules? Why would I fight with rules? Am I conditioned to use rules? Where does a real fight start? Does it start with the psyche and words? With the behavioral language and my own emotions?

 

'weakest points' are off the score card in sports MA .  Its a sport .   I saw some Malaysian style training, in spar and even bunkai they wore eye protection .... most of their techniques started with an attack at the eyes.

 

In practicing sports MA you might get conditioned to fight by rules .  

 

But then you go onto a broader meaning of fight  ... there is a distinction .

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fight

 

 

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:40 PM, oranssi said:

 

What is a real fight? Must it be a physical confrontation? Do I need physical confrontation? Does a real winner ever let that happen? If it does happen have I lost? If it does happen how do I act? Not fight, but act. What is a real fight, if not everything I do in my life? But I prefer not to say what is a real fight. Instead, I ask the questions and act upon the mystery. A real fight is a real act.

 

I can tell you what it  isn't in MA   ;    a 'demo'  , a  bunkai , a technique ....

 

Some martial arts are a formal exercise  and their techniques look 'undynamic' and unrealistic .

 

Think of making a cup of tea   and performing the Japanese tea ceremony . In this , the 'kata'  and the moves are like the ritual ceremony .....   MMA is still a sport  but closer to a ' real  fight situation. ' ... often we can see  'formal' MA techniques from Karate ( and other MAs of course )  'delivered' in a more 'real' and dynamic situation

 

 

 

The 'original' Okinawan Martial Art was termed wrestling ... for them anything went  ( I have seen old images of Okinawan wrestling, in one, a guy is behind and to the side of another, he has his hand on the others head and his fingers are in his eye sockets pulling his head back, with the other hand he has gripped his throat and squeezing it .

 

One';Master' , (in the old days) claimed  he beat another Master in a 'fight'   ... he waited up in a tree until the other walked past, and jumped down on him breaking his back .   

 

[SeekerOfHealing]

Martials arts are for utilizing Qi into power. That's why they are called like that.

 

MMA, Muay Thai and other related are 100% physical and mental. there is no Qi there. add good internal system with muay thai or other MMA system and you are machine.

[windwalker]

2 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

Martials arts are for utilizing Qi into power. That's why they are called like that.

 

MMA, Muay Thai and other related are 100% physical and mental. there is no Qi there. add good internal system with muay thai or other MMA system and you are machine.

 

Can you point to where this has been demonstrated and shown to be true.  

[Fa Xin]

5 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

Martials arts are for utilizing Qi into power. That's why they are called like that.

 

MMA, Muay Thai and other related are 100% physical and mental. there is no Qi there. add good internal system with muay thai or other MMA system and you are machine.

There’s qi in everything we do, everything everyone does. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Fa Xin

[SeekerOfHealing]

5 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

There’s qi in everything we do, everything everyone does. 

 

Nope. 

 

7 hours ago, windwalker said:

 

Can you point to where this has been demonstrated and shown to be true.  

 

My teacher uses that. 

[windwalker]

 

1 hour ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

Quote

 

 6 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

There’s qi in everything we do, everything everyone does

 

 

 

Nope. 

 

Quote

SeekerOfHealing: My teacher uses that. 

 

lets try again.  

 

can you provide any examples of it...where one is a machine as you've stated.

 

this is my teacher it does not address the OP question but does show certain skill sets 

in use.  How there'er used is another question...

 

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2016/07/02/a-day-in-the-park/

Edited November 7, 2017 by windwalker

[Andrei]

There is only one single reason people fight since immemorial times and is not for belts or titles:

 

 

 

[Mudfoot]

To impress women? 

[SeekerOfHealing]

9 hours ago, windwalker said:

 

 

 

lets try again.  

 

can you provide any examples of it...where one is a machine as you've stated.

 

this is my teacher it does not address the OP question but does show certain skill sets 

in use.  How there'er used is another question...

 

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2016/07/02/a-day-in-the-park/

 

What kind of examples do you want? In Flying Phoniex thread you have plenty examples about martial arts Qi which can kill. Even neidan practitioner can kill you with just a intent or look. 

[Nungali]

 

'Road rage'  incident .

 

***  Warning -  violent behaviour  ***

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

What kind of examples do you want? In Flying Phoniex thread you have plenty examples about martial arts Qi which can kill. Even neidan practitioner can kill you with just a intent or look. 

 

 

 

I fought a guy with those Qi 'mystic powers once .....  he didn't go very good .... actually he ran off like a little boy who wet his pants.  

 

Here how it went ; he was a  loudmouth claimer of many things, a new BF of an old long time friend of mine. He claimed Martial arts expertise and had a teacher with 'chi powers'  who he said " Could come up here and put you on your arse without even touching you . "  I smiled.  We talked, he became interested , I offered, " Let's have a friendly and see what happens .  ... we both  have no need to hurt each other , No ? "  He agreed, yes lets have a friendly and no we wont hurt each other. he danced around and did nothing except some silly hand waving and magical passes. As soon as he realised that wasn't going to work he engaged a bit, at one time he tried a flurry of techniques so I gave him a whip kick with my big toe in the testicles .

 

He stopped , looked aghast and unbelieving ;  " You just kicked me in the balls ! "

 

" Yes, I know , "

 

' But .... but .... it didn't hurt. "

 

" That's right, I stopped just as my toe touched them . "

 

" What ?   While we were clashing and moving about, you think you  can  have that much control to make that safe? "

 

" No .... I did have that much control and it was safe ."

 

That was too much for him ... his 'sacred testicles' had been threatened, he was outa there !  ( Yes, he was one of those semen obsessed 'Daoists'  )   " No way, that's enough for me ..." and started to leave . ) 

 

" And when you come back, bring your teacher ... we can play together, he can use his mystic Qi powers and I will be going for his nuts eyes and kneecaps ."

 

And then he goes :  "That was uncalled for ! "

 

" Dude, I was minding my own business and you started ranting about your magic teacher ... that would come up here ... to my place .... and 'put me on my arse' . "

 

 

Do we have to put up yet another of those vids where  Chi master gets his arse kicked ?

 

I would be happy to see one of the opposite ... anyone got a clip of a chi master butting a big MMA guy on his arse with 'chi'

 

.... waiting  ......  

 

.....

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Mudfoot said:

To impress women? 

 

Does that work ?

 

I find they are more impressed by an easy going nature and a sense of humour .

 

I supposed that was because they feel slightly more comfortable with that ... a laughing happy guy is less likely to turn on you .

 

( Maybe your answer should be   ' because they think it impresses women '  ?

[thelerner]

It's good to have options.. know how to throw a punch and get out of the way of one.  As a hobby martial arts can be fascinating; great lessons in strength, endurance, skill..honor, awareness.. a whole myriad.  Yet, security is an illusion.  It's a world with knives, guns, sucker punches etc., and despite comic book endings, we are all quite vulnerable. 

 

I encourage people to take up a martial art but beware of the illusions of grandeur and false pride that can come with them.  As easily as an MMA takes down a 'spiritual' fighter, so does a punk with $50 gun take down an MMA fighter, perhaps easier. 

 

Still, we need to be aware, not afraid.  Have options, live skillfully and let the universe decide. 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2017 by thelerner

[SeekerOfHealing]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

I fought a guy with those Qi 'mystic powers once .....  he didn't go very good .... actually he ran off like a little boy who wet his pants.  

 

Here how it went ; he was a  loudmouth claimer of many things, a new BF of an old long time friend of mine. He claimed Martial arts expertise and had a teacher with 'chi powers'  who he said " Could come up here and put you on your arse without even touching you . "  I smiled.  We talked, he became interested , I offered, " Let's have a friendly and see what happens .  ... we both  have no need to hurt each other , No ? "  He agreed, yes lets have a friendly and no we wont hurt each other. he danced around and did nothing except some silly hand waving and magical passes. As soon as he realised that wasn't going to work he engaged a bit, at one time he tried a flurry of techniques so I gave him a whip kick with my big toe in the testicles .

 

He stopped , looked aghast and unbelieving ;  " You just kicked me in the balls ! "

 

" Yes, I know , "

 

' But .... but .... it didn't hurt. "

 

" That's right, I stopped just as my toe touched them . "

 

" What ?   While we were clashing and moving about, you think you  can  have that much control to make that safe? "

 

" No .... I did have that much control and it was safe ."

 

That was too much for him ... his 'sacred testicles' had been threatened, he was outa there !  ( Yes, he was one of those semen obsessed 'Daoists'  )   " No way, that's enough for me ..." and started to leave . ) 

 

" And when you come back, bring your teacher ... we can play together, he can use his mystic Qi powers and I will be going for his nuts eyes and kneecaps ."

 

And then he goes :  "That was uncalled for ! "

 

" Dude, I was minding my own business and you started ranting about your magic teacher ... that would come up here ... to my place .... and 'put me on my arse' . "

 

 

Do we have to put up yet another of those vids where  Chi master gets his arse kicked ?

 

I would be happy to see one of the opposite ... anyone got a clip of a chi master butting a big MMA guy on his arse with 'chi'

 

.... waiting  ......  

 

.....

 

You do not know what you are talking about. There are masters like this but they are rare as it's need years and hard work to cultivate to that levels. 

 

The Qi in the fights are for killing you, not to make playful match and competition tho. 

 

There are various methods, ways and things related to this practice. Just because you met the hoax it does not mean that everything now is hoax. Qigong works, so there are special arts of neigong and qigong for martial arts. Most I know are to kill you, not just to enhance fighters. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[Mudfoot]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Does that work ?

 

I find they are more impressed by an easy going nature and a sense of humour .

 

I supposed that was because they feel slightly more comfortable with that ... a laughing happy guy is less likely to turn on you .

 

( Maybe your answer should be   ' because they think it impresses women '  ?

Resource Holding Potential is a mating factor in many species. 

It is not the same as aggression though. 

 

That was why the? ended the sentence,  not an !.

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

You do not know what you are talking about. There are masters like this but they are rare as it's need years and hard work to cultivate to that levels. 

 

You do not know what you are talking about    

 

You just want this to be true .... its a   belief ... that has never been demonstrated

 

19 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

The Qi in the fights are for killing you, not to make playful match and competition tho. 

 

killing  me  eh  ?    there are those personal threats from those that believe in chi masters  ... again 

 

 

 

19 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

There are various methods, ways and things related to this practice. Just because you met the hoax it does not mean that everything now is hoax. Qigong works, so there are special arts of neigong and qigong for martial arts. Most I know are to kill you, not just to enhance fighters. 

 

 

Do we have to put up yet another of those vids where  Chi master gets his arse kicked ?

 

I would be happy to see one of the opposite ... anyone got a clip of a chi master butting a big MMA guy on his arse with 'chi'

 

.... waiting  ......  

 

[SeekerOfHealing]

Can you understand that no master will go and use this to anybody just to prove anything? even slight use of martial art Qi can destroy harmony between five zhang fu which can create diseases in the couple days of using this. 

 

If I call myself bunny hopper and say I will beat up MMA figher and lose this will make bunny hoppers fake?

 

Use logic please. There are many master "doing" miracles because of high kung fu. Most of guys are too lazy to practice to that level and just want to talk about titles. 

 

If martial art qigong do not work then any qigong would not work. Those methods are secret. Those methods for example in longmen pai are deadly, but they are practicing they ass off not talk on forums. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by SeekerOfHealing

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

Can you understand that no master will go and use this to anybody just to prove anything?

 

i understand that ^  is one of    ' the oldest excuses in the book. ' 

 

5 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

 

even slight use of martial art Qi can destroy harmony between five zhang fu which can create diseases in the couple days of using this. 

 

If I call myself bunny hopper and say I will beat up MMA figher and lose this will make bunny hoppers fake?

 

 

5 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

Use logic please. There are many master "doing" miracles because of high kung fu. Most of guys are too lazy to practice to that level and just want to talk about titles. 

 

'Miracles'   eh  ?   Many of them eh ?

 

Should not be too hard to post a vid of one then ?

 

Allow me ;

 

 

 

5 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

If martial art qigong do not work then any qigong would not work. Those methods are secret. Those methods for example in longmen pai are deadly, but they are practicing they ass off not talk on forums. 

 

Longman pai  ?

 

I should have known .... 

[SeekerOfHealing]

You are too low level to prove anything. Try practice on your own and you will see. Kids need to believe Santa so believe what you believe till you grow up.

[rex]

On 05/11/2017 at 10:40 AM, oranssi said:

What is a real fight? Is it for defense? Is it to kill? Is it against a MMA practitioner? Someone knowledgeable and experienced or someone not? Who wants to kill? Do I know if he or she wants to kill? What is the situation? Are they many or is it just me? Is it being healthy a real fight? Is it being happy a real fight? What is a real fight? Do I fight biting the neck? Or scratching the eyes? Do I fight with rules? Why would I fight with rules? Am I conditioned to use rules? Where does a real fight start? Does it start with the psyche and words? With the behavioral language and my own emotions?

 

What is a real fight? Must it be a physical confrontation? Do I need physical confrontation? Does a real winner ever let that happen? If it does happen have I lost? If it does happen how do I act? Not fight, but act. What is a real fight, if not everything I do in my life? But I prefer not to say what is a real fight. Instead, I ask the questions and act upon the mystery. A real fight is a real act.

This is worth checking out along with Rory Miller's stuff listed in what others customers bought:

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Black-Book-Violence-Fighting/dp/1594391297/

 

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by rex
Tpyo

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

You are too low level to prove anything.

 

Another tactic ; cant meet the challenge so tries the ' you are too inexperienced to engage with me  '       

 

 

 

10 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

 

 

Try practice on your own and you will see.

 

Practice on my own ?  I have been practicing on my own and with other people for  over 40 years .  I have used 'ki' or 'chi' or whatever you want to call it continually. I have even instructed a group of 60 people at one time and pulled a slight built nervous woman out the front of that group, and after a simple quick coaching got her to demonstrate the 'immovable body'  against two big muscly guys that cou8ld not lift her , in front of the gaping and astounded group  ( but this was with contact .... ie. they were grabbing her arms as they tried to lift her. )  I have put people on their arse or thrown them across the mat  ' with one finger '  ( well, that's what it looks like ) ... but there is always some  'contact' .  So don't give me this 'at a distance' rubbish !

 

And don't tell me to 'practice'  ....   son .     You  go get some experience up your belt ; cross train , go up against some real people of different traditions , try your 'magic chi passes' and see where it gets you .  Eventually you might figure out what is really going on.

 

10 hours ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

 

 

Kids need to believe Santa so believe what you believe till you grow up.

 

 

You are now making even less sense ;    I am the one not believing in 'Santa '  - You are the one believing in 'Santa' .

 

Who needs to 'grow up ' here ?   

[Kempomaster]

I practice RyuKyu Kempo and Small Circle Jujitsu - learned Kempo from Professor George Dillman and Jujitsu from Professor Wally Jay. I am currently 7th Dan - Grandmaster - also studied diligently private knockouts/breakdowns DVD from Grandmaster Seiyu Oyata. - Ryukyu Kempo . The Okinawan Masters didn't screw around - utilized energy channels and basically we mastered the art of the 2 second knockout.  Go to you tube and look up Oyata Knockouts , there you will see how moves that most people thought " that's the way people use to fight" are actually hidden coded moves that will show you how to attack the energy channels in a given sequence.  That being said - there is power in knowledge - and a peaceful resolution is preferred over hurting someone if at all possible. That is why the few students that I still teach - are required to come to Qigong class - learn to be calm - learn to project calmness to others, learn to shield, in almost every situation violence can be avoided.

 

thanks,

 

Brion

aka Kempomaster