Golden Flower Meditation

[non-doer]

As for Golden Flower Meditation, as suggested by J.J. Semple, you do it at the beginning by the 4:4:4:4 diaphragmatic breathing activity, breathing in, holding it, breathing out, holding it, doing for 100 days, and then you start the backwards circular movement.

 

However, what I found in one book (Taoist Meditation) translated by Thomas Cleary:

 

"Some concentrate attention on the breathing, like pumping a bellows. Some focus their minds on counting breaths, trying to take energy in without letting it out. There are a number of such patterns. They can cause dizziness, deafness, reddening of the eyes, distention of the abdomen, pain in the tendons and bones, mental fogginess, nocturnal emissions, and ocher symptoms."

p.125 

 

So I'm confused now, is it meant that the J.J. Semple method is bad for you? Anyone tried it?

 

 

Please help if you have experience or knowledge, and I would be very thankful.

Edited November 9, 2017 by non-doer

[SeekerOfHealing]

Original breath is not the breath you are inhaling or exhaling. If you practice with that then you practice just qigong. 

[non-doer]

4 minutes ago, SeekerOfHealing said:

Original breath is not the breath you are inhaling or exhaling. If you practice with that then you practice just qigong. 

 

Could you expand please on the correct way of doing it?
Because Semple's method is that you need to do this inhalation exhalation daily (100 days) until you feel a breath of energy in the stomach that his the character of direction. AND THEN you start the backwards method by asking it to change directions. This way succeeded for him in awakening Kundalini.

Do you have experience in the Golden Flower meditation yourself?

[SeekerOfHealing]

Of course. I will be making commentary for it. None you will find on internet or in books are right in practice really. 

 

Kundalini got nothing to do with golden glower. They are people who mixed up things and messed things up with their own day dreaming. 

[rainbowvein]

In my initial post, I was not so gentle. My apologies. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by rainbowvein

[Jetsun]

2 hours ago, rainbowvein said:

Throw that book away.

 

Which one, Semple or Cleary ?

[rainbowvein]

<3

Edited January 12, 2018 by rainbowvein

[rainbowvein]

Wang Liping has a version too?

 

How is it more practical?

[rainbowvein]

5 hours ago, non-doer said:

I'm confused now

 

 

Sorry if I caused you confusion.

 

Diaphragmatic breathing, while fun, won't elevate your spiritual path. I share this with you from from my own experience.

 

Why not just breathe naturally?  

Edited November 9, 2017 by rainbowvein

[rainbowvein]

ok.

 

You are referring to this?

[rainbowvein]

oh right. i remember bums discussing that years ago.

[lifeforce]

The Secret of the Golden Flower is NOT an energy circulation exercise. The Wilhelm version, which JJ Semple followed, is severely flawed.

Cleary's translation is superb.

[joeblast]

On 11/9/2017 at 0:04 PM, rainbowvein said:

 

Diaphragmatic breathing, while fun, won't elevate your spiritual path. I share this with you from from my own experience.

 

Why not just breathe naturally?  

chuckles....If it doesnt elevate one's spiritual path, then one's method is lacking something.  (Not saying that as a jab towards anyone, it just is what it is, and I cant stress that point enough.)

 

"Breathing naturally" is whatever energy-impulse-dynamic is imprinted upon the medulla.  This energy imprint is trainable, and when its trained in rigorous fashion for a long enough time until the timings are properly attuned, this has tremendous benefits for "deep meditation."

 

If one has not been able to spark their metabolism and activate it by breathwork alone, then one has not done enough work to see a yang line transform to a yin line and then back to the yang line again, which is the basis for any of the i ching related classics.  I still remember Pietro trying to convince me to spend 5000 bucks and attend BK's longevity breathing training in Crete, "because I would have been one of the most advanced in attendance there"...well, why do I need to go spend 5000 bucks to verify that?  I already verified it many times over from my own practice via unmistakable and repeated roadsigns.  But here again, my own experience seems to differ from most others, and the vast majority of everyone else doesnt seem to have put in the work to have realized some things that I have.  (Matter of factly...it does me no good to boast of this...)

 

I know, I know....but the leaves and branches and flowers are so pretty....roots are dull and boring and underground   In that vein, in some sense, Max was a distraction for me.  But that was over 10 years ago and I was ready for more on my plate.

 

 

 

Cleary's description of Turning the Light Around is worth the price of the book.  (Its worth much more, really....that's a cheap book lol)

 

 

Cleary's quote from p125 is not indicative of very well enhanced breathing methods.   Yeah stuff like that will happen if your breath is coarse as fatty mcghee's.

 

 

Keeping one's life stable enough to maintain such energy dynamics whilst staying in society, now that's a different challenge.

[9th]

ejected life capsule observation deck records
rising wheel of fiery lightning based jewels
as spearhead point of cascading legions
descends upon fields of nubile flesh
thrusting directly into the heart of the matter
again and again and again
wielding foregone diagrams and expedient
excellence of expert knowledge on root-cuttings
scaled chains of earthquake tremor worms
striking blackened pit in a haze of ozone
fruitful multiplication of swarming hordes
trampling winds upon waves of marking epochs
bit by bit calculated in cast stone column
devices turning circles by measured degrees
reckoning in the light of its remote eye
blinking steadily with the pulse of pounding
blood rushing towards orgasmic fury
showering sparks of multicolored escape velocity
shattering articles into textbook conclusion
mass confusion of tongues brings hyperspatial bypass
and fleeting chances for rescue
accorded random statistical advantage manipulation
at the last minute by a heart of gold engine
and falling

[thelerner]

On 11/12/2017 at 8:20 AM, joeblast said:

Cleary's description of Turning the Light Around is worth the price of the book.  (Its worth much more, really....that's a cheap book lol)

 

 

Cleary's quote from p125 is not indicative of very well enhanced breathing methods.   Yeah stuff like that will happen if your breath is coarse as fatty mcghee's.

 

 

Keeping one's life stable enough to maintain such energy dynamics whilst staying in society, now that's a different challenge.

I was interested and googled the description.  I found this in a review of the book from Amazon by

Ger Agrey-thatcher 5.0 out of 5 starsTranslated by Thomas Cleary October 11, 2009 https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Golden-Flower-Thomas-Cleary/dp/0062501933

Definitely worth chewing on.

 

 

IV   Turning the Light Around and Tuning the Breath

This doctrine just requires single-minded practice. One does not need to seek experiential proof, but experiential proof comes of itself. On the whole, beginners suffer from two kinds of problems: oblivion and distraction. There is a device to get rid of them, which is simply to rest the mind on the breath.

The breath is one's own mind; one's own mind does the breathing. Once the mind stirs, then there is energy. Energy is basically an emanation of mind. Our thoughts are very rapid; a single random thought takes place in a moment. Inward breathing and outward breathing accompany each other like sound and echo. In a single day one breathes countless times and has countless random thoughts.

So should one have no thoughts? It is impossible to have no thoughts. Should one not breathe? It is impossible not to breathe. Nothing compares to making the affliction the medicine, which means to have mind and breath rest on each other. Therefore turning the breath should be included in turning the light around.

When you sit, lower your eyelids and then establish a point of reference. Now let go. But if you let go absolutely, you may not be able to simultaneously keep your mind on listening to your breathing. You should not allow your breathing to actually be audible; just listen to its soundlessness. Once there is sound, you are buoyed by the coarse and do not enter the fine. Then be patient and lighten up a little. The more you let go, the greater the subtlety; and the greater the subtlety, the deeper the quietude.

Eventually, even the subtle will be interrupted, and the true breathing will appear whereupon the substance of mind will become perceptible. This is because when the mind is subtle, breath is subtle; when mind is unified, it moves energy. When breath is subtle, mind is subtle; when energy is unified, it moves mind. Stabilization of mind must be preceded by development of energy, because the mind has no place to set to work on; so focus on energy is used as a starting point. This is what is called the preservation of pure energy.

Buddha said, "Place the mind on one point, and everything can be done."

If the mind tends to run off, then unify it by means of the breath; if the breath tends to become rough, then use the mind to make it fine. If you do this, how can the mind fail to stabilize?

Generally speaking, the two afflictions of oblivion and distraction just require quieting practice to continue unbroken day after day until complete cessation and rest occur spontaneously. When you are not sitting quietly, you may be distracted without knowing it; but once you are aware of it, distraction itself becomes a mechanism for getting rid of distraction.

As for unaware oblivion and oblivion of which you become aware, there is an inconceivable distance between them. Unaware oblivion is real oblivion; oblivion that you notice is not completely oblivious. Clear light is in this.

Distraction means the spirit if racing; oblivion means the spirit is unclear. Distraction is easy to cure; oblivion is hard to heal. Using the metaphor of illness, one that involved pain or itch can be treated with medicine, but oblivion is a symptom of paralysis, where there is no feeling.

A distracted mind can be concentrated, and a confused mind can be set in order; but oblivion is unformed darkness, in contrast to distraction, which still has some direction.

Oblivion means the lower energies are in complete control, ruling in negativity and darkness. When you are sitting quietly, if you become drowsy, this is oblivion. Repelling oblivion is simply a matter of tuning the breath. The "breath" in this case is respiration, not the "true breathing." Nevertheless the true breathing is present within it.

Whenever you sit, you should quiet the mind and unify your energy. How is the mind quieted? The mechanism is in the breathing, but the mind alone knows you are breathing out and in; do not let the ears hear. When you don't hear it, the breathing is fine; and when breathing is fine, the mind is clear. If you can hear it, the breathing is rough, which means the mind is cloudy. Cloudiness means oblivion, so it is natural to feel sleepy. Even so, the mind should be kept on the breathing.

Just maintain a subtle looking and listening. What is "looking"? It is the light of the eyes spontaneously shining, the eyes only looking inward and not outward. Not looking outward yet being alert is inward looking; it is not that there really is such a thing as looking inward.

What is "listening"? It is the light of the ears spontaneously listening, the ears only listening inward and not outward. Not listening outward yet being alert is inward listening; it is not that there really is such a thing as listening inward.

Listening means listening to the soundless; looking means looking at the formless.

When the eyes do not look outside and the ear do not listen outside, they are closed in and have a tendency to race around inside. Only by looking inward and listening can you prevent this inner racing as well as oblivion in between.

When you sink into oblivion and become drowsy, get up and take a walk. When your spirit has cleared, sit again. It's best to sit for a while in the early morning when you have free time. After noontime, when there are many things to do, it's easy to fall into oblivion. Also there's the need to fix the length of time of meditation; it is only essential to set aside all involvements and sit quietly for a while. Eventually you will attain absorption and not become oblivious or sleepy.

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by thelerner

[joeblast]

What happened to the old editor, this new one is terrible, why cant I just see the code and format it correctly!

 

 

 

Quote

You suppose that attainment is possible in quietude but lost in activity; you do not realize that the reason for loss through activity is because nothing is attained through stillness. When you attain nothing in quietude or lose anything through activity, in either case you have not yet reached the Way.

 

When you have presence of mind, only then do you have autonomy. When you have autonomy, only then can you manage affairs. However, presence of mind is easily interrupted. Practice it for a long time, though, and it will naturally become unbroken. Once it is unbroken, it is continuous. With continuity, the light shines bright. When the light shines bright, energy is full. When energy is full, then oblivion and distraction disappear without effort.

 Lu Yan (829-874)

 

 

the term turning the light around means turning the primary attention from involvement in mental objects to focus on the essence or source of mind.

 

But I find it better to take it literally, again, just as I did with all of the old translations I read on breathwork that led me to merge its concepts with those of neurology - so a simple start on this practice is to turn the light around onto the seat of awareness - the niwan.  Imagine a video of the sun in the sky, with the rays of light extending outward from it.  Now play that movie backwards, situated at the niwan.  Simple.  And so effective that it made signposts which would normally appear at 50, 55 second average breath duration, appear at 35, 40 seconds of breath duration.

This has neurological connotations - what its doing is making uppder dantien specific phenomena happen at a more accelerated rate than if one was just performing breathwork alone.

Of course I dont mean to say that the breathwork is the be all end all of cultivation - merely that its the beginning, the foundation upon which everything rests solidly, and the end - since the breath and awareness eventually overlap so intimately so as to be one and the same.

Its easy to put too much habanero into a dish - but the right meat is extremely flavorful of its own regard, and only require but a little spice.

 

 

 

 

 

Keizan Jokin

, 1268-1325 (Transmission of Light):

“Record of Transmitting the Light” trans. by Francis Cook,page 222, 235

When you encounter the skill of a spiritual teacher and not a single thought arises, this is when you see smoke. If you stop here and rest, it is like stopping at warmth; but if you continue on, you will see fire. This means knowing the One who does not give rise to a single thought... It is called the indestructible hidden body; that body is empty and bright.

 

 

Yondam Yuil

, 1720-1799:

“Selected Works of Chinul” trans. by Robert Buswell

, page 63

To trace the radiance back means to trace the radiance back to the numinous

awareness of one’s own mind. It is like

seeing the radiance of the sun’s rays and following

it back until you see the orb of the sun itself.

 

 

Yangshan Huiji

, 807-883:

“Book of Serenity” case 32, trans. by Thomas Cleary

, page 140

You people should all turn back your light and reflect, do not memorize my words. Since beginningless eons you have turned your backs on the light and plunged into darkness; the roots of your false conceptions are deep.

Edited November 12, 2017 by joeblast
this editor really sucks, the old one was much better. cant even alter a quote span here?? pff

[idquest]

One of the signposts in cultivation is placing shen into qi. When you do subtle breathwork, this is what you do: you place the shen into qi.

[9th]

Changing hands, not changing shovels;
in the black for the black list with five coins dropped.
If six braids wind up for double-helix triple knot,
seven maids milk endless herd of cows. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

I agree that the Semple is a throw directly into the trash. Cleary has actual experience and very clear for westerners to read.He goes out of his way to clear up the mistakes or ignorance of others. 

 

We spend most of our time using the light of awareness in the outside world just turn the light around no holding breath.no method at all return to simplicity.

 

If the mind becomes distracted use the breath to correct. If the breath becomes rough use the mind to correct. Oblivion and distraction are both errors.

 

The method of turning the light around is most simple and direct no need to for breathing methods or energy methods. The true breath arrives in proper meditation. true energy returns when we get all thoughts, methods and systems out of the mind, just be with quite mind,  no thing to do,  spontaneous arriving..

 

There is true light and all will be illuminated when you arrive with no effort  the experience will be complete bliss and peacefulness.

 

 

[joeblast]

20 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

If the mind becomes distracted use the breath to correct. If the breath becomes rough use the mind to correct. Oblivion and distraction are both errors.

 

The method of turning the light around is most simple and direct no need to for breathing methods or energy methods. The true breath arrives in proper meditation. true energy returns when we get all thoughts, methods and systems out of the mind, just be with quite mind,  no thing to do,  spontaneous arriving..

 

There is true light and all will be illuminated when you arrive with no effort  the experience will be complete bliss and peacefulness.

Arriving with no effort, regularly, deeply, every single session.....this is precisely why one should ***master*** anapanasati.  If its not experientially one word, one has a lot of work left to do to reach that basic milestone.

 

The problem is, people arent even getting that basic thing nailed down to its fullest (or even appreciable) extent, and then wonder, when the wind rips that shingle off the roof.  Its mildly annoying reading people disagree with me in principle and then agree with me in their quotations.  I have no real attachment to my correctness, because my experience has already validated it numerous times over, therefore I need no further validation, much less externally so.

 

I suppose I'm wasting my time, but this is why I teach elsewhere and only toss tidbits of information out here and there at this place, where maybe someone might understand what's being said, or at least grok it enough to realize the logic and then go grow the fruit for themselves whereby they can say yes, this is correct.

 

To me its ridiculous to sit there and sit there and wait for something to perhaps maybe arrive, when there are methods to make that something arrive like clockwork.  Hearing someone say you shouldnt force this, I palm my face and wonder why the perspective is that of 'forcing,' when really what this is.....as Qi itself is.....patterning.  Patterning and conditioning, to arrange the probability equations as such so that a desired pattern has a (potentially much, MUCH) higher probability to manifest.

 

Arranging the conditions, as the buddhists like to say.

 

One can either wait for conditions to spontaneously pattern themselves and manifest, or one can diligently arrange the potentials so that the result has a very high probability of manifesting.

 

One will produce a intermittent result, one will produce a well ingrained, patterned, reliable result that comes with excellent regularity.  Because fact of the matter is, if one does not enter into superlative stillness every single session, then one necessarily has a lot more anapanasati to work on.  There's more to the solid yang line transforming to the broken yin line than a little bit of quiescence.

[9th]

TLDR

 

nobody gives a shit

 

do you?

[joeblast]

10 minutes ago, 9th said:

TLDR

 

nobody gives a shit

 

do you?

Why are you replying if you have nothing to add and havent even read what you are responding to?  Go make yourself useful, to yourself, and go practice.

 

Fkn internet trolls, I swear Where's that troll spray again?

[rene]

16 minutes ago, joeblast said:

Where's that troll spray again?

 

[Mudfoot]

They retracted it. 

Bad for the ecology. 

[thelerner]

On 11/9/2017 at 5:15 AM, non-doer said:

As for Golden Flower Meditation, as suggested by J.J. Semple, you do it at the beginning by the 4:4:4:4 diaphragmatic breathing activity, breathing in, holding it, breathing out, holding it, doing for 100 days, and then you start the backwards circular movement.

 

However, what I found in one book (Taoist Meditation) translated by Thomas Cleary:

 

"Some concentrate attention on the breathing, like pumping a bellows. Some focus their minds on counting breaths, trying to take energy in without letting it out. There are a number of such patterns. They can cause dizziness, deafness, reddening of the eyes, distention of the abdomen, pain in the tendons and bones, mental fogginess, nocturnal emissions, and ocher symptoms."

p.125 

 

So I'm confused now, is it meant that the J.J. Semple method is bad for you? Anyone tried it?

 

 

Please help if you have experience or knowledge, and I would be very thankful.

It's a hard subject with widely disparate writers.  The poetry, metaphor and cultural terms lead interpreters on different paths.  Not a bad idea to get familiar with several of them and decide for yourself what works.  That being said, I'd personally side with Cleary over Semple and strive for ever quieter breathing rather then a set breathing pattern.  

 

There's a good chance some of the confusion is because it is incomplete. ie "The firing process is not openly described in the Secret of the Golden Flower, because according to Liu Yiming, one needs to be guided by an enlightened teacher. " from http://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/summary.html  an interesting source. 

 

I've gotten interesting insights from the many different sources I've read, even Osho(!?), but without a teacher, it feels like the Golden Flower has treasure at the end, but is a hard to read map.  My blogged thoughts on it- https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/37570-golden-flower-thingamabobs/